T-61: Potential Super Ship

[JochenHeiden]

So unless something changes dramatically with the upcoming Tier 6 Premium Ship T-61, I see this being an absolute super ship more than capable of handling a Tier 8 uptier.  It has Tier 8 levels of concealment, Tier 7 gun reload, Tier 9/10 torpedo reload built in without commander skills as is.  Assuming it doesn't change in stats, I'll be buying this monster!

[JochenHeiden]

For those of you unfamiliar with this ship:

[Lert]

Tier 7 gun reload on tier 4 levels of firepower. Tier 9/10 torpedo reload with tier 5 torpedoes.

It's looking like a good ship yes, but 'super' ship? I don't know ...

[Goose21891]

Or they could just buff the Ernst Gaede.

[Khafni]

8 hours ago, JochenHeiden said:

For those of you unfamiliar with this ship:

Looks like a good ship at the moment. I can make "T4" firepower work  with "T7" reload quite nicely. Let's see how it balances. Thanks for the preview.

[JochenHeiden]

Hardly Tier 4 firepower considering the V-170 has 4x 105mm guns and does quite well with them at Tier 4!

[geser98]

12 hours ago, JochenHeiden said:

So unless something changes dramatically with the upcoming Tier 6 Premium Ship T-61, I see this being an absolute super ship more than capable of handling a Tier 8 uptier.  It has Tier 8 levels of concealment, Tier 7 gun reload, Tier 9/10 torpedo reload built in without commander skills as is.  Assuming it doesn't change in stats, I'll be buying this monster!

 

Based on what you showed I can see that:

- She has low HP (for a German DD). 2k less than upgraded Gaede

- She's fat and will eat a lot of full AP pens

- She's slow

- Crap turret traverse, HE alpha and shell velocity

- 90k HE dpm compared to Farragut's 135k

- 1k lower HE dpm compared to Gnevny, but awful arcs so actual dpm will be significantly less

- 22.5k lower HE dpm than Leberech Maass, so your argument of "T7 firepower" is invalid

- Also probably the standard awful German fire chance of 6% for this caliber so with DE it will have the same fire chance as Gnevny without DE

- She will also have torpedo DPM 10k lower than Shinonome and 20k lower than Fubuki, but better than Hatsuharu, a ship that certainly needs a lot of love from WG

 

 

So, it has some good points like god-tier concealment and torp reload. But then she really needs it, because she can't compare to Farragut in dpm, only if you get a broadside target that you can shoot AP at. She has awful German smoke and she can be chased down by a Furutaka with speed flag. Looks quite balanced to me, not OP by any stretch of imagination.

 

She'll probably get a hydro, so will be good at capping.

 

 

[tmGrunty]

- Your "low HP" is still better than anything at T6 except the Gaede. 

- 830 m/s is the standard German velocitiy and nowhere near bad.

- DPM is basically irrelevant as you won't be gunfighting another DD in the open due to hydro.
- This is a torpedo boat with much better torps than any of the IJN DDs at that tier have.

- The "she is fat and eats more AP thing" is basically a myth for all DDs and needs to stop

 

I think the previous poster has never played any German DD so far otherwise he would not brought his "arguments" because they don't hold in actual play.

 

T-61 looks like a better Gaede which already is the best non-premium T6 DD in the game.

[BrentD15]

Is there any history to the T-61?

Was it an actual ship or just a fake/what-if?

[geser98]

1 hour ago, tmGrunty said:

- Your "low HP" is still better than anything at T6 except the Gaede. 

Read what i wrote carefully:

10 hours ago, geser98 said:

- She has low HP (for a German DD).

German DDs are fat, tend to eat a lot of full AP pens and need more HP than other lines. T-61 will have significantly less HP than Gaede, so sort of low FOR A GERMAN DD. Also being mostly a torp bote probably people won't spec into SE.

1 hour ago, tmGrunty said:

- DPM is basically irrelevant as you won't be gunfighting another DD in the open due to hydro.

It's one of the potential sources of damage so it's not irrelevant.

1 hour ago, tmGrunty said:

I think the previous poster has never played any German DD so far otherwise he would not brought his "arguments" because they don't hold in actual play.

I have played KM DDs. On my RU account. In fact I'm on Gaede right now.

[tmGrunty]

6 hours ago, geser98 said:

German DDs are fat, tend to eat a lot of full AP pens and need more HP than other lines. 

Again this is a total myth. German DDs do not eat more AP pens than other destroyers in the game.

