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rocketdrive

Is there any plan to fix HE and fire spam?

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or is the current plan of "complain battleships to role play damage pinyata's and instead kemp island/rock/bush and snipe from max range" the current idea of "the best choice"?

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It's funny that HE spam is considered the current "OP" meta when a few months ago you would be chastised and "reported" if you used HE while driving a battleship at all. Although not all BBs have the chance of setting fires that some of the RN BBs do, they all still have a pretty good chance. For instance my Arizona has a 30% chance of setting a fire and my North Carolina has a 36% chance of setting one, both without any flags mounted. My Queen Elizabeth only has a 35% chance of setting a fire. Not everyone plays tier X games where you will come up against a Conqueror.

Edited by Snargfargle

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4 minutes ago, Snargfargle said:

It's funny that HE spam is considered the current "OP" meta when a few months ago you would be chastised and "reported" if you used HE while driving a battleship at all. Although not all BBs have the chance of setting fires that some of the RN BBs do, they all still have a pretty good chance. For instance my Arizona has a 30% chance of setting a fire and my North Carolina has a 36% chance of setting one, both without any flags mounted. My Queen Elizabeth only has a 35% chance of setting a fire.

you were reported and chastised because it encouraged what I just mentioned. Now theres an entire shipline reinforcing this gameplay. If you went back to when I regularly posted you would actualy get laughed at and called "baBBy" for even thinking that HE was somehow relevant to meta. 

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As long as overmatching deals devastating blows against Cruisers and Destroyers, I hope that the fire and HE spam will stay exactly where it is.

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In the Halloween scenario I shoot HE until I start a fire and then move on. A half-minute later I'll rinse and repeat, never shooting at a ship if another one is not alight. Soon, I begin to hear "You have sunk an enemy ....". In the last game I played I got over 500k damage and 13 kills by doing this. I do the same thing in my Cleveland to a lesser extent. I love setting fires.

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22 minutes ago, SireneRacker said:

As long as overmatching deals devastating blows against Cruisers and Destroyers, I hope that the fire and HE spam will stay exactly where it is.

so to get this right, you find it PERFECTLY FAIR that a single HE hit on ANY part of the ship, including non-damaging hits, can do more damage than a single repair party can heal by one fire alone.

 

Meanwhile I have to be shooting at the right range with you at the right angle with RNGesus giving me the right dispersion to hit the right part of the ship while your ship has the right amount and right layers of armor and the shell is going in at the right angle and right speed in ORDER for me to deal the SAME amount you just did above. you w0t?

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Are HE shells fire spam? Maybe. Fires seem to be a bit OP atm

Does HE fire cumulative damage need examination and alteration? Again, maybe. Fires seem to be a bit OP atm

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Let's see...

Option 1:  Do 20,000 DPM in the form of a DoT most of which is repairable or...

Option 2:  Do 20,000 DPM in instant chunks less of which is repairable...

 

Those breaking 300k damage in a single match in most ships aren't doing it using HE.  It's from either torps or citadels or a combination of both.

 

The problem is the psychological limitation.  Some people obsess over seeing their ship on fire and feel as though they are taking more damage per minute when they actually aren't.

 

It does take skill to know when and when not to pop heals and extinguish fires.  And many players have yet to master that, which is compounding their warped perception.

 

Look at the conqueror's avg damage and win rate.  They are not directly proportionate to the avg damage and win rates of other T10 BBs.  Why?  Because even though the Conqueror is doing more damage, that damage is mostly healed back.  Win rate will also decline as more and more average and below average players finally unlock and pay for the ship.  New T10 ships are only affordable for the most part to top skilled players who have farmed far more free xp than average and below average players and therefore are the early adopters.

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2 hours ago, rocketdrive said:

so to get this right, you find it PERFECTLY FAIR that a single HE hit on ANY part of the ship, including non-damaging hits, can do more damage than a single repair party can heal by one fire alone.

 

Meanwhile I have to be shooting at the right range with you at the right angle with RNGesus giving me the right dispersion to hit the right part of the ship while your ship has the right amount and right layers of armor and the shell is going in at the right angle and right speed in ORDER for me to deal the SAME amount you just did above. you w0t?

 

You are trying to exaggerate there. Yet you are forgetting one important thing. It is about how much damage you take in comparison to your potential hitpool.

