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Captain_Doll

Pick The Italian BB Line

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I've had a blast playing the Giulio Cesare. So, I've been thinking a lot about the Italian BB line and have been wondering where the various ship classes will fall within the ship tree. Here are my picks:

Tier 3:Dante Alighieri. This 22 knots Battleship was armed with 12 12 inch guns. She might be a little overpowered at tier 3 depending on how accurate her guns are in game. She might be a better fit at tier 4.

Tier 4: Leonardo da Vinci. The Vinci was a Conte di Cavour–class battleship but was never modernized because it was sunk in 1916. Because she was never modernized, she had an extra triple turret on the center line of the ship. Moreover, she was much slower than her modernized sisters, clocking in at only 21 knts. I think she'll fit nicely at tier 4.

Tier 5: Conte di Cavour–class battleship. This makes sense to me since Cesare is already at tier 5. I don't know how WG will distinguish the Cesare from Cavour.

Tier 6: Andrea Doria class. This ship was an improved design over the Conte di Cavour class battleships. Although she had the same shell size as the Cavour, her turrets could elevate to 30 degrees instead of 27 degrees. Further, the Andrea Doria class had better AA armament. After playing the Cesare in tier 7 matches, I feel Doria's guns will be fine at tier 6, 7, and 8. However, due to her gun size, I can see WG wanting to place her at tier 5. We'll have to see.

Tier 7: Francesco Caracciolo-class battleships. This was the Italian answer to the British Queen Elizabeth class. Armed with 8 15 inch guns, this planned design could clock in 28 knots. Although she appears to be a better fit at tier 6, WG could take a great deal of liberty in modernizing the Caracciolo, putting her in line with the other tier 7 battleships. Indeed, Doria and Cavour demonstrate that Italy spent a lot of $ modernizing their fleet (almost complete rebuilds). Caracciolo already has the speed and guns to compete at tier 7.

Tier 8: Litorrio Class- This one is easy given Roma is coming in as a tier 8 premium. There are some visual differences between the Litorrio and Roma. How the ships will be distinguished by WG game play wise remains to be seen.

Tier 9: Unknown.

Tier 10: Unknown.

 

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Don't be too hasty to draw conclusions about the rest of the battleship line based on Gulio Ceasare.   Look at how different Warspite is from the rest of the line.

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5 minutes ago, TheDreadnought said:

Don't be too hasty to draw conclusions about the rest of the battleship line based on Gulio Ceasare.   Look at how different Warspite is from the rest of the line.

I'm not going to deny it, I felt in a small way cheated out of purchasing the Warspite; upon the release of the RN battleship lines. 

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5 minutes ago, TheDreadnought said:

Don't be too hasty to draw conclusions about the rest of the battleship line based on Gulio Ceasare.   Look at how different Warspite is from the rest of the line.

 

Yeah I tend to agree.  I think we might have a flavour of a few things, but the Cesare is a heavily modernized version of a dreadnought and not really a "normal" tier 5 ship.

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15 minutes ago, TTK_Aegis said:

Did Italy have any paper ships that would be T9 and T10? Anyone got any info on those prospects? 

 

Found a couple older posts/articles about a possible Italian tech tree. One possibility for T9 is the "Up.41" design proposed by an Italian designer for the Soviet navy (9x16", 32kts, 42,000 tons standard, 14.57" belt). Nobody seems to have any ideas for T10 though.

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3 minutes ago, Middcore said:

 

Found a couple older posts/articles about a possible Italian tech tree. One possibility for T9 is the "Up.41" design proposed by an Italian designer for the Soviet navy (9x16", 32kts, 42,000 tons standard, 14.57" belt). Nobody seems to have any ideas for T10 though.

Maybe we can just give Roma a magic mushroom and make it bigger like Mario. 

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There's this too.

I think using a modernized/unmodernized pairing of Cavour and Doria classes in some combination for T4 and T5 is pretty sensible.

Otherwise Dante is too powerful at T3 (12 guns, just about the fastest, not the worst armored). Caracciolo could be described as an 'Italian Queen Elizabeth class, only faster' and is therefore a realistic T6.

