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Crucis

A high tier frustration

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While I'm not in favor of +/-1 tier MM, there is one thing that galls me about high tier battles in tier 8's and that's the existence of the range increasing upgrade modules, particularly for cruisers.  Why?  Because if you play a tier 8 cruiser like the Atago with its range of only 15.8 km, you're in a world of hurt against higher tier cruisers that will grossly outrange you.  It's difficult enough that they will outrange the Atago with their base guns, but that's OK.  It just gets me that just because they're tier 9 (or 10), they get this damned upgrade module that adds yet another 16% to their range.

And in truth, I find the concealment upgrade module at tier 8 to be equally galling.  For example, take the tier 7 Mahan and the tier 8 Benson.  There's a moderate difference between the Mahan and Benson when you don't factor in CE skill or the concealment module.  But add in the tier 8 concealment module and there's a vast gulf between the Mahan and Benson.  This seems rather unfair to me.  In fact, both the Concealment module and the slot 3 range increasing module seem unfair as they are advantages that are available to one tier but not a neighboring tier, when the higher tier ship already has the legit advantages of being of a higher tier.

I personally wish that the concealment module and any of the range increasing modules were removed from the game, and just have whatever each ship's concealment and gun ranges be whatever they are, because without those modules, concealment and gun ranges are much more incremental from tier to tier, and you don't see such great jumps from tier 7 to 8 in DD concealment or tier 8 to 9 in cruiser gun ranges.

Anyways, that's my minor rant about upgrade modules.  Carry on.

 

Edited by Crucis
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I don't disagree with your rant and understand the frustration when in a T7 facing T8, 9 and 10. But isn't that sort of the reward for the grind?

And even +1/-1 MM won't help Mahan in that specific situation.

I also find that most Benson's I meet while in my Lo Yang aren't actually running the full concealment build, either. Not sure how many do but having that concealment mod may have limited impact to the community at large.

Thanks for sharing your rant.

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Getting acess to new ships that also gives acess to new stuff is the point of unlocking higher tier ships. A tier IX or X is supposed to have an advantage over a tier VIII, and a tier VIII is supposed to have an advantage over a tier VII or VI. The trick is not what upgrades or captains skills you have on any given ship, but rather how well you can adapt and adjust your tactics and strategies for different situations; bottom tier vs top tier, winning vs losing, push weak flank or defend your own flank, etc. 

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2 minutes ago, Khafni said:

I don't disagree with your rant and understand the frustration when in a T7 facing T8, 9 and 10. But isn't that sort of the reward for the grind?

And even +1/-1 MM won't help Mahan in that specific situation.

I also find that most Benson's I meet while in my Lo Yang aren't actually running the full concealment build, either. Not sure how many do but having that concealment mod may have limited impact to the community at large.

Thanks for sharing your rant.

Khafni, actually, I don't think that that's a justified reward for the grind.  To me, the "justified" reward for the grind is the higher tier ship itself, and perhaps a somewhat more experienced captain.

And you're right, that +/-1 tier doesn't help with either problem.  Tier 7 DDs will still not have the concealment module, and tier 8 cruisers will still not have the gun range increasing module.

As for the Benson, could it be that many Bensons you're facing have inexperienced captains in them, i.e. lacking the CE skill?  Or perhaps, they're less experienced players who lack the credits to pay for the concealment module?  While I certainly don't have the credit balance of some (often better) players, I'm currently at 62 million credits and can afford to buy any upgrade module on any new ship without a second thought, which honestly I think is a lot nicer than in WoT where credits are so hard to come by.

 

Anyways, I do wish that they'd remove the concealment module and any gun range increasing modules.  concealment and gun range are two things you can't do a damned thing about in battle.  And quite frankly, the last thing this game needs is an excuse for players to snipe away at extreme ranges.  There are many other upgrades that seem a lot fairer, like gun accuracy upgrades, or AA upgrades, or turret rotation upgrades, or steering and engine upgrades.  Those upgrades just don't seem as devastating and unfair to me as the concealment and gun range increasing upgrade modules.

 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, FireAndHEspam said:

Getting acess to new ships that also gives acess to new stuff is the point of unlocking higher tier ships. A tier IX or X is supposed to have an advantage over a tier VIII, and a tier VIII is supposed to have an advantage over a tier VII or VI. The trick is not what upgrades or captains skills you have on any given ship, but rather how well you can adapt and adjust your tactics and strategies for different situations; bottom tier vs top tier, winning vs losing, push weak flank or defend your own flank, etc. 

I disagree.  The point of unlocking higher tier ships should be getting higher tier ships, nothing more and nothing less.  You say adapt, but you can't adapt to enemy cruisers having vastly greater gun range due to a damned upgrade module!  I can deal with a small difference in range that comes from a tier 8 facing a tier 9, for example.  But when it's a tier 8 facing a tier 9 PLUS a gun range increasing module, you're screwed, plain and simple.

