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What was WOW thinking: Smoke detection change nerfs entire RN CA line

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Rant on. 

 

The RN CA line is all but useless after the smoke detection change.  Reference the nose dive in stats for the Neptune.  Spend time and money (e.g. captain retraining/skills) to work up this line and WOW nerfs a primary tool of this entire line.  If I wanted a more POS ship than the Baltimore I'd just play the POS Baltimore.  Thanks for nothing WOW. 

 

Rant off.

 


Ships on North-American server
When: All Time
Icon    Name    Tier    Type    Nation    Battles    WR ▼    Dmg    XP    K/D    Sh☠    Pl☠    Srv    MBH    TH      
    Saint-Louis    9    CA/CL     France    86,549    52.13%    59,472    1,476    1.2    0.7    1.5    38%    32%    6%
    Dmitri Donskoi    9    CA/CL     USSR    379,333    51.50%    54,096    1,391    1.2    0.7    1.4    40%    32%    6%
    Neptune    9    CA/CL     UK    470,589    51.27%    51,065    1,422    1.2    0.8    2.4    32%    30%    5%
    Roon    9    CA/CL     Germany    655,830    50.62%    49,265    1,344    1.1    0.7    1.3    40%    31%    7%
    Ibuki    9    CA/CL     Japan    675,194    49.91%    47,923    1,304    1.1    0.7    1.4    40%    30%    4%
    Baltimore    9    CA/CL     USA    883,659    49.13%    36,722    1,280    0.8    0.6    2.2    33%    32%    0%

 


Ships on North-American server
When: Last 2 Weeks
Icon    Name    Tier    Type    Nation    Battles    WR ▼    Dmg    XP    K/D    Sh☠    Pl☠    Srv    MBH    TH        
    Saint-Louis    9    CA/CL     France    5,857    52.30%    57,107    1,409    1.1    0.7    1.1    37%    31%    6%
    Dmitri Donskoi    9    CA/CL     USSR    12,548    51.36%    54,894    1,377    1.1    0.7    1.0    38%    32%    6%
    Roon    9    CA/CL     Germany    16,393    50.73%    55,104    1,369    1.1    0.6    0.8    40%    32%    7%
    Baltimore    9    CA/CL     USA    23,724    50.27%    38,541    1,250    0.7    0.5    1.3    30%    33%    0%
    Neptune    9    CA/CL     UK    18,864    50.07%    47,008    1,317    1.0    0.7    1.8    30%    28%    5%
    Ibuki    9    CA/CL     Japan    13,536    49.42%    48,645    1,293    1.0    0.6    0.9    37%    31%    4%
 

 
Edited by nhf

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I've not been around for more than a few months, but this change was one of the most long-deliberated and expected  changes to the game and the impact on DDs and smoke cruisers was absolutely minimal, except for Cruiser drivers who like to run in to point blank range, smoke up and expect to be invisible.

 

Even before the change, that's called 'suicide by radar'. Even more likely at that range it was 'suicide by torpedo', because your smoke bubble is small enough even a Soviet DD will have your milkshake. 

 

I bought the Kutuzov and am getting into the Leander and I see this change as mostly beneficial as in, "Get the hell out of my smoke bubble you so-and-so Battleships!" With a Neptune, I wouldn't effing smoke up to shoot within 10km of anything with radar anyway, and with Kutuzov more like 14km, because when throwing fire I don't like to be interrupted by radar detection, followed by focus fire by 5+ of the enemy team. 

 

All of that is exactly the same environment as before the smoke changes. If I had to change my tactics because of the smoke nerf, it says more about my lousy choice of engagement range than about the changes to smoke. 

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Maybe you should give it some time for people to get used to the change before teeing off.

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Hey bud, those stats are only slightly reduced from how they used to be. So, this means those ships are still very viable. You're just mad because you can't abuse a game mechanic to blast away with impunity anymore, which explains the reduction  in battles played as well, other people who can't actually play, and abused the mechanic.

 

Learn. Adapt. Overcome. If you can't, head on out to another game that's less taxing for you.

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You're doing it wrong in a RN cruiser if this nerf is significant.  Simply by adjusting to the new rules people in the Neptune in particular should do better, not worse. Sitting in smoke banging away in a large cruiser at close range is just begging to get devastatingly stricken back to port.

The buff that's coming to smoke generation duration more than makes up for a buff that should barely effect a well played RN cruiser.

In any event, even if this as a nerf to the RN line, it's a good change overall for the game and worth it.

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20 minutes ago, K538 said:

You're doing it wrong in a RN cruiser if this nerf is significant.  Simply by adjusting to the new rules people in the Neptune in particular should do better, not worse. Sitting in smoke banging away in a large cruiser at close range is just begging to get devastatingly stricken back to port.