Litorrio's a clear 8 to me (though maybe Monarch muddies the waters slightly) and there will need to be design-only ships at T7, T9 and T10 which I'm less familiar with. 

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1 hour ago, TTK_Aegis said:

Maybe we can just give Roma a magic mushroom and make it bigger like Mario. 

Only if it happens at the start of every match you play, and the proper sound effect is used.

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Sorry if this sounds too aggressive, but:

 

Dante Alighieri at tier III is an almost guaranteed 'no' at this point. She's best suited for tier IV, and especially now that we know Courbet won't be comings a tier III, that's more than enough to tell us no. It's also worth noting that the guns Dante is armed with, the 12"/46's, are some of the most powerful 12" guns every build (not including the far more modern guns found on Alaska), firing a 452 kg shell with a MV of 840 mps. In both damage and penetration, it's going to pack a serious punch and have a large advantage over other 12" guns found at these tiers. She's basically going to be a less OP Nikolai

 

The most likely pick for tier III will likely be the first dreadnought design, which is simply known as "Cuniberti's 17,000t design." It's the genesis of dreadnoughts, twelve 12" guns total with an eight-gun broadside. It was never built, but it's a good fir for tier III.

 

Tier IV could go to Dante, although there's a fair chance it could go to the Cavour-class as built, especially as Dante is probably a very enticing premium option for WG. Cavour would have the same guns, but be able to fire thirteen to a broadside, five fore or aft. Speed would be decent but not spectacular at 22 knots.

 

Tier V, for the sake of some variety, is far more likely to go to the Caio Duilio-class as rebuilt than the Cavour, as she would only ever be a clone of Cesare. The Duilio class featured slightly superior armor (shouldn't be significant in-game, in fact she loses the 85mm bow-in-a-bow of the Cavour-class, which is kinda a nerf), and much better AA with a battery of 10x1 of the much more modern 90mm AA guns compared to the Cavour-class's 4x2 battery of old 100mm guns. In exchange, she drops a knot of speed, although technically when forcing the machinery both this class and the Cavour-class could hit 28 knots.

 

Tier VI is somewhat up in the air, but for simplicity's sake the Caracciolo-class seems like a likely pick as she was to be a contemporary of the Queen Elizabeth and Bayern classes. The firepower is a bit hard to calculate, but it was still a 4x2 design with 381mm guns. The guns were uncharacteristically low on MV, only 700mps. Tis is 32mps slower than Warspite's guns, although the shell is 5 kg heavier. Penetration still should be superior at medium to long range versus Bayern's higher-velcotiy (820mps) but very light (800kg) shells. The fact she can make 28 knots should help balance things out, as her armor otherwise should be reasonably on par with the other tier VI super-dreadnoughts in-game.

 

could see a heavily modernized design fitting at tier VII, but it would probably have to see some significant AA improvements, perhaps some armor changes, and the guns would certainly have to be swapped out. We've seen what putting old guns on even fast and reasonably protected BBs does - look at the Hood. Perhaps it would be best to swap them out of Littorio's guns, featuring a longer reload? However, there are better options, and the Caracciolo we see at tier VI would already see some kind of modernized B-hull, à la the Bayern, which would probably take cues from the rebuilds of the earlier classes.

 

At tier VII, there are quite a few options that were played with in the lead-up to the designing of the Littorio-class, protects with 305mm, 320mm, and 343mm guns. However, if we get a 381mm gun dreadnought at tier VI, we'll probably not want to drop the caliber size down. One design that stands out to me in particular is what is essentially to Littorio as Gneisenau is to Bismarck, which seems quite fun (The Gneisenau would probably be tougher and have better secondaries, but the Italian 381mm gun will hit a lot harder then the German 380).

 

Tier VIII is pretty obvious; Littorio.

 

Tier IX isn't that hard either. Even as Littorio was designed, other designs were in existence, including 16" gun designs. Littorio was a product of a 'we need something that works, sooner rather than later,' as a 16" gun ship would take much longer, Italian industries not having experience with building guns of that caliber yet. Regardless, the most well known version of this is what was tuned to Russian preferences and designated UP.41. This Italian 16" gun ship would be a 'beefed-up' Littorio, 3x3 16"/50 guns that would hit like freight trains (god help us if they run with the /56 guns).

