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Dr_Krickett

How do we judge over-powered?

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In every game i have played it is the class (or in this case) ship type that is played the most... i know I will be met with resistance but that is ok as noone wants to lose ANY power.

Yet Battleships are the most played ship type in this game. heck last game a total of 16 of the 24 ships were battleships with 2 carriers 2 DD's and 4 Cruisers making up the remaining ships. 

In almost every typical game (yes this is not a typical game thank god) it is usually 10-12 battleships per match.

 

but in all cases it seems that BB's are representing over 50%+ of all the ships types being played per match on average. When 50% of any games population is playing a specific class (or in this case ship) then there is a problem that needs to be looked into. 

 

Now this is NOT to say BB's are in fact OP it could very well be that the rest of the ships are under powered and need buffs to their damage/HP's or abilities to be brought back in line with BB's.

 

My issue with BB's are as follows:

1: they are one of the ONLY ships in the game that can show broadside to any ship (other then another BB) and laugh at them no other ship can do that.

2: The damage output of BB's are insane (seen BB's 1-2 shot other boats *including other BB's*) 

3: Sure rate of fire is much slower then other ships but the potential damage output of a BB is much higher then ANY other ship in the game over that same 30 seconds. 

4: Health pools are insane and they have health abilities that give them a decent of health back (no DD and very few cruisers get that) which makes no sense seeing they are easier to kill then BB's are.

 

Now these are just a few items I wanted to bring out and again not saying anything is wrong with BB's specifically BUT when compared to other ships they seem to be over-powered and seem to have the best of both worlds all in one nice little (or big) package. 

 

So I am asking the community to help determine WHY BB's are played more then ANY other ship line and lets be fair here and unbiased because that is the ONLY way we can hopefully get a better balanced game.

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BBs are far from OP.

But to answer your question...BBs are played more because they are BBs.  People want that big capital ship with the big guns!

Going further...
1.  You contradict your #1 point with your second point.  BBs have their glaring weaknesses like other ships.  A broadside BB doesn't last long.
2.  Damage output of CVs can easily outweigh that of BBs.  
3.  Potential doesn't translate into effective damage.  Example: Japanese DDs.  Their potential damage with their torpedo spreads doesn't translate into that exact amount of damage.
4.  Health pools are large, because HP is taken from ship weight.  They weigh more, so they get more.  Cruisers have the took boxes that are needed in a wide variety of situations.  DDs have concealment and torps (which can often easily take down a BB).  

Edited by Sock5

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A couple of thoughts. First, what you describe is the purpose of battleships. They are supposed to be tougher and deadlier than anything else. Originally, the DDs with stealthfire and torps were supposed to counter BBs. And Cruisers with radar, speed, and fast firing guns were supposed to counter DDs. And BBs where supposed to counter cruisers. But with massive DDs nerfs, it's gotten away from that a little. 

On the other hand, you OP title asks a very different question. 

I heard it best described as "a ship is OP when it's stats for the low end of the player population is significantly higher than other ships".
If you'll bear with me for a minute... in my area of statistical work, we divide populations into the top third, middle third, and bottom third of ability. The top third is expect to be very good and their learning curve with new ships will be short. The middle third are the majority of totally average players. They might have a good day or a bad day. The bottom third rarely has a really good day. 

Now, when provided with a ship, if the bottom third starts looking like the top third in terms of kills, damage, survival, and win rate, and it's ONLY with a particular ship. Then the ship is probably over-powered compared to the rest. 

When a player who averages 15k damage and 1 kill per match suddenly starts averaging 75k in damage and 3 kills per match, but only in that one ship... and that happened to every bottom third player with the ship... then it is likely OP. 

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AFAIK, BBs are played most because they are relatively simple to play, and the most forgiving of mistakes.

 

DDs are extremely influential, but as you have mentioned, they're not easy to play.

 

Also, although BBs do far and away more damage, damage is not the only way games get won. You can go chasing a BB off into the sunset, scoring massive damage as he heals HP back for you to farm, and lose the match because you weren't adding your guns to a crucial cap fight.