 

Regarding SE. Almost all German DDs should spec into this because there is not much else that is useful to spec in. This is especially true for torpedo boats.

But then again this is NA server and people here do not believe in SE. I'm always astonished by the amount of even IJN DDs without that skill

 

Oh and regarding your DPM calculations. HE DPM really doesn't matter for German DDs. You are shooting AP most of the time anyway or you are doing it wrong.

 

7 hours ago, BrentD15 said:

Is there any history to the T-61?

Was it an actual ship or just a fake/what-if?

It is a 1940 type torpedo boat build by the Dutch for the German Kriegsmarine after the capitulation. It was layed down in 1942 and launched in 1944.

So not a fake ship but a real one.

[geser98]

1 hour ago, tmGrunty said:

Again this is a total myth. German DDs do not eat more AP pens than other destroyers in the game.

 

Not sure which source you will accept as proof, but I'm quoting from WoWS wiki page on German DDs: "These ships can be vulnerable to enemy aircraft spotting or attacking them. In addition, their wide hull makes it very easy for enemy cruisers and battleships to penetrate with armor-piercing shells, doing more damage than expected. A German destroyer captain must keep these weaknesses in mind when operating in a battle. "

 

Also, you probably know that post German DDs have highest health pools for their respective tier, sometimes much greater than competitors, yet their average survival rates based on server stats are middle of the pack. And with T9-10 DDs, all of them tend to take a lot of full pens, except the Japanese.

 

I think WG is planning to change this mechanic, so that DDs can't possibly take BB pens, but not sure when it's going to happen.

 

1 hour ago, tmGrunty said:

Regarding SE. Almost all German DDs should spec into this because there is not much else that is useful to spec in. This is especially true for torpedo boats.

 

But of course. Except a torpedo boat, especially German, with a hydro, if played right shouldn't be gunfighting in the open and the extra HP is a waste of 3 points. How about these torpedo boat builds:

http://shipcomrade.com/captcalc/0100000000110011001001000000000119

http://shipcomrade.com/captcalc/1100000000000011001001100000000119

or even...

http://shipcomrade.com/captcalc/0100000000010001001001000000001119

 

1 hour ago, tmGrunty said:

HE DPM really doesn't matter for German DDs. You are shooting AP most of the time anyway or you are doing it wrong.

Well, yeah. That is, if you have a flat broadside to shoot at. Also the normal tactic for all torpedo boats (and carriers for that matter) is to hit someone with torps, force repair and then set a perma-fire. So you've got to mix a bit of both.

 

 

[Uber_Ghost]

Every mid tier and up KM DD (with perhaps the exception of the Gaede and Z-23, but not really if you play them correctly. But, that's another subject entirely) are jack-of-all-trades boats.  KM DD's should cap...and win that cap.  It is their greatest strength.  In fact, the ability to dominate DD caps increases proportionally with each tier culminating in the Z-52's dominance.  Accordingly, SE is a vitally important skill for any capper to take.  The survival rates for KM DD's reflects the inherent dangers in their greatest strength.  It is not a reflection of the viability of SE.  The key importance of SE is to be able to win HP trades.  It's a strong skill...although one could argue that other skills might be more beneficial if one does not intend to play the ship as the cap monster that it can be.  I think one would be foolish to not run it on the Z-46 or Z-52 though.

 

For example....when in the Z-52, the primary things I look for at the start of each match is radar ships, CV's, and other Z-52's.  These factors impact how I approach each match like none other.  A SE equipped Z-52 is at a significant advantage over one that is not.  I will win that cap.  They will bail...or die.  Tbh...I don't see many Z-52's without it anymore.

 

As for full pen damage, I've found it to be very rare to the point of insignificance.  And, with the upcoming changes, the issue will be extinct. 

 

Also, you employ AP as much as you possibly can...with HE as a fallback or when setting a fire is more important...which is highly situational.  You can absolutely murder things with AP.  Hitting multi-citadels on Minotaurs is one of most favorite things in this game.  And, unlike other DD's, you actually try to setup broadside firing angles as a main tactic.  For me, it was like a light turned on when I figured out when and where to use it...and I use it often...on almost everything.  Granted, you don't get as much mileage on it in the lower tiers.       

 

Finally, I believe tmGrunty is speaking from experience...and a lot more than I have.  He's been running the KM line for awhile and has generated a very polished list of DD captain skills...for all DD's.  The current stat sources we have to settle for are great for very generalized opinions.  But, they lack the specificity to actually prove a point like the viability of SE.  As with most things, experience is the best tool.