The buff that's coming to smoke generation duration more than makes up for a buff that should barely effect a well played RN cruiser.

In any event, even if this as a nerf to the RN line, it's a good change overall for the game and worth it.

I went to radar on both Minotaur and Neptune, and play them like IJN CAs without radar. Concealment and positioning are now primordial when playing RN CLs. Belfast, a premium ship which I own, I play the same way for the simple reason that firing from smoke is an invitation to instant delete, as she has no torpedoes. As good as she is, I now regret the purchase. I clearly stated in another thread that if smoke was nerfed, then the RN CL line needed Perth's HE in compensation to stay competitive. RN armor has been screwed up since day one in any case. I stand by those statements. If I play my Perth and there is a radar ship on the red team, smoke is used strictly to cover my retirement to someplace else! The workaround is premium radar, hydro, and teamwork, something that is sorely lacking unless you play in divisions. Aside from DDs beyond 4km, smoke is dead as a tool except, as usual, for high-tier Russians. Pure crap.

 

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Like I said, if you're hit by this nerf in a dramatic way then you're probably doing something wrong...  I haven't noticed any significant changes at all except when driving other nations cruisers or battleships and in that respect it's a good change.

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2 hours ago, nhf said:

Rant on. 

 

The RN CA line is all but useless after the smoke detection change.  Reference the nose dive in stats for the Neptune.  Spend time and money (e.g. captain retraining/skills) to work up this line and WOW nerfs a primary tool of this entire line.  If I wanted a more POS ship than the Baltimore I'd just play the POS Baltimore.  Thanks for nothing WOW. 

 

Rant off.

 

Just as I've replied to you in another discussion - there's very little to none difference between 1 and 2-week stats and only minor difference compared to all-time, but then it could be attributed to just power creep by baguettes. Also the situation is very different on different servers, some see a slightly bigger change, some see almost none at all.

 

Personally, I'm playing my Edinburgh and haven't noticed any change at all. And seriously, if someone smokes up in such a position to be spotted in the smoke, they're doing it wrong.

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Nerf?!? What are you smoking OP!!!

 

I play both Neptune and Minotaur and only need to worry about ships coming within the bloom radius.

 

To avoid ships getting within the smoke spotting area you need good DDs to spot or set up a little further back to melt away their XP.

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35 minutes ago, GrandAdmiral_2016 said:

I went to radar on both Minotaur and Neptune, and play them like IJN CAs without radar. Concealment and positioning are now primordial when playing RN CLs. Belfast, a premium ship which I own, I play the same way for the simple reason that firing from smoke is an invitation to instant delete, as she has no torpedoes. As good as she is, I now regret the purchase. I clearly stated in another thread that if smoke was nerfed, then the RN CL line needed Perth's HE in compensation to stay competitive. RN armor has been screwed up since day one in any case. I stand by those statements. If I play my Perth and there is a radar ship on the red team, smoke is used strictly to cover my retirement to someplace else! The workaround is premium radar, hydro, and teamwork, something that is sorely lacking unless you play in divisions. Aside from DDs beyond 4km, smoke is dead as a tool except, as usual, for high-tier Russians. Pure crap.

 

You know what you just said with all that?

 

You said you are clueless as to how to play RN cruisers, and you said you have no idea how to work around radar.

 

Were I you, I'd be rethinking just what the "pure crap" actually is.

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I've noticed almost no noticeable change in my DDs or CAs. But I wouldn't do something suicidal like smoke super close to opponents either.

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3 hours ago, TheKrimzonDemon said:

Belfast, a premium ship which I own, I play the same way for the simple reason that firing from smoke is an invitation to instant delete, as she has no torpedoes. As good as she is, I now regret the purchase.

 

You can sell the Belfast and get refund in doubloons for a limited time.

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I think the British Cruisers were already nerfing themselves long before the changes with this double edged sword. Half of them get found by torpedo's after they pop smoke :cap_haloween:

Edited by Magic_Fighting_Tuna

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15 hours ago, TheKrimzonDemon said:

You know what you just said with all that?

 

You said you are clueless as to how to play RN cruisers, and you said you have no idea how to work around radar.

 

Were I you, I'd be rethinking just what the "pure crap" actually is.

Ship           Random Games      Win Rate

Black Swan        72                          58%

Weymouth            4                          50%

Caledon              24                          50%

Danae                 19                          68%

Emerald                 5                          40%

Leander               95                           60%

Fiji                      118                           46%

Edinburgh             55                           49%

Neptune                58                           55%

Minotaur                11                           64%

 

I need not say more, it would be impolite.

Edited by GrandAdmiral_2016

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2 hours ago, GrandAdmiral_2016 said:

I need not say more, it would be impolite.

that was an overshare, as is.