 

Let's take a Destroyer at T8, a Benson, vs a Battleship at T8, the North Carolina. Benson has 15.4k hp, North Carolina with two heals has something around 85k hp. We could add Captain Skills and flags now, but it would actually just prove my point even more so I'll just keep them in their stock version for your sake.

Now Benson will lit a fire on NC, and NC will score a penetrating hit on Benson.

A fire on the NC will deal 11.8k damage, or in percentages 13.8% of the ships total hitpool.

A penetrating hit on Benson will deal 4366 damage, or in percentages 28.4% of it's hitpool.

Now I could start adding Premium Consumables, Superintendent and the anti-fire build on the NC and give SE to the poor Benson, but that woukd only make this more extreme.

Fact is, that the NC does not suffer as badly from that one fire as the Benson did from that penetrating hit. Now if we also consider that fires are not instant damage, but rather take their time, and that fires can be directly countered with Captain Skills, Modules and flags (something that you can't do against penetrating or citadel hits), fires are not even closely as scary as a good AP pen.

Edited by SireneRacker
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1 hour ago, Snargfargle said:

In the Halloween scenario I shoot HE until I start a fire and then move on. A half-minute later I'll rinse and repeat, never shooting at a ship if another one is not alight. Soon, I begin to hear "You have sunk an enemy ....". In the last game I played I got over 500k damage and 13 kills by doing this. I do the same thing in my Cleveland to a lesser extent. I love setting fires.

 

I just re-did the 2nd Halloween scenario with the same cruiser but only using AP. My damage was a paltry 200k and I only got 5 kills. I did come in first on a three-star team though.  Like it or not, IFHE and fire-starting is where it's at if you are playing any cruiser with 152 mm shells.

Edited by Snargfargle

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27 minutes ago, SireneRacker said:

 

You are trying to exaggerate there. Yet you are forgetting one important thing. It is about how much damage you take in comparison to your potential hitpool.

 

Let's take a Destroyer at T8, a Benson, vs a Battleship at T8, the North Carolina. Benson has 15.4k hp, North Carolina with two heals has something around 85k hp. We could add Captain Skills and flags now, but it would actually just prove my point even more so I'll just keep them in their stock version for your sake.

Now Benson will lit a fire on NC, and NC will score a penetrating hit on Benson.

A fire on the NC will deal 11.8k damage, or in percentages 13.8% of the ships total hitpool.

A penetrating hit on Benson will deal 4366 damage, or in percentages 28.4% of it's hitpool.

Now I could start adding Premium Consumables, Superintendent and the anti-fire build on the NC and give SE to the poor Benson, but that woukd only make this more extreme.

Fact is, that the NC does not suffer as badly from that one fire as the Benson did from that penetrating hit. Now if we also consider that fires are not instant damage, but rather take their time, and that fires can be directly countered with Captain Skills, Modules and flags (something that you can't do against penetrating or citadel hits), fires are not even closely as scary as a fire.

yes lets call mine an oversimplification and not take into account spotting, RNGesus(dispersion), rate of fire, overpen, bounce, or mutli-fire damage boost. you CAN counter fire damage SLIGHTLY, meanwhile game mechanics HARD COUNTER penetration damage. base mechanics EVERY ship has access to. and dont make the "but mu overmatch" argument cause tell me where overmatching occurs regularly bellow tier 7. Pls do. 

 

While your at it, do tell me how much easier it is to land a FULL PENETRATION HIT on a benson as NC while comparing how hard it is to LIGHT ONE FIRE, not deal he damage, just LIGHT ONE FIRE. Kinda hard to make the "AP is always better in every way" argument now isnt it? There's a reason the RN class HE has more effect on the meta than their heal and it has nothing to do with their on hit damage. 

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39 minutes ago, rocketdrive said:

yes lets call mine an oversimplification and not take into account spotting, RNGesus(dispersion), rate of fire, overpen, bounce, or mutli-fire damage boost. you CAN counter fire damage SLIGHTLY, meanwhile game mechanics HARD COUNTER penetration damage. base mechanics EVERY ship has access to. and dont make the "but mu overmatch" argument cause tell me where overmatching occurs regularly bellow tier 7. Pls do. 