[geser98]

Ok then. So let me get this straight. The biggest strength of KM dds when it comes to capping is the combination of smoke + hydro. You get into the middle of the cap, get spotted, spot red dd in turn, pop you smoke and hydro and now enemy DD can't even delay your capping while hydro is active, because hydro covers practically the entire cap circle. If you have to fight enemy DD when capping, you do it from the safety of smoke screen. So only things that can hit you is blind fire into the smoke or, if you're very special, a torpedo, which shouldn't happen thanks to hydro. 

 

The rest of the game you use your concealment and super-quick torpedo reload to harass and disrupt enemy advance. With torpedoes. From stealth. And you don't gunboat, because you're not a great gunboat. You use your smoke when you want to gun someone down.

 

So how useful is SE with this play style? OK, at T10 you get 3500 hp up to the grand total of ~24k. So, extra HP will help you survive a torp hit from Shima's Type 93 mod 3...barely, with like 300 HP remaining. But then you're doing something wrong. You shouldn't really get hit by torps in smoke.

 

If you get lit up by radar in the smoke, this extra HP will help you survive 3 extra hits with Des Moines HE. Or a couple extra salvos from Khaba. 

 

So, at the end of the day, I'm not saying it's completely useless, but being best torpedo boats in the game - and German DDs are best torp boats in the game, especially high tier ones - you shouldn't rely on extra HP to save you. There are other useful 3-point skills you might opt to take instead. 

 

Also the SE argument runs counter to what tmGrunty said earlier. As you may recall, I commented that T-61 has low HP for a German DD, almost 2k less than same tier Gaede, to which he/she responded that it's enough. But then, if all German DDs benefit greatly from SE, it will still be left in a very disadvantaged position, where T-61 with SE will have about the same HP as Gaede without one. 

 

50 minutes ago, Uber_Ghost said:

As with most things, experience is the best tool.

 

As skill sets are tuned to play style, there are no cookie-cutter builds. It all very much depends on your play style. So, in that sense, I can agree with you, but in the generalised version - no. Science and stats are best tools always. People's thought process is very biased by default. Personal experience in science is often referred to as "anecdotal evidence".

 

 

 

[tmGrunty]

14 hours ago, geser98 said:

But of course. Except a torpedo boat, especially German, with a hydro, if played right shouldn't be gunfighting in the open and the extra HP is a waste of 3 points. How about these torpedo boat builds:

http://shipcomrade.com/captcalc/0100000000110011001001000000000119

http://shipcomrade.com/captcalc/1100000000000011001001100000000119

or even...

http://shipcomrade.com/captcalc/0100000000010001001001000000001119

 

Honestly this builds are all horrible for torpedo boats. Would not recommend any of those to anyone.

Why do you need skills like EM or DE on a torpedo boat. In fact DE is one of the the most overrated skills anyway, especially for a German DD.

 

In my opinion there are only 2 good pure torpedo boat builds.

this: http://shipcomrade.com/captcalc/1000000000000001011001000000000119 (mostly for German DDs with SI für additional Hydro)

that: http://shipcomrade.com/captcalc/1000000000000001011000000000001119 (mostly for IJN DDs with TRB)

Depending on the torps and stealth of the ship you finish off with either Adrenaline Rush or Torpedo Acceleration.

There are of course some hybrid variants (like swapping out TAE for BFT) which I like to run myself especially on German DDs. But for a pure torpedo boat build SE is a must as 13th point (after TAE and CE).

 

I also did not say that T-61 HP is enough. All I said that it is still the 2nd highest of all T6 DDs. More HP is of course always better. But saying that the 2nd highest HP of its tier is a weakness is just wrong.

 

And yes German DDs are great torpedo boats (not the best though) and they have good concealment. Yet they aren't the best in that regards and you will get spotted from time to time by another DD or planes or sometimes radar. 

It also takes time to slow down and get concealed in smoked when you pop it and during that time you will get shot at. You WILL lose HP in German DDs if you play them correctly so SE is definately a skill you should have.

 

P.S. The Wiki definately is not a reliable source for game mechanics. 

 

 

 

[mofton]

She looks pretty solid to me.

The guns are not as good as Farragut's for anti-DD work, but are - depending on the situation - better than almost everyone else's. You can probably still beat up any of the IJN DD up close, beat up Gnevny with better ROF/traverse up close, beat up Gallant with better ROF offsetting lower HE shell damage, shell arcs are a bit better than Farragut if you have a bit of range over him.

