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Ducc_ducc

deepwater torpedoes are a terrible idea for CVs.

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Alright, since the title was a bit inflammatory, I will try to make a river approved, mild and polite post.

What I mean by the title is that giving a CVs high damage deepwater torpedoes is quite a bad idea, for the reason that they cannot hurt DDs, and do massive damage to CAs and BBs. First off, giving DDs immunity to deepwater torpedoes means that the CV that has them cannot effectively play the objective game like most CVs can (by killing/damaging the DD or resetting the cap). As such, the team that has the CV in a domination/epicenter game mode already has a disadvantage from the enemy team. (assuming of course, that the enemy CV has standard torpedo bombers) This further deepens the problems that people have complained of, those of course being the fact that certain CVs automatically give the team a disadvantage just by playing.

Secondly, the torpedoes alpha damage is crazy, and this is to offset the lack of damage to DDs, but this creates another problem, which is that CAs and BBs are getting destroyed instantly without much of a chance, which is also widely complained about and, of course, no good. And of course, the natural response to what I just posted is that AA will offset this, and in that, we run into another problem, which is, since the alpha damage for the torpedoes is so high, there is much more room for error, and you can lose most of your torpedo planes yet still do massive damage to the enemy warship. This, of course, is a problem, since it creates a situation in which no one is immune from taking massive damage from these torpedoes, and, that will probably create a lot of anger.

EDIT: Missed another point, which is that DDs are the only class that even have a chance at dodging a CV drop, so to remove the ability to damage them with torpedoes, less of a CV's damage is going to be wasted on a DD, which will of course, hurt the other classes more, since they will be taking more strikes every game.

I realise most people will not agree with me, but please try to be civil, and reasonable or I probably won't take you seriously and I will probably post something sarcastic in reply.

Edited by megadeux
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I simply think it's a bit odd for the intended function of DWTs. The idea was to make them easier to hide and harder hitting on BBs.

 

Hint hint, nobody's hiding torpedo bombers. I guess they can't go after cruisers, but this seems to be a little over-specialized.

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3 minutes ago, pewpewpew42 said:

I simply think it's a bit odd for the intended function of DWTs. The idea was to make them easier to hide and harder hitting on BBs.

 

Hint hint, nobody's hiding torpedo bombers. I guess they can't go after cruisers, but this seems to be a little over-specialized.

I don't think I said anything was hiding TBs, so that seems a bit odd to mention, and doesn't seem to be relevant to what I said.

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1 minute ago, megadeux said:

I don't think I said anything was hiding TBs, so that seems a bit odd to mention, and doesn't seem to be relevant to what I said.

I understand, just making another observation.

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hmm? I thought deepwater torps are the things that did ruin it.

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I don't think her damage has ever changed on the torpedoes. So all that has happened is that they lost the ability to hit destroyers.

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Just now, Doomlock said:

I don't think her damage has ever changed on the torpedoes. So all that has happened is that they lost the ability to hit destroyers.

I thought the point of deepwater torpedoes was that they also did more damage.

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5 minutes ago, megadeux said:

I thought the point of deepwater torpedoes was that they also did more damage.

Negative. They simply were way harder to detect, and ran deeper than normal torpedoes this effectively removing destroyers from being able to be damaged by them.

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34 minutes ago, megadeux said:

hmm? I thought deepwater torps are the things that did ruin it.

No, it was people objecting to her deleting DDs. Her torpedo drop pattern was /very/ effective vs DDs, so they removed her torpedoes entirely and left her with nothing but crummy dive bombers. So crummy that they had to pull her from sale and put her back into development. 

Deep run torps are the compromise. She can still hit other ships but can't delete DDs. 

Regardless, GZ is not going to be good against DDs except when they get into secondary range. They don't want her to be. Deep runs are how they are giving her torps while not letting her kill DDs with them. 

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I'm not one who likes the idea of a mandatory loadout on torpedo type.  If we must have them, just like AP/HE, provide an option where standard and deep water torps can be selected when loading.  And not locked at the beginning of the match, but optional while ingame.

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Heads up, this last GZ test, the DWT couldn't hurt CAs either. Only BBs and CVs coud be hit with them....

 

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OP is correct, the two torp squadron drop on a DD is sometimes the only effective weapon a T8 carrier has, when their planes are shredded against almost every other T8-T10 ship in the game. In almost every match a T8 carrier goes up against T10 planes and cruisers or BB leaving the DDs the only target.

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Not a CV player at all but don’t they still have dive bombers even with a torp build?

 

Also, you may not be able to directly damage a DD but as I found out yesterday, a well played AS CV can really ruin my day in a DD! The guy kept me sported with a fighter squadron literally the WHOLE game which meant I was target pretty much the whole game!! Well played CV captain but I called him an a$$ hat more than once in the game (not in chat though)!

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I won't be using any plane modules that have them.

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26 minutes ago, Bravo4zero said:

Not a CV player at all but don’t they still have dive bombers even with a torp build?