 

BBs do the most damage, because that's basically the only tool they have for influencing a match. DDs, on the other hand, in addition to damage, provide crucial spotting, and are best suited to cap points.

 

Another thing to keep in mind is that all damage is not equal. You're rewarded for damage not based on the raw amount, but based on percentage of the targets original HP value.

 

This means that basically, 8k damage done to a DD is rewarded the same as 35k done to a BB.

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You literally have no idea what you're talking about. Popularity =/= Power Level. A ship is overpowered if it performs at a higher level than a comparable ship in the hands of a statistically inferior player. If a guy who can't crack a 30k average with the Fiji is averaging 55k with the Belfast, then that's a good indication that the Belfast is OP. If a guy that can't crack a 30k average in battleships likes playing battleships, then that's a good indication that people like big ships with big guns.

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14 minutes ago, Dr_Krickett said:

In every game i have played it is the class (or in this case) ship type that is played the most... i know I will be met with resistance but that is ok as noone wants to lose ANY power.

Yet Battleships are the most played ship type in this game. heck last game a total of 16 of the 24 ships were battleships with 2 carriers 2 DD's and 4 Cruisers making up the remaining ships. 

In almost every typical game (yes this is not a typical game thank god) it is usually 10-12 battleships per match.

 

but in all cases it seems that BB's are representing over 50%+ of all the ships types being played per match on average. When 50% of any games population is playing a specific class (or in this case ship) then there is a problem that needs to be looked into. 

 

Now this is NOT to say BB's are in fact OP it could very well be that the rest of the ships are under powered and need buffs to their damage/HP's or abilities to be brought back in line with BB's.

 

My issue with BB's are as follows:

1: they are one of the ONLY ships in the game that can show broadside to any ship (other then another BB) and laugh at them no other ship can do that.

2: The damage output of BB's are insane (seen BB's 1-2 shot other boats *including other BB's*) 

3: Sure rate of fire is much slower then other ships but the potential damage output of a BB is much higher then ANY other ship in the game over that same 30 seconds. 

4: Health pools are insane and they have health abilities that give them a decent of health back (no DD and very few cruisers get that) which makes no sense seeing they are easier to kill then BB's are.

 

Now these are just a few items I wanted to bring out and again not saying anything is wrong with BB's specifically BUT when compared to other ships they seem to be over-powered and seem to have the best of both worlds all in one nice little (or big) package. 

 

So I am asking the community to help determine WHY BB's are played more then ANY other ship line and lets be fair here and unbiased because that is the ONLY way we can hopefully get a better balanced game.

Have a +1 for the sensible look at things.

As for the actual post title; I judge a ship’s “OP” status based of the number of things going for it and at the same time the number against. Take Conquer. Going for it, it has insane fire chance, /4 HE pen, half the notmal AP detonator times, underwater cit, CL concealment, and heals that are the touch from God himself. Going against it? Pretty much nothing other then torps and sustained focus fire. Because the ship has so many things going for it vs against, in my eyes, yes that ship is OP.

As for your list of things you don’t like about BBs:

1.) Certain BBs have better armor protection and cutadel placement the others. If a Yamato shows a broadside to another BB it WILL be punished for it. Meanwhile a Montana might have a somewhat reasonable chance to be able to get away with a risky turn due to its lower cit.

2-3.) Both of these are kind of the same thing. If that wasn’t the case nobody would play them. They have to be able to do some damage otherwise the class would die. 

4.) BBs are designed to take and tank damage. That’s why they have the HP and armor that they do. Other classes rely on things like stealth not tankiness for their survival. Soviet DDs rely on speed and dodging, IJN relies on stealth, etc. Also Khabarovsk and Tashkent are the only DDs that have heals, not counting the WiP USS Kidd

The thing about BBs that makes people want to play them is for the feel that they give. They tend to make players feel unstoppable, invincible, and they can deal catastrophic damage to enemies if their shells land just right. This is attractive to newer players especially, but overall I believe this is the main reason people like to play BBs(even tho most of em are a bunch of campers, but that’s a subject for another thread....)