Also, if you look at WoT, none of the upgrade modules (or whatever they call'em over there) are linked to tiers.  You can get them at any tier, as long as you have the credits.  Frankly, this would be a marginally acceptable alternative solution to outright banning these items, though it would also represent a potential advantage for more experienced players at lower tiers who could afford to buy expensive upgrade modules for those ships.  I'd rather they were banned since that would avoid this secondary problem.

 

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1 minute ago, Crucis said:

Khafni, actually, I don't think that that's a justified reward for the grind.  To me, the "justified" reward for the grind is the higher tier ship itself, and perhaps a somewhat more experienced captain.

And you're right, that +/-1 tier doesn't help with either problem.  Tier 7 DDs will still not have the concealment module, and tier 8 cruisers will still not have the gun range increasing module.

As for the Benson, could it be that many Bensons you're facing have inexperienced captains in them, i.e. lacking the CE skill?  Or perhaps, they're less experienced players who lack the credits to pay for the concealment module?  While I certainly don't have the credit balance of some (often better) players, I'm currently at 62 million credits and can afford to buy any upgrade module on any new ship without a second thought, which honestly I think is a lot nicer than in WoT where credits are so hard to come by.

 

Anyways, I do wish that they'd remove the concealment module and any gun range increasing modules.  concealment and gun range are two things you can't do a damned thing about in battle.  And quite frankly, the last thing this game needs is an excuse for players to snipe away at extreme ranges.  There are many other upgrades that seem a lot fairer, like gun accuracy upgrades, or AA upgrades, or turret rotation upgrades, or steering and engine upgrades.  Those upgrades just don't seem as devastating and unfair to me as the concealment and gun range increasing upgrade modules.

 

 

 

 

Taking away concealment isn’t going to do anything good for the game. DD lines such as the IJN and USN quite literally rely on concealment for their survival. Taking away the concealment module isn’t going to do them any favors. And because of this, they’re forced to play more passive, because they just lost something major to their survival, not to mention the amount of things that can already screw them over anyways. Radar, hydro, unspotted enemy DDs, random torps out of nowhere, random turns that means your otherwise perfect torpedo spread will miss by a contry mile, catapult fighters and spotter planes, sky cancer. Taking away their concealment will only make them even more susceptible to these things and DDs won’t be nearly as aggressive and won’t push up. Which in turn will mean that nobody else will push up either and will ultimately lead to even more camping 

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1 minute ago, FireAndHEspam said:

Taking away concealment isn’t going to do anything good for the game. DD lines such as the IJN and USN quite literally rely on concealment for their survival. Taking away the concealment module isn’t going to do them any favors. And because of this, they’re forced to play more passive, because they just lost something major to their survival, not to mention the amount of things that can already screw them over anyways. Radar, hydro, unspotted enemy DDs, random torps out of nowhere, random turns that means your otherwise perfect torpedo spread will miss by a contry mile, catapult fighters and spotter planes, sky cancer. Taking away their concealment will only make them even more susceptible to these things and DDs won’t be nearly as aggressive and won’t push up. Which in turn will mean that nobody else will push up either and will ultimately lead to even more camping 

Utter nonsense.  Complete and utter nonsense.  They'll still have the concealment expert skill, which is NOT tier limited.  And if the devs wanted to offset things relative to concealment and the removal of the Concealment module, they could boost the effectiveness of the CE skill a little bit.

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2 minutes ago, Crucis said:

I disagree.  The point of unlocking higher tier ships should be getting higher tier ships, nothing more and nothing less.  You say adapt, but you can't adapt to enemy cruisers having vastly greater gun range due to a damned upgrade module!  I can deal with a small difference in range that comes from a tier 8 facing a tier 9, for example.  But when it's a tier 8 facing a tier 9 PLUS a gun range increasing module, you're screwed, plain and simple.

Also, if you look at WoT, none of the upgrade modules (or whatever they call'em over there) are linked to tiers.  You can get them at any tier, as long as you have the credits.  Frankly, this would be a marginally acceptable alternative solution to outright banning these items, though it would also represent a potential advantage for more experienced players at lower tiers who could afford to buy expensive upgrade modules for those ships.  I'd rather they were banned since that would avoid this secondary problem.

 

I may not really want to but I could live without those upgrades (My poor Lo Yang). Levelling the playing field - or at least not making the slope as large - would make skill more important and I always like that challenge. So, if it matters, you've got my vote...