 

Tier X... well, that's the most filed with unknowns, but there's some stuff that'll work. Demon93IT (Deamon93 on EU) found a design known only as the "4-16/16-40" a 29 knot design that has four quad 16"/56 guns and a 16" sloped belt (with a 50mm outer plate). There's always the possibility WG just does a Hindenberg/Großer Kurfürst/Henri IV and just makes the tier X a super-Littorio. She could could probably get away with still only having a 3x3 armament of the 16"/56, as they'd pretty much be the most powerful guns in the game, period. They'd fire a 1350 kg shell at a MV of 850 mps. For perspective, the American 16"/50 fires at 1225 kg shell @ 762 mps.  All you need to do is set buff up the armor, AA, and then let the power plant run at the maximum it was never reached irl (even in trials), or heck, maybe they pop in a even more powerful power plant. Perhaps a lower reload to offset the lack of guns. Either way, it'd be very powerful. But that's just speculation, if WG can't find anything better.

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Caio Duilio will probably be Tier IV as much as I hate to say it, just to save time modeling. The plans for modernizing da Vinci after salvage can provide a possible second hull if need be. However we are taking tier IV. 

 

https://stefsap.wordpress.com/2016/03/09/rn-leonardo-da-vinci-rebuilding-plans/

 

There are several 320mm armed plans for a tier VI alternate as well as battlecruisers with 343 to 381 for tier VII. Although I’m not a fan of the mod 34 at VII. 

 

Now let let me read what phoenix wrote. My iPad ate half my original post and want to see if it is worth the effort to continue. :cap_like:

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@Phoenix_jz

 

I'm not really a fan of the 381/50 mod 34 below tier VIII. My limited understanding is most of the pre-Littorio projects with 381mm outfits where to re-use the 381/40. Caracciolo seems destined to be a bow angle and burn everything that doesn't WASD style of play.

 

I'd kind of be interested in the mini-me Littorio with 3 x 3 320/44 might be an option at tier VI. Bottom option.

maricominav-4-e-5.jpg?w=648&h=588

 

The 1928 BC and follow on designs do seem promising for tier VII. I'd love to see if the 343/55 can serve as a frankenstein option for these instead of a 381/50 mod 34 nerfed into the nine circles of hell.

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5 hours ago, Phoenix_jz said:

Tier X... well, that's the most filed with unknowns, but there's some stuff that'll work. Demon93IT (Deamon93 on EU) found a design known only as the "4-16/16-40" a 29 knot design that has four quad 16"/56 guns and a 16" sloped belt (with a 50mm outer plate). There's always the possibility WG just does a Hindenberg/Großer Kurfürst/Henri IV and just makes the tier X a super-Littorio. She could could probably get away with still only having a 3x3 armament of the 16"/56, as they'd pretty much be the most powerful guns in the game, period. They'd fire a 1350 kg shell at a MV of 850 mps. For perspective, the American 16"/50 fires at 1225 kg shell @ 762 mps.  All you need to do is set buff up the armor, AA, and then let the power plant run at the maximum it was never reached irl (even in trials), or heck, maybe they pop in a even more powerful power plant. Perhaps a lower reload to offset the lack of guns. Either way, it'd be very powerful. But that's just speculation, if WG can't find anything better.

Muzzle velocity was specifically chosen to preserve barrel life. At 850m/s it would of dropped drastically to around 150-175 rounds instead of the 300 the cannon were rated for. 870m/s would be worse still. Just saying because your post reads like an insinuation that the Americans built inferior cannon when it was simply a matter of making the guns last longer.

 

Also where are you getting shell weights from? Italy never made a 16" gun or round and the only thing close, which is what I assume you're using, is the Russian 16" (Italy had a hand in its design) which fired a 1100kg round.

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16 minutes ago, ksix said:

Muzzle velocity was specifically chosen to preserve barrel life. At 850m/s it would of dropped drastically to around 150-175 rounds instead of the 300 the cannon were rated for. 870m/s would be worse still. Just saying because your post reads like an insinuation that the Americans built inferior cannon when it was simply a matter of making the guns last longer.