Eeh you do know that game mechanics also hard counter fires? For example that fire chances actually decrease with the Tiers with the fire-coefficient? So actually, when sticking to Benson and NC, the fire chance for Benson is not 5% but something like 3%.

 

Overmatching happens a lot, especially when Battleships face Cruisers. 

Lowest BB Caliber at T6 is 330mm, which overmatches 23mm of armor. So all Cruisers up to including T7 and all DDs get overmatched. And of course T5 BBs.

Lowest BB caliber at T5 is 305mm, which overmatches 21mm of armor, So all Cruisers and DDs in it's MM spread will get overmatched. And of course T5 BBs.

Lowest BB caliber at T4 is 305mm, same applies here.

Lowest BB caliber at T3 is 283mm, which overmatches 19mm of armor. So basically every ship gets overmatched.

 

59 minutes ago, rocketdrive said:

While your at it, do tell me how much easier it is to land a FULL PENETRATION HIT on a benson as NC while comparing how hard it is to LIGHT ONE FIRE, not deal he damage, just LIGHT ONE FIRE. Kinda hard to make the "AP is always better in every way" argument now isnt it? There's a reason the RN class HE has more effect on the meta than their heal and it has nothing to do with their on hit damage. 

 For a full penetration hit you need the DD to be bow-on or running away, or having some hard angling like it would naturally get while trying to dodge shells. Or basically, if you try to evade and get hit the shells are more likely to be full penetrations. So it's in fact the choice for the DD to take the full salvo and hope for overpens, or dodge and hope for not being hit, but if you do you are losing pretty much all of your health since more than one shell will hit.

 

You could do the maths, not that it is that hard...

 

Some base assumptions here:

- We have no anti-fire or firestarter builds. This actually works in your favor since no sane Benson would go for a firestarter build. Not with ships like the Kiev or Akizuki at the same Tier. However Fire Prevention and Damage Control Mod. 1 has become more and more popular.

- We are taking the average hit ratio of the Benson on NA. Now a BB is a larger target, no question, but the Benson will also try and keep some distance if it hopes to gun down the NC. Given the floaty arcs the hit ratio would get worse. 

 

0.6337 x 0.05 = 0.03 or basically 3%.

So we need on average, RNG screwing with you not included, 33 shells hits.

Average main battery hit ratio of a Benson on the NA server is 38%.

Each salvo will therefore hit ~2 shells.

So it's gonna take the Benson on average 17 salvos to lit one fire.

17 salvos, each has a 3.2 second reload, leaves us at 54 seconds for one fire.

 

Or, to sum this up, in the time that is required for the Benson to lit even one fire the North Carolina can fire almost two full salvos. Given the good accuracy of the NC and the sigma of 2.0, any competent NC-captain will land some shells on target.

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British BBs being fire-spammers (that are very hard to citadel) was a poor design choice by WG - it makes for braindead gameplay that isn't reliant on proper angling or positioning.

I have no problem, however, with cruisers or DDs using HE as their primary damage source. They absolutely need it to stay competitive and relevant.

..

Edited by Dr_Powderfinger
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Looking at the replies so far my guess is that the OP is one of those snowflakes who always thinks that they’re right no matter what, considering the arguments and examples some people have made, and if that’s the case:

 

645ECFEE-C3C6-4F55-AB8B-CBB529D60016.jpeg

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4 hours ago, rocketdrive said:

or is the current plan of "complain battleships to role play damage pinyata's and instead kemp island/rock/bush and snipe from max range" the current idea of "the best choice"?

 

3 hours ago, rocketdrive said:

so to get this right, you find it PERFECTLY FAIR that a single HE hit on ANY part of the ship, including non-damaging hits, can do more damage than a single repair party can heal by one fire alone.

 

Meanwhile I have to be shooting at the right range with you at the right angle with RNGesus giving me the right dispersion to hit the right part of the ship while your ship has the right amount and right layers of armor and the shell is going in at the right angle and right speed in ORDER for me to deal the SAME amount you just did above. you w0t?

 

Let me just say this : you complain about RNG because of the angling and dispersion but cruiser also complain about RNG when they land 50+ shells and starting 0 fire or 1 when the repair is active . Here your argument is invalid. And i could also say : you can negate 100% of the damage dealt by HE but cruiser will receive random citadel if RNG decide so.