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1 minute ago, Crucis said:

I disagree.  The point of unlocking higher tier ships should be getting higher tier ships, nothing more and nothing less.  You say adapt, but you can't adapt to enemy cruisers having vastly greater gun range due to a damned upgrade module!  I can deal with a small difference in range that comes from a tier 8 facing a tier 9, for example.  But when it's a tier 8 facing a tier 9 PLUS a gun range increasing module, you're screwed, plain and simple.

Also, if you look at WoT, none of the upgrade modules (or whatever they call'em over there) are linked to tiers.  You can get them at any tier, as long as you have the credits.  Frankly, this would be a marginally acceptable alternative solution to outright banning these items, though it would also represent a potential advantage for more experienced players at lower tiers who could afford to buy expensive upgrade modules for those ships.  I'd rather they were banned since that would avoid this secondary problem.

 

So you’re outranged by another CA. Big deal. Use your other attributes. Use your Atago’s stealth to slip away and reposition to torpedo an unsuspecting BB. Use your Mahan to draw an enemy Benson into chasing you right into the jaws of your team. Learning to work around disadvantages is how you get better. Try being that Fubuki who earns 1.2k base XP on a loss as a bottom tier. Or being the Kutuzov who burns down a triple Yamato division. Try being the Kagero that literally carries your team to victory in a tier X game filled with Radar. Learn to adapt and overcome  

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2 minutes ago, Crucis said:

Utter nonsense.  Complete and utter nonsense.  They'll still have the concealment expert skill, which is NOT tier limited.  And if the devs wanted to offset things relative to concealment and the removal of the Concealment module, they could boost the effectiveness of the CE skill a little bit.

12k games and you’re salty about a couple upgrade modules. Like, why? The point of getting higher tier ships is literally to get better equipment to put on higher tier ships and enhance them. That’s the point of upgrade modules. And higher tier ships have more slots to put better modules in. That’s why people play high tiers. To get every edge they can get over enemies. You try playing a higher tier ship with your range mod you’re so salty about. I bet you wouldn’t be complaining then since you’re on the giing end instead of the receiving end

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6 minutes ago, FireAndHEspam said:

So you’re outranged by another CA. Big deal. Use your other attributes. Use your Atago’s stealth to slip away and reposition to torpedo an unsuspecting BB. Use your Mahan to draw an enemy Benson into chasing you right into the jaws of your team. Learning to work around disadvantages is how you get better. Try being that Fubuki who earns 1.2k base XP on a loss as a bottom tier. Or being the Kutuzov who burns down a triple Yamato division. Try being the Kagero that literally carries your team to victory in a tier X game filled with Radar. Learn to adapt and overcome  

Not "outranged", but outranged by completely ridiculous and unfair margins.

As for trying to play the stealth torping cruiser, get real.  It's just not possible when there are DDs around to get inside of 10 km of enemy heavies until those cruisers have been destroyed.

Stop being such a blind WG fanboi.

 

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2 minutes ago, FireAndHEspam said:

12k games and you’re salty about a couple upgrade modules. Like, why? The point of getting higher tier ships is literally to get better equipment to put on higher tier ships and enhance them. That’s the point of upgrade modules. And higher tier ships have more slots to put better modules in. That’s why people play high tiers. To get every edge they can get over enemies. You try playing a higher tier ship with your range mod you’re so salty about. I bet you wouldn’t be complaining then since you’re on the giing end instead of the receiving end

WRONG!!!!

 

The point of getting higher tier ships is to get higher tier ships!!!

 

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Just now, Crucis said:

Not "outranged", but outranged by completely ridiculous and unfair margins.

As for trying to play the stealth torping cruiser, get real.  It's just not possible when there are DDs around to get inside of 10 km of enemy heavies until those cruisers have been destroyed.

Stop being such a blind WG fanboi.

 

Then stop being salty about something that’s not gonna change. While I don’t play much cruisers, yes, I do main DDs and with my revent IJN DDs grind thru Kagero I’ve spent most of my time as bottom tier yet I still managed to average 70k damage and 1500 XP. Why? Because I can change my tactics according to the situation. Besides that, if your Atago is getting hit by something that’s already outside of your own gun range, plus even further away with a range module then your maneuveribg skills must truly suck indeed

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3 minutes ago, Crucis said:

WRONG!!!!

 

The point of getting higher tier ships is to get higher tier ships!!!

 

And what incentive would that be? Why would anyone even bother past tier VII if that’s the case. Why bother unlocking a high tier ship when said higher tier ship is on even playing ground with a lower tier one? High tier ships are supposed to have equipment that will make them outperform a lower tier enemy. That’s called incentive to play

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point to higher tier is for WG to make moneh.   why there is an incentive to get there with added capability while there is a penalty for cost.      the benefit of t10 is that you are always top tier with strongest ships.         why would WG changes stuff that produces revenue.         