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7 hours ago, GrandAdmiral_2016 said:

Fiji                      118                           46%

 

How did you f that  up?

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35 minutes ago, geser98 said:

 

How did you f that  up?

Grinding to Fast Eddie, which I then ground to Neptune. Same thing for both, really. I had a ton of lost games in Fiji and Edinburgh playing with potatoes where I was top of team. You can only do so much with potato salad....I would go for a Belfast in her mid-WWII North Cape configuration without radar but with HE in a split second. Perth multiplied by two for gunnery. IMHO it would make the ship better than she is now, played at T8 instead of T7.

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The effect of the smoke nerf is in the data.  Damage and XP are what matters because if teammates pickup the slack of a weak(er) ship to pad win % that's immaterial.  Since the smoke nerf, all other T9 CAs remained the same or improved EXCEPT the Neptune.  The Neptune dropped from a strong third to second the last.  The Neptune is a more POS Baltimore with the smoke nerf because its AP simply cannot do damage relative to damage it takes (due to horrible armor) once spotted, made worse by its poor rudder shift, shatter-prone shells with horrible float at range and added detection.  All DDs need to do is get within 6.6km of smoke, and with a spotting distance of 10.4km on the Neptune that's not hard to do.  The stats since the smoke nerf show all this.

 

All, Neptune  (10/28/2017) 
Damage: 51,065   
XP: 1,422

 

2 Weeks, Neptune (10/28/2017)    
Damage: 47,008 (-8%)   
XP: 1,317 (-7%)

 

And, the smoke nerf nerfed the entire RN CA line, excluding Belfast because it has effective HE:

 

All (10/30/2017)
    Minotaur    66,725    1,622    
    Neptune        51,015    1,420    
    Belfast        46,610    1,390    
    Fiji        41,231    1,201    
    Edinburgh    40,394    1,284    

 

2 Weeks (10/30/2017)
    Minotaur    63,808    1,567    
    Neptune        46,555    1,309    
    Belfast        47,470    1,381    
    Fiji        37,847    1,118    
    Edinburgh    36,988    1,197

Edited by nhf

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Well, let's just wait and see what happens after the upcoming buff.

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14 hours ago, nhf said:

The effect of the smoke nerf is in the data.  Damage and XP are what matters because if teammates pickup the slack of a weak(er) ship to pad win % that's immaterial.  Since the smoke nerf, all other T9 CAs remained the same or improved EXCEPT the Neptune.  The Neptune dropped from a strong third to second the last.  The Neptune is a more POS Baltimore with the smoke nerf because its AP simply cannot do damage relative to damage it takes (due to horrible armor) once spotted, made worse by its poor rudder shift, shatter-prone shells with horrible float at range and added detection.  All DDs need to do is get within 6.6km of smoke, and with a spotting distance of 10.4km on the Neptune that's not hard to do.  The stats since the smoke nerf show all this.

 

All, Neptune  (10/28/2017) 
Damage: 51,065   
XP: 1,422

 

2 Weeks, Neptune (10/28/2017)    
Damage: 47,008 (-8%)   
XP: 1,317 (-7%)

 

And, the smoke nerf nerfed the entire RN CA line, excluding Belfast because it has effective HE:

 

All (10/30/2017)
    Minotaur    66,725    1,622    
    Neptune        51,015    1,420    
    Belfast        46,610    1,390    
    Fiji        41,231    1,201    
    Edinburgh    40,394    1,284    

 

2 Weeks (10/30/2017)
    Minotaur    63,808    1,567    
    Neptune        46,555    1,309    
    Belfast        47,470    1,381    
    Fiji        37,847    1,118    
    Edinburgh    36,988    1,197

 

So comparing two weeks worth of stats when players are still adjusting to the changes to historical records (year + of data) makes total sense doesn't it.

 

Wait until there's several months of data to see how the change has impacted the line.

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On 10/31/2017 at 1:22 PM, 1SneakyDevil said:

 

So comparing two weeks worth of stats when players are still adjusting to the changes to historical records (year + of data) makes total sense doesn't it.

 

Wait until there's several months of data to see how the change has impacted the line.

Actually, I suspected the "player adjustment" to only make it worse for the RN CA line as unspotted DDs learn they just need to charge smoke with impunity.  This is what I've started doing in DDs vs. RN CA smoke and it works.  Again, the data supports this as the RN CA line continued its decline, though it appears to have slowed now, resulting in a approx. 6-10% net nerf across the RN CA line due to the smoke nerf:

 

2 Weeks (11/2/2017)

    Minotaur    62,770    1,559    
    Belfast        47,291    1,382    
    Neptune        46,325    1,309    
    Fiji        37,287    1,111    
    Edinburgh    36,433    1,191

Edited by nhf

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We'll have major changes to RN smoke in 0.6.13. Let's just wait and see.

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