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An Open Letter to WG from DD players (Round 2)

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So a while has passed since Round 1 of this thread. Several patches have been released, and lots of things have changed. Some issues still do exist(Like Radar that can see through islands) while others do seem to have gotten better(BB pens for 3/4 of your HP). This is round 2 and exists for the DD population to express their concerns and issues with current DD play.

As I said, some issues seem to have been for the most part resolved. BB AP pens do seem quite a bit rarer now. Not entirely sure what exactly changed that reduced the frequency here, might be bad aim on the BBs part, might be slightly better dodging on my part, or it might just be RNG. Whatever happened, I'm certainly not complaining about it. On the other hand, we still have other issues regarding DD play. Radar that can see through islands is a big one. The amount of Hydro toting cruisers and even BBs can screw over your otherwise perfect torpedo spread unless the BB captain is a complete idiot. Not to mention catapult aircraft. Not to mention carriers. Among other things.

As it stands, the list of things that can potentially screw you over in a stealth DD is as follows:

  • Random Radar. Sometimes when I get Radared and killed off its my own fault for being stupid. I made a mistake and I paid the price for it. Sometimes you can get lit by Radar randomly and that can screw you over in terms of any sort of surprise attacks. When a Radar CA is parked behind an island has has been undetected for a while, you can never predict exactly where they are with 100% accuracy. And because of this you can never prepare for the Radar, because you didn't even have the slightest warning it was coming. The major issue here is the fact that Satellite Scan Radar can see through islands.
  • An overabundance of Hydro. On a CA you have to swap DF out for Hydro and that seems to be the best approach to addressing this. Perhaps force BBs to swap out Hydro for their heals, or maybe their catapult fighter. Force them to make sacrifices as well. 
  • Random Spotter planes. Especially with the Direction Center for Catapult Aircraft captain skill. 
  • Having a bad CV on your team. If your CV sucks, then the enemy CV can make you effectively useless. The amount of impact CVs can have on a match is astronomical, and if you're the one who has the potato CV on your team prepare to be permaspotted and useless. The CV will spot any torpedoes you fire the second you launch them, not to mention you will likely end up falling under constant fire from the enemy until you die. 

The list does get longer but those other things are mostly things that the DD player themselves can counter. Don't sit still in smoke and get torped. Don't YOLO half the enemy team the second you're spotted for the first time, etc. My suggestions to address these:

  • Range and Duration of Radar is currently fine as is IMO. The main issue is the fact that it can magically see through islands. I'm not gonna go into the whole "realism" argument, because that's just a really dumb argument to go to. I argue that this can give DDs just a tiny bit more margin for error. They are currently either 1 or 2 for the most unforgiving classes to play, and the skill floor to make DDs work well consistently can use every bit of lowering it can get IMHO.
  • As I said, force sacrifices to be made if you want Hydro. Swap it out for DF like on most CAs, and for possibly spotter planes or heals on BBs.
  • See bullet above^^^
  • Decrease the skill floor of CVs and try to reduce the impact a good CV player can have vs a terrible one. WG themselves have made the statement that CVs can have a disproportional amount of impact on the outcome of a match.  

This is just an outline, but typing up a full in depth analysis would honestly take up a very, VERY large chunk of my already limited time. Keep the replies constructive and on topic, please :Smile_smile:

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Just now, Xlap said:

Open letters, here we go again... :Smile_popcorn:

I believe enough time has passed since the last Open Letter fiasco. Either way, as I said do please try to not deviate too much from the topic at hand

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DDs have one of the greatest assets in the game. Concealment.

 

Hydro, radar, planes, etcetera give other ships a chance to counter them. 

 

As a DD main, I think they're quite well balanced at the moment. If you're careless and get caught out of position, you get punished. As it should be. 

 

EDIT: I will agree that BB AP is a bit ridiculous atm. 

Edited by Kombat_W0MBAT
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I've become a destroyer main and, frankly, I don't see any major problems. 

 

Sure, some boats are less fun to play than others. Not every boat is going to be amazing. But really, what's the issue? That occasionally there's radar and hydro? If so, things are great cuz, frankly, I don't see the battleship legions getting any smarter these days. 

 

You don't HAVE to blunder in and contest caps on every battle, especially those with lots of radar/hydro ships.

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You're asking for too much.

 

How are catapult/spotter aircraft "random"? You know they have them. You know they're going to launch them. 

 

If they want to improve CV gameplay they can start by giving T4-5 CV back the ability to strafe and manual drop. At least give them the chance to learn it before being thrown into T7-8 matches. 

 

There is more of an issue with divisions stacking 3 of the same ship. (like insert radar/hydro + smoke ship here )  and just chaining it the entire match. Look at ranked/CW. You got teams literally chaining hydro and radar the entire match covering almost both cap points entirely.  That has less to do with DD gameplay and more with just gameplay in general. 

 

Edited by Vekta408

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Fragile and stealthy vs big and slow. The eternal balancing nightmare of every game ever to feature a fragile, stealthy class. 

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I have some problem with Missouri matchmaking.