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2 minutes ago, centarina said:

point to higher tier is for WG to make moneh.   why there is an incentive to get there with added capability while there is a penalty for cost.      the benefit of t10 is that you are always top tier with strongest ships.         why would WG changes stuff that produces revenue.         

8ae.gif

So much this^^^

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The range upgrade isn't so cut and dry of an option as you might think. Many captains have to choose between range and reload, and it is honestly a tough decision.

 

The concealment mod is a flat thing, always 10% but it is part of the reward regardless of if you think it or not. Imagine the stupidity of a Nikolai with the reload module, or a Kongo with the range mod. The V-25 with the concealment mod? It is just ludicrous.

 

The reward is twofold, more upgrade slots for better customization, and tactical options. As well as defining your ship. And bigger and better ships.

 

Fair winds and following season captain! :Smile_honoring:

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In the case of the Atago, even though you have 15.8km main gun range, you still have that nice 9.4km concealment, or something around.  At T10, only a Minotaure can catch you offguard.

 

Now regarding concealment module being at T8, I don't have any issue with it. Sure T6 and 7 DD are screwed against T8 DD but it's normal i would say. Better ship allowing to put better modules is something legit. If a Mahan get killed by a Benson because Benson has concealment advantage thanks to a module well I won't complain. Sure the grind is painfull but it's not like you can't skip T7 at all. And most T7 becomes really good in their line. T7 DD are no exception but they all have crap concealment, except for Shiratsuyu but this ship is crap so changing her concealment would not make a huge difference.

About T9 modules in general, my opinion is pretty puch the same as Concealment module. Actually having access to the 3M uppgrade at T9 is a way to improve the quality of life of T9 players. Considering you will often face T10 which can be considered as the best ship of the line, it's a good way to balance power between ships. Also even if a T8 is put in T10 game, they still can still do something: as mentionned above, Atago has great concealment, Chapayev also has a great concealment + radar, Kagerou is the best DD when it comes to concealment, Charles Martel has a really good range...

 

T6/7 facing T8 have a huge disadvantage except for few ship like Hatsuharu but T8 facing T10 still have opportunities. Actually the worst scenario would be a T8-9 game in a T7 ship. And once again it's the issue have -2/+2 MM.

 

On a side note, ships like Atlanta has access to radar, even though they are T7, Belfast has access to both radar and concealment module at T7. It show how WG is concerned regarding powercreep and MM

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6 hours ago, Khafni said:

I don't disagree with your rant and understand the frustration when in a T7 facing T8, 9 and 10. But isn't that sort of the reward for the grind?

 

And that's what you get for trying to fit a grindy progression system into a game where it doesn't belong.

 

The only reason a tier system exists in this type of game is because it's a cheap and simple way of presenting a problem that players can pay past.

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I am not sure about issm, but i haven't freexp'd any ship at t8 or higher. heck, I even stock grind now.  I have done some at lower tier, but since the freexp ship I save my freeXP.    i have almost enough for nelson saved up, but probably keep going till I have more for musashi. 

 

=it is possible to grind through and frankly, I still do alright.  monarch as bottom tier in stock ship was still playable with 16km range even without CE (I just got enough captains point to get it)  12km conceal was usable by using cover.   heck, I have more issues with FDG  than monarch.

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15 hours ago, FireAndHEspam said:

And what incentive would that be? Why would anyone even bother past tier VII if that’s the case. Why bother unlocking a high tier ship when said higher tier ship is on even playing ground with a lower tier one? High tier ships are supposed to have equipment that will make them outperform a lower tier enemy. That’s called incentive to play

Nonsense.  There are no tier-limited upgrade modules in WoT, and yet people grind for and purchase high tier tanks.  You'll have to do MUCH better than that.

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4 hours ago, Crucis said:

Nonsense.  There are no tier-limited upgrade modules in WoT, and yet people grind for and purchase high tier tanks.  You'll have to do MUCH better than that.

Why pay higher repair costs and make less money playing a ship that has an equal power level to a ship a preceding tier. Higher tiers encourage people to pay for premium time and/or premium camo and thats how WG makes a good deal of their money outside of fancy premiums. Speaking of premiums, why aren’t you complaining about Atlanta or Indy having RADAR AT TIER VII? Wouldn’t that give these ships an edge against other cruisers that don’t have it, especially tier V foes? Why aren’t you complaining that the Belfast has access to the tier VIII concealment module not to mention smoke, hydro, and radar all in one? Premium content is how WG makes the money, and since sales of premium time and camos for higher tier play makes up a good deal of their revenue, changing higher tier ships to be equal to lower tier ones would force them to drastically increase the costs of ships and other things fo make up for it. Nobody will play high tiers, because they have nothing new to offer. 

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