Torpedoes wise the reload is 17s per tube. Gallant gets 24s per tube. The IJN get 25.3s but get 9 torpedoes for Shinonome and Fubuki.

That's utterly insane. In 10 minutes (rounding down for full reloads) you'll get 64 torpedoes into the water, Gallant will get 48 and the IJN 63. That's with the IJN giving up a heck of a lot else and triple tubes are normally a huge advantage.. Gallant just looks outright bad.

Concealment is great, 6.8 beats the Fubuki/Shin at 7.02 each, basically equals the 6.84 Gallant, beats the 7.56 Farragut (meaning you get over 0.7km of warning of the only T6 DD that outguns you) and who even cares on Gnevny. Only the Hatsuharu has significantly better concealment at the expense of having only 6 torpedoes.

6.8km concealment will turn into about 6.0km with CE/camo, giving a completely usable 2km stealth torp window, with the fastest 8km torpedoes in the tier. In addition her handling is pretty rock-solid at a 600m/3.6s radius/rudder. That beats the Japanese again and although it's not the best handling matters on torpedo boats as you need to do some pretty hard maneuvering to stay out of detection range and best use your torpedoes. One of the Gaede's downsides is 690m turning circle.

Looks very solid to me.

[Uber_Ghost]

Agreed.  Any non-gimmick dependent,  solid premium DD is a no brainer for me.

[tmGrunty]

Actually the 6.8km concealment listed is already with camo equipped.

The base concealment is 7.02km and gets down to 6.1km with CE and camo.

[JochenHeiden]

I run survivability expert on ALL of my destroyers regardless of role.  The extra HP is the sometimes the difference between life and death no matter what you're doing.  This is my Z-52 build, for example, and I'll let the stats tell you how well it works.  I run it as a torp boat with guns that work well.

 

As for the T-61, I stand by my original statement that this will be a super ship at Tier 6.  None of the arguments presented here thusfar have changed my mind on that!

[thehelmsman]

T-61 is going to be the strongest all-around tier 6 destroyer for sure, unless something changes. Great concealment, great torps (with epic fast reload, even), reasonable maneuverability, and decent guns, PLUS Hydro on top of all that. It's better than Gaede at pretty much everything except sheer ability to punish broadsiding cruisers with AP.

I rather liked Gaede (which seems to be an unpopular opinion), but this thing makes it completely pointless.

--Helms

[Uber_Ghost]

12 hours ago, JochenHeiden said:

I run survivability expert on ALL of my destroyers regardless of role.  The extra HP is the sometimes the difference between life and death no matter what you're doing.  This is my Z-52 build, for example, and I'll let the stats tell you how well it works.  I run it as a torp boat with guns that work well.

 

As for the T-61, I stand by my original statement that this will be a super ship at Tier 6.  None of the arguments presented here thusfar have changed my mind on that!

The internal and eternal struggle between TAE vs AR continues. I run the same exact Captain skills...although I’ve been running AR instead. I’m not sure it matters much, but it drives me crazy between those two choices.

Btw...I can’t imagine anyone who has run this line will not purchase the T-61. Now, they just need to generate a Z-23 replacement. I did not dislike either the Gaede or Z-23, but they simply aren’t similar enough to the line for me to fully embrace them...

[AnimaL21]

I think I will buy it just to train up my v-25 captain.  

[Slyv]

And this weekend is German destroyer weekend....      

[2Floods1Ship]

On 10/28/2017 at 0:43 PM, Lert said:

Tier 7 gun reload on tier 4 levels of firepower. Tier 9/10 torpedo reload with tier 5 torpedoes.

It's looking like a good ship yes, but 'super' ship? I don't know ...

German torpedoes don't get much better damage then that. And German dd's don't really do HE well, it's the AP that's the nightmare. 65 knot torps with a 1.1 km stealth envelope stock, even better upgraded, with a 68 second reload is nothing to sneeze at. My Z52 torps reload that quickly with every upgrade other then Adrenaline Rush, do marginally more damage, and only have .4 km and 9 knots on these guys.

 

These torps hold up fairly well. 

[JochenHeiden]

So the CC's have started reviewing the T-61, and the general consensus, thus far, and as I predicted, is that this thing is a OP super ship.  I hope it doesn't get nerfed prior to release, but the entire Kriegsmarine tech tree has been power crept into oblivion and we deserve and REQUIRE a jewel such as thing to make reparations.