 

Current matchmaking tries to separate ships from the same nation to two opposite teams. However, with Missouri, you sometimes tend to have one team with all the Missouris while the other team have all the Iowas.

 

With the increasing number Missouris, this seems to cause a very unbalanced radar distribution. The DDs on team against multiple Missouris and some other radar cruisers will have a very hard time to find room to contribute.

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Missouri was a mistake.  An awesome mistake. but a mistake nonetheless. 

 

Also, whats the deal with BB AP right now for DDs? 

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16 minutes ago, FireAndHEspam said:

So a while has passed since Round 1 of this thread. Several patches have been released, and lots of things have changed. Some issues still do exist(Like Radar that can see through islands) while others do seem to have gotten better(BB pens for 3/4 of your HP). This is round 2 and exists for the DD population to express their concerns and issues with current DD play.

As I said, some issues seem to have been for the most part resolved. BB AP pens do seem quite a bit rarer now. Not entirely sure what exactly changed that reduced the frequency here, might be bad aim on the BBs part, might be slightly better dodging on my part, or it might just be RNG. Whatever happened, I'm certainly not complaining about it. On the other hand, we still have other issues regarding DD play. Radar that can see through islands is a big one. The amount of Hydro toting cruisers and even BBs can screw over your otherwise perfect torpedo spread unless the BB captain is a complete idiot. Not to mention catapult aircraft. Not to mention carriers. Among other things.

As it stands, the list of things that can potentially screw you over in a stealth DD is as follows:

  • Random Radar. Sometimes when I get Radared and killed off its my own fault for being stupid. I made a mistake and I paid the price for it. Sometimes you can get lit by Radar randomly and that can screw you over in terms of any sort of surprise attacks. When a Radar CA is parked behind an island has has been undetected for a while, you can never predict exactly where they are with 100% accuracy. And because of this you can never prepare for the Radar, because you didn't even have the slightest warning it was coming. The major issue here is the fact that Satellite Scan Radar can see through islands.
  • An overabundance of Hydro. On a CA you have to swap DF out for Hydro and that seems to be the best approach to addressing this. Perhaps force BBs to swap out Hydro for their heals, or maybe their catapult fighter. Force them to make sacrifices as well. 
  • Random Spotter planes. Especially with the Direction Center for Catapult Aircraft captain skill. 
  • Having a bad CV on your team. If your CV sucks, then the enemy CV can make you effectively useless. The amount of impact CVs can have on a match is astronomical, and if you're the one who has the potato CV on your team prepare to be permaspotted and useless. The CV will spot any torpedoes you fire the second you launch them, not to mention you will likely end up falling under constant fire from the enemy until you die. 

The list does get longer but those other things are mostly things that the DD player themselves can counter. Don't sit still in smoke and get torped. Don't YOLO half the enemy team the second you're spotted for the first time, etc. My suggestions to address these:

  • Range and Duration of Radar is currently fine as is IMO. The main issue is the fact that it can magically see through islands. I'm not gonna go into the whole "realism" argument, because that's just a really dumb argument to go to. I argue that this can give DDs just a tiny bit more margin for error. They are currently either 1 or 2 for the most unforgiving classes to play, and the skill floor to make DDs work well consistently can use every bit of lowering it can get IMHO.
  • As I said, force sacrifices to be made if you want Hydro. Swap it out for DF like on most CAs, and for possibly spotter planes or heals on BBs.
  • See bullet above^^^
  • Decrease the skill floor of CVs and try to reduce the impact a good CV player can have vs a terrible one. WG themselves have made the statement that CVs can have a disproportional amount of impact on the outcome of a match.  

This is just an outline, but typing up a full in depth analysis would honestly take up a very, VERY large chunk of my already limited time. Keep the replies constructive and on topic, please :Smile_smile:

 

I largely disagree with this; arguing for the removal of the tools that counter your class is never going to go down well. Still, radar through islands is silly given a line of sight mechanic already exists. 

 

But one thing I would like to see is an indicator for the bearing of the ship that is Radaring/hydroing you, so you know which direction to run to try and get out of range. Even if it took 2 seconds for the indicator to display, to give your ship's Detection Finding some time to work it out. This might help reduce the impact of "random radar" as at least you'll know which way it is coming from. 

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You mentioned CVs, I would just give them all the same loadout.  222 starting at T7, each with a slight variation, like IJN gets slightly better torps, USN gets slightly better DBs, the Germans get Deep Water torps.  But like you said bring the skill floor down some so they can be better used.

As for the Radar Cruisers. that needs to be balanced in the MM so each team is facing the same number or very similar numbers.

Only BBs I know that get Hydro are the German BBs T8-10, so you are only affecting one country there.  They have it has they are the brawlers with the secondaries and are going in deep where DDs lay in wait.  And if you are close enough for Hydro to get you, you probably are making a mistake to begin with, has been my experience playing DDs.  And the Tirp doesn't get Hydro in favor of the torps.  Also BBs do not get Defensive Fire that I know.

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14 minutes ago, Vekta408 said:

You're asking for too much.

 

How are catapult/spotter aircraft "random"? You know they have them. You know they're going to launch them. 