Some of the builds tested do not have any DBs, in which case you have nothing that can damage a DD (except thru spotting for teammates as you rightly pointed out)

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5 hours ago, megadeux said:

 

EDIT: Missed another point, which is that DDs are the only class that even have a chance at dodging a CV drop,

I laughed in your face about this. If you know how to play the game at an elementary level you can dodge CV torps.

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Deepwater torps are a bad idea period. 

 

"But they'll hurt big ships more and make them less comfortable to play!" 

 

I think 9 times out of 10, DWT are going to hurt the DD carrying them far more than the BBs they're supposed to target. 

 

Why? Because you lose one of the most powerful knife fighting tools on a DD for dealing with other DDs in caps. 

 

"Here, I'll torp his smoke! Oh wait, nope, nevermind, they won't hit anything or even scare them."

"Oh no, he's launching tops at me! I'll launch mine at him! Oh wait, no I won't, because he'll just laugh and merc me anyways."

 

And it's even worse on carriers... It leaves you with zero tools to deal with an entire class... One of the classes you're meant to counter. 

Edited by Show_Me_Your_Cits
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CV torps are rarely effective against DD's as DD's can dodge effectively. Normally a CV won't drop torps on DD,except in immediate threat emergencies,   so I don't see DWT's matter much there. On the flip side , i don't see any DD's wanting to use these at all, since torping enemy DD's is a big thing. CV player's will use DWT's for BB/capital ship hunting which is what they do anyway with their TB's 

 

Now no idea how they are playtesting these things or not or what planes or ships they plan on being able to arm with these, and it seems they will basically be a anti- BB sniping weapon, which will work against any destroyer being able to use them for "all seasons" , other than that they don't affect DD's much at all. Best way to kill an enemy DD with a CV , is to keep them spotted, given they can dodge CV torps with ease and DB bombs have been nerfed down to being little of a threat to DD's at all , except for the ones down to 1k-2k hp left. (note this does not apply to some premie db bombs, that is different story but those often got better targets to use on too))

Edited by Strachwitz666

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2 hours ago, kerensky914 said:

Some of the builds tested do not have any DBs, in which case you have nothing that can damage a DD (except thru spotting for teammates as you rightly pointed out)

 

Thanks for the update on that mate! Useful to note.

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5 hours ago, Strachwitz666 said:

CV torps are rarely effective against DD's as DD's can dodge effectively. Normally a CV won't drop torps on DD,except in immediate threat emergencies,   so I don't see DWT's matter much there. On the flip side , i don't see any DD's wanting to use these at all, since torping enemy DD's is a big thing. CV player's will use DWT's for BB/capital ship hunting which is what they do anyway with their TB's 

 

Now no idea how they are playtesting these things or not or what planes or ships they plan on being able to arm with these, and it seems they will basically be a anti- BB sniping weapon, which will work against any destroyer being able to use them for "all seasons" , other than that they don't affect DD's much at all. Best way to kill an enemy DD with a CV , is to keep them spotted, given they can dodge CV torps with ease and DB bombs have been nerfed down to being little of a threat to DD's at all , except for the ones down to 1k-2k hp left. (note this does not apply to some premie db bombs, that is different story but those often got better targets to use on too))

No, thats not what CVs do, if you watch the professional CV drivers, most of them will kill the DDs first, since they have the most tactical significance in battle, and it's really not hard to make a DD eat a torpedo.

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11 hours ago, megadeux said:

No, thats not what CVs do, if you watch the professional CV drivers, most of them will kill the DDs first, since they have the most tactical significance in battle, and it's really not hard to make a DD eat a torpedo.

Considering I like to drive both, yea, it is. Nothing better than I like to see is a CV wasting a torp run on me driving a DD. 

Sure on occasion you can clip a DD with one, and if that dd is already damaged you might sink it. 4 out of 5 you won't hit them and half of those don't sink one , so I'd say about 9 times out of ten, a torp run on a DD is a wasted run. And you only got so many per battle. Particular playing US CV's, useful to hit a big ship with 2-3 of a 6 spread rather than maybe clip a DD with 1. There are times it has to be tried, but I don't recommend it. Now IJN CV's since they often have multiple torp squadrons, sniping at DD's becomes more useful, as you got more sorties to run. 

Edited by Strachwitz666

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Really? I would say I hit the DD about 8 times out of 10, so I find them very worth my time, and I kill the DD about 3/4 of the time (the reason the other is higher is because I get multiple runs.)

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8 minutes ago, megadeux said:

Really? I would say I hit the DD about 8 times out of 10, so I find them very worth my time, and I kill the DD about 3/4 of the time (the reason the other is higher is because I get multiple runs.)

We will see. Just started on Kagero, perhaps I will see you out on the battlefield.   On the flip side I(CV)usually  just DB DD's or keep them spotted(that'll sink them ) 

Edited by Strachwitz666

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You get a lot of exp for a solo kill on a DD, and combining that with the tactical threat that DDs assume, as well as the general low risk of the strike, I find them fairly worthwhile targets. 

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