 

That being said fire deal damage base on a % of your ship total HP. Plus fire can be 100% repaired. If you use your damage control party on a single fire then you're playing your BB wrong. Fire can easily be countered, it just depend on positionning and knowing who are aiming at you. 

-If you're overextended, you die by citadel or fire or torps.

-If you know what ship are aiming at you, then you'll know when you have to endure it and when you can repair. When i face a KGV or a Conq as a Bismarck or Amagi, i'm not repairing 1 fire or 2. I'm looking for some cover and then i repair. Yeah sure 2 fire is troublesome but i would rather endure 2 fire burning for 60 sec than 4 fire fire burning for 60 sec then 2 fire burning until my DCP is back. Same thing when you're against DD at close range.  And if for whatever reason you can't escape then just angle your ship and let the shell hit the burning part of the ship. If you have fire on 1 part, the ennemi cannot start another fire on this same part. And if i'm not wrong, no matter how many HE shell land on the burning part, it will never reset the timer of the fire.

 

Another thing mentioned above : Fire prevention. This skill was totally useless before, now it's to me one of the most important skill to take as a BB, not much because of the -7% fire chance but because of the -1 number of fire on the ship. Starting fire on the superstructure of a BB is easy. Starting fire on the bow or stern of a BB heavily depend on RNG. 

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I played a T9 domination battle last night in my New Orleans. I loaded HE at the beginning of the battle. Normally I like to use cover to fire from but I needed to be in open water with a couple other ships on my team. So with the NO being rather fragile under the weight of main battery shells from Iowas and Bismarks as well as CLs and DD torps, It was a battle at full speed and a LOT of rudder shifting. The enemy tossed nearly 2 million in potential damage at me. I suspect the Ibuki on the other team had a respectable amount of potential damage thrown at him. He was hard to hit. We lost in the end... so be it.

I suspect that a good part of the frustration is in that the folks you are shooting at are doing a pretty good job of doing their level best to not get hit.

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It's simple.

 

You cannot tackle HE spam until you find a way to reduce the power of BBs over cruisers. Otherwise, as HE is the only real option, HE spam is all you're gonna see.

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6 hours ago, Snargfargle said:

North Carolina has a 36% chance of setting one, both without any flags mounted. My Queen Elizabeth only has a 35% chance of setting a fire.

This just highlights one of my greatest pet peeves.  Amidst all the hype and hyperbole about how great RN BB HE is......I see a ton of people that go around spamming HE in their Monarchs.  Unfortunately someone forgot to tell them the Monarch only has average HE and that by firing HE they have lost their hipster status, and in fact are no better than your run of the mill HE spamming potatoes driving around in North Carolinas, Bismarcks and Amagis.

 

5 hours ago, VGLance said:

The problem is the psychological limitation.  Some people obsess over seeing their ship on fire and feel as though they are taking more damage per minute when they actually aren't.

Those psychological limitations work both ways I'm afraid.  Some people obsess over seeing their enemy's ship on fire, and keep firing HE to start more fires, even though they would be better served to switch to AP.

*I am getting better at this, but sometimes I still struggle to suppress my inner pyromanic.  

Edited by yashma

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6 hours ago, rocketdrive said:

or is the current plan of "complain battleships to role play damage pinyata's and instead kemp island/rock/bush and snipe from max range" the current idea of "the best choice"?

Actually I believe they are testing reduced burn time for cruisers and destroyers so yes, they are fixing it.

Battleships are meant to be funeral pyres from a cruiser perspective.

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Oh look. The OP is whining again. What else is new?

 

And it's quite funny everyone is complaining about BB HE now when it's always been this powerful. It's just no one realized it till the Brits kicked down the door.

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46 minutes ago, IronWolfV said:

Oh look. The OP is whining again. What else is new?

 

And it's quite funny everyone is complaining about BB HE now when it's always been this powerful. It's just no one realized it till the Brits kicked down the door.

well to be fair, the RN kicked it up a notch.  they did more than kick in the door.  they did something like this. 

 

 

as for the op.

HE overall is fine.  You can delete DDs and CAs with BBs even if they are angled with decent RNG.  Even if you don't out right kill them, you can cripple them.  They in turn get to rely on some RNG to even start a fire, and it will take a lot of those to kill a BB.  same for torps, if you aren't sailing in a straight line. ..

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