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Conqueror is OP and that's about all you need to know. 

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BB's are typically more forgivable to play in and usually won't punish the player for making a mistake as much as being punished in a cruiser or DD's.

 

Plus BIG GUNS pew pew

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OP on these forums is generally any ship that you have been killed by and you don't yet have yourself.

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Completely arbitrary. Some people consider it OP if it outperforms everything in tier, some consider it OP if they can't kill it easily, some call it OP just because it killed them.

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32 minutes ago, SkaerKrow said:

You literally have no idea what you're talking about. Popularity =/= Power Level. A ship is overpowered if it performs at a higher level than a comparable ship in the hands of a statistically inferior player. If a guy who can't crack a 30k average with the Fiji is averaging 55k with the Belfast, then that's a good indication that the Belfast is OP. If a guy that can't crack a 30k average in battleships likes playing battleships, then that's a good indication that people like big ships with big guns.

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. In every single MMO I have played the most popular class (by over 50%) is always the class that seems to do better then the others in most situations. They are also the class that eventually gets nerfed as well. So while you may not think such a thing it happens in every game I know of, and while it may be slightly different in this type of game it prolly is not to far off.

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To me, as far as ship types go, there are two ways of determining power level. Ability to deal damage, and ability to cap. Ranking on damage, I'd say it goes CV, BB, CA/CL, DD. Ranking on capping ability is the exact reverse. So that sounds balanced.

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1 minute ago, Dr_Krickett said:

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. In every single MMO I have played the most popular class (by over 50%) is always the class that seems to do better then the others in most situations. They are also the class that eventually gets nerfed as well. So while you may not think such a thing it happens in every game I know of, and while it may be slightly different in this type of game it prolly is not to far off.

Yes, everyone else has "no idea what they are talking about" says the guy with 52 battles. I am starting to think that he is trolling....His other thread is equally as stupid.

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58 minutes ago, Dr_Krickett said:

In every game i have played it is the class (or in this case) ship type that is played the most... i know I will be met with resistance but that is ok as noone wants to lose ANY power.

Yet Battleships are the most played ship type in this game. heck last game a total of 16 of the 24 ships were battleships with 2 carriers 2 DD's and 4 Cruisers making up the remaining ships. 

In almost every typical game (yes this is not a typical game thank god) it is usually 10-12 battleships per match.

 

but in all cases it seems that BB's are representing over 50%+ of all the ships types being played per match on average. When 50% of any games population is playing a specific class (or in this case ship) then there is a problem that needs to be looked into. 

 

Now this is NOT to say BB's are in fact OP it could very well be that the rest of the ships are under powered and need buffs to their damage/HP's or abilities to be brought back in line with BB's.

 

My issue with BB's are as follows:

1: they are one of the ONLY ships in the game that can show broadside to any ship (other then another BB) and laugh at them no other ship can do that.

2: The damage output of BB's are insane (seen BB's 1-2 shot other boats *including other BB's*) 

3: Sure rate of fire is much slower then other ships but the potential damage output of a BB is much higher then ANY other ship in the game over that same 30 seconds. 

4: Health pools are insane and they have health abilities that give them a decent of health back (no DD and very few cruisers get that) which makes no sense seeing they are easier to kill then BB's are.

 

Now these are just a few items I wanted to bring out and again not saying anything is wrong with BB's specifically BUT when compared to other ships they seem to be over-powered and seem to have the best of both worlds all in one nice little (or big) package. 

 

So I am asking the community to help determine WHY BB's are played more then ANY other ship line and lets be fair here and unbiased because that is the ONLY way we can hopefully get a better balanced game.

I would like to suggest, you play Battleships first, since you have never played them. It help you understand them more and even make you a better DD player.