 

If they want to improve CV gameplay they can start by giving T4-5 CV back the ability to strafe and manual drop. At least give them the chance to learn it before being thrown into T7-8 matches

 

There is more of an issue with divisions stacking 3 of the same ship. (like insert radar/hydro + smoke ship here )  and just chaining it the entire match. Look at ranked. You got teams literally chaining hydro and radar the entire match covering almost both cap points entirely.  That has less to do with DD gameplay and more with just gameplay in general. 

 

Provide 1 of the 2 skills at T4, so they are learning just 1, then the other at T5, so when a T5 is teamed up with a T6, he has the same abilities as the T6.

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a simple fix before any more discussion would be to fix the overall MM first to some of these issues.

A simple 1 up and one down limit would greatly improve balance. Then T8 DDs would not be facing T10 Cruisers.

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I just want torps buffed. It's hard to hit anything anymore. They're almost useless in CW with the lack of CV making hydro/vigilance standard.

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Just now, gcangel82 said:

Provide 1 of the 2 skills at T4, so they are learning just 1, then the other at T5, so when a T5 is teamed up with a T6, he has the same abilities as the T6.

That would be good. Something, anything just to give them the chance to learn it.

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Just now, Vekta408 said:

That would be good. Something, anything just to give them the chance to learn it.

Ideally I would introduce Strafing at T4, and manual drops at T5, this would force players to learn better positioning of their planes when they start the carrier line, plus make sure it readily available.  I was at T7 when I learn oh hey did you know manual drops and strafes exist?  Documentation is a bit lacking on a line that takes a bit more management to work it.

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There is a reason I abandoned the USN DDs and most of the IJN line despite having ships with 19 point captains and T10 gold camouflage. 

 

Now im running VMF and German DDs. WG has the 5"/38, stealth, and torpedoes in such a mess right now it's not viable to play anything that isn't either Russian or has hydro.

Edited by HazardDrake
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2 minutes ago, HazardDrake said:

There is a reason I abandoned the USN DDs and most of the IJN line despite having ships with 19 point captains and T10 gold camouflage. 

 

Now im running VMF and German DDs. WG has the 5"/38, stealth, and torpedoes in such a mess right now it's not viable to play anything that isn't either Russian or has hydro.

This

 

Though fletcher is still a fine boat. 

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Need to have a torpedo detection ranges reworked

 the new smoke detection ranges for Destroyers though not horrible I think it should be a constant range for all Destroyers that's what we depend on give it back

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3 minutes ago, BlailBlerg said:

This

 

Though fletcher is still a fine boat. 

You know I've been playing CA a lot more these days. I try to play all the classes except CV. Benson and Fletcher are kind of ok. I mess around with an RPF Benson. I use it to set up ships that think they're being sneaky. They pop out of concealment and 5 team mates are waiting for them. It's not the same play style as before all the radar/hydro/double spotter plane movement happened but it seems to work. If nothing else it seems to really annoy people. 

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5 minutes ago, BlailBlerg said:

This

 

Though fletcher is still a fine boat. 

Gun builds died with 6.3, sadly. Now it's torpedo builds with the stock gun fire control. No variety like there used to be. 

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As a primarily IJN DD captain, I have very few issues with the current state of balance between DDs and other classes in general.

However, I am of the opinion that the OP does make valid points in specific areas. Primarily in the area of CV v CV parity of skill, and the impact that particular circumstance has upon DDs. Sold my Shokaku for the second time, because I am just that bad at them, so I have no informed opinion on a solution. I have been THAT tater CV captain(not from lack of effort or desire) and it absolutely hinders friendly DD play in an unbalanced way.

So I would ask WG to address this in any incremental fashion that may balance this out a bit.

The OP's desire for both impenetrable land masses AND a sacrifice for hydro seem a bit much. Fix the radar/hydro land mass issue, and the other becomes much less relevant. Catapult planes can see over islands to a large degree, depending on range. That should be enough. As much as I would personally like this change, I understand that it will most likely never happen. The expense and code to calculate the "cones of shadow" for every active emitter/land mass interaction, and then track them second-by-second does not seem to be something WG would invest in. I hate getting nabbed by the rock-hiding magical mystery CA as much as any DD captain, but that's the way it goes.

The increasing number of high tier players, as the community grows, will continually warrant a change in tactics. The days of clubbing under-skilled premium seals are over. I have witnessed high-tier DDs that shun caps like the plague all game if there is more than one radar CA on the other team.  If/when the radar ships die, the DDs magically come to life and remember their purpose. Tanking brawler BBs are becoming cappers out of frustration(me). It actually works sometimes.

My personal addition to this letter is in regards to gun detection flare. A slight reduction in the amount of time that detection remains at full value would not be amiss. My suggestion is an increasing amount of time exposed as the number of consecutive firings occur. One volley, and the ship goes covert quite quickly. More, and the full detection value remains for a longer period of time.

 

Thanks for your attention.

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As a DD main I have no issue with radar except the preponderance of it in the current CW meta and the ridiculous radar through islands "feature".

They should make islands dark to radars. Other than that radar is fine., I have no issues from a  DD perspective.

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