If anyone's wondering this really made a difference too, when USS Houston sank she'd fired about 260-280 rounds per gun, going down fighting and her barrel liners were almost gone - they'd been displaced and were protruding an inch out of the ends of the barrels. If she'd only been able to fire 150-175 she'd have been useless far before that point.

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12 hours ago, SparvieroVV said:

@Phoenix_jz

 

I'm not really a fan of the 381/50 mod 34 below tier VIII. My limited understanding is most of the pre-Littorio projects with 381mm outfits where to re-use the 381/40. Caracciolo seems destined to be a bow angle and burn everything that doesn't WASD style of play.

 

I'd kind of be interested in the mini-me Littorio with 3 x 3 320/44 might be an option at tier VI. Bottom option.

maricominav-4-e-5.jpg?w=648&h=588

 

The 1928 BC and follow on designs do seem promising for tier VII. I'd love to see if the 343/55 can serve as a frankenstein option for these instead of a 381/50 mod 34 nerfed into the nine circles of hell.

 

To be totally honest, I could see either working, probably better than Caracciolo and Gneisenclone. I agree the Model 34 being below tier VIII is probably a bad idea, the only reason I think it would work on the Gneisenclon his that there's only six of them. However, using a 320mm design at tier VI and than one of the 343's at tier VII could be quite unique, although my only concern would be that we'd have to find a way to work around the overmatch issue at tier VII *flashback to KGV drama*. In this case, Caracciolo could always be made a tier VI premium, which would work pretty neatly considering how differently the guns behaved.

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11 hours ago, ksix said:

Muzzle velocity was specifically chosen to preserve barrel life. At 850m/s it would of dropped drastically to around 150-175 rounds instead of the 300 the cannon were rated for. 870m/s would be worse still. Just saying because your post reads like an insinuation that the Americans built inferior cannon when it was simply a matter of making the guns last longer.

 

Also where are you getting shell weights from? Italy never made a 16" gun or round and the only thing close, which is what I assume you're using, is the Russian 16" (Italy had a hand in its design) which fired a 1100kg round.

 

I'm aware of why lower MV was a priority of American ships. I'm sorry you read my post the way you did, because that was absolutely not the intention, and nor do I think I even gave any hint of suggesting that. The reason I referenced the 16"/50 Mk.7 to compare is because it's the most powerful 16" gun ever to see service, and it's one of the most powerful guns in-game at the moment. Much of that has to do with the shell being fired (SHS), which is why I wanted to stress the power we'd be seeing in the /56, an even heavier shell at an even higher MV.

 

As for shell weights, the /50 is going to be pretty similar, but would use a native Italian shell rather than the Russian one (I don't know what the Russians were doing, but their official estimate of penetration as listed on Navweaps was 16" at 13.6 km, something that even the conservative Italian tables from 1942 list the 15"/50 as being able to do at around 20 km). I don't know the exact specs of the shell myself. The same goes for the /56, which I only know the basic specs for (406/56, 1350 kg shell @ 850 mps), but it was listed in designs. I know of them, but I've never personally seen the data, only heard of it from others. @Aetreus I think has more data on them.

 

11 hours ago, mofton said:

If anyone's wondering this really made a difference too, when USS Houston sank she'd fired about 260-280 rounds per gun, going down fighting and her barrel liners were almost gone - they'd been displaced and were protruding an inch out of the ends of the barrels. If she'd only been able to fire 150-175 she'd have been useless far before that point.

 

To be fair, that's an 8" gun, which is a different story from a 15" gun. If we're looking at the Italian 8" guns the barrel life is probably a lot closer to the 300 rounds that is listed for the German 8" gun (not sure if it would be lower of higher, the German gun used a slightly higher MV, at least after the MV was dropped on the /53, but a slightly lighter shell).

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19 minutes ago, Phoenix_jz said:

To be fair, that's an 8" gun, which is a different story from a 15" gun. If we're looking at the Italian 8" guns the barrel life is probably a lot closer to the 300 rounds that is listed for the German 8" gun (not sure if it would be lower of higher, the German gun used a slightly higher MV, at least after the MV was dropped on the /53, but a slightly lighter shell).

Ah right, well 300 rounds on a Zara means shooting your entire magazine twice if wikipedia's 157 rounds/gun is correct. That's probably more than enough.

I've never been so 'worried' for battleships, if you shoot your entire magazine dry then you're headed to port anyway and if you're in a sea battle and you've fired off 74 rounds per gun and the enemy's neither sunk nor you are you have bigger problems! With a life of 110-130 for the 381/50 1934 the ratio seems to hold again, 2 magazine changes to one barrel change.

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Germans had a different approach to the naval rifle construction. Iirc this meant barrel wear wasn’t as bad however re-lining was a major process. The British at least with the KGV rifles had moved on to new techniques as well. The Italians went with more of a brute force or over engineering approach. 

 

Thats my my fuzzy memory recollection at least. :Smile_ohmy:

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On the RU forum, in a detailed discussion thread on Russian BB's, developer ArdRaeiss made some comments regarding choices for other BB lines including the Italian BB line. Google translate may not be entirely accurate, and these are probably just preliminary thoughts from a developer as opposed to final decisions, but his comments are still interesting.

 

In this post, ArdRaeiss seems to confirm Littorio as the Tier 8, and strongly implies UP41 as the Tier 9. Further, he seems to imply that there are no viable historical choices for the Tier 10, although he doesn't explicitly state it.

 

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fforum.worldofwarships.ru%2Ftopic%2F61069-%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%BA%D0%B0-%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%82%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D1%85-%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%BA%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2%2F%3Fdo%3DfindComment%26comment%3D3656753

 

In this post, he states that even considering paper designs, WG views the choice for the Italian Tier 10 BB as problematic. 

 

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fforum.worldofwarships.ru%2Ftopic%2F61069-%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%BA%D0%B0-%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%82%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D1%85-%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%BA%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2%2F%3Fdo%3DfindComment%26comment%3D3656714

 

These are just my interpretations, using Google translate. Maybe someone who can speak Russian can clarify.

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I'd say the likelihood of an Italian 16"/56 caliber gun appearing in the game is the same as the odds of getting a USN 16"/56 caliber gun. Not very likely although I wouldn't mind being wrong. Yet a ship with 16 of such guns is easily way overpowered for T10. Hell just imagine the balancing problems you'd get if you replaced the 16"/50s on the Montana with 16"/56s. And that is only 12 guns!


At around the same time the 2,700 lb Mark 8 AP was developed an even heavier 16" shell was tested but rejected for various reasons. I'd imagine the Italians would have run into the similar problems had they pursued such a super-super-heavy shell. The Mark 8 seems to be close to the upper limit of what can be achieved with that caliber.

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I'll just be happy if the real Italian BB line can hit the broadside of a barn. 

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45 minutes ago, Lampshade_M1A2 said:

I'd say the likelihood of an Italian 16"/56 caliber gun appearing in the game is the same as the odds of getting a USN 16"/56 caliber gun. Not very likely although I wouldn't mind being wrong. Yet a ship with 16 of such guns is easily way overpowered for T10. Hell just imagine the balancing problems you'd get if you replaced the 16"/50s on the Montana with 16"/56s. And that is only 12 guns!

16"/56 guns sound like interesting weapons that would be appropriate for a tier 10 BB.

If the tier 9 ship is going to be this UP.41 proposal with nine 16"/50's, then a tier 10 "Super Littorio" with nine 16"/56's would probably work just fine at tier 10, especially since they can adjust balance quite a lot by tweaking other stuff (like giving it Kurfurst-grade secondaries or a Conqueror-grade Repair Party if it needs the boost.)

Proposals for 16-gun super battleships will probably have to be discarded for the same reasons the Germans don't get H44 as their tier 10.  WG made the decision to just define the Yamato class as the baseline for a tier 10 BB and balance the tech tree around that, the same way they decided to make the Des Moines the baseline tier 10 cruiser.

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