Also before you tell some of these other posters they have no idea what they are talking about - you may want to look at how many battles they have been in.

You are just making yourself look like the South End of a North Bound Mule. 

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12 minutes ago, Lert said:

Completely arbitrary. Some people consider it OP if it outperforms everything in tier, some consider it OP if they can't kill it easily, some call it OP just because it killed them.

 

Dang, EVERY ship is overpowered. :Smile_teethhappy:

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2 minutes ago, Chaos_EN2 said:

I would like to suggest, you play Battleships first, since you have never played them. It help you understand them more and even make you a better DD player.

Also before you tell some of these other posters they have no idea what they are talking about - you may want to look at how many battles they have been in.

You are just making yourself look like the South End of a North Bound Mule. 

You should take a look at his reactions to some of the comments on this other thread: 

 

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Just now, Horama said:

You should take a look at his reactions to some of the comments on this other thread: 

 

Yea I did, and I know he will never be in my Clan, as long as I am the Commander.

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50 minutes ago, SkaerKrow said:

You literally have no idea what you're talking about. Popularity =/= Power Level.

 

To be fair though, in many games, popularity correlates closely with power.

 

 

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There are plenty of ships other than other BBs that a BB shouldn't be broadside too. Lots of later game CAs can pen broadside BBs. Situationally of course, but that's still a lot of damage you wouldn't be taking if you stayed angled. 

Yes BBs can delete CAs if they get a multi-cit salvo but I've very, VERY rarely seen them delete a DD or another BB from full health without a detonation involved. That's not to say I haven't seen it done (or done it) but it's so rare for that many shells to go into a BB's citadel or for that many shells to even hit a target as small and fast as a DD that it's almost not worth counting. 

As for fast damage over 30 seconds.... I'm guessing you've never seen what an Atlanta can do with AP rounds vs another cruiser if she gets in close, or what a Mino can do even against a Yamato that doesn't angle. There's a lot of beastly damage /potential/ out there that isn't in the hands of BBs. 

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13 minutes ago, JdeMolay said:

Yes, everyone else has "no idea what they are talking about" says the guy with 52 battles. I am starting to think that he is trolling....His other thread is equally as stupid.

If you find them stupid then please go away for your not wanted here. I have more then just this account I have multiple (which is legal) I just happened to post on this new account that is my DD account. I never stated that HE alone didn't know what he was talking about because he obviously has never played a real MMO before. No go away little fly noone cares what you think.

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2 minutes ago, Chaos_EN2 said:

Yea I did, and I know he will never be in my Clan, as long as I am the Commander.

Trust me I would NEVER want to be in your clan.. I also have no interest in being in any clans right now but thanks for letting me know your feelings.....

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If I had to guess, he's probably used to being decent at shooters, and seeing a lot of his success transferring over.

 

He tries this one, thinking, "ok, a shooter with boats, no problemo", and running smack into the learning curve.

 

I think once he figures out that this isn't just a boat-based FPS, if he sticks with it, he'll mellow the attitude.

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3 minutes ago, Skpstr said:

 

To be fair though, in many games, popularity correlates closely with power.

 

 

Thanks what i was trying to say but I let my emotions get the better of me.

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Determining if a ship is OP is rather complicated. First thing to know is that a ship can over perform for one group of players and be rather underpowered usually this is a result of skill gaps but can also relate to other demographics as well. Ships can also appear to be much stronger even if they are not by being premiums since the premium ships can easily be run with much better captains and there is not stock grind to pull down performance. Also, using overall stats tends to paint inaccurate pictures of the performance because of various changes that have affected the ships over time. 

 

When determining if a ship is OP you have to look at the relative performance of a ship and compare it to the ships peers. This gets complicated because some statistics like survival rate and damage dealt dont translate well between classes. So generally the peers are defined as other members of the same class and the same tier. People also need to examine various different performance levels, generally people do this by examining average data and the performance of the top x amount of players in the ships. 

 

That said I dont like making general statements about a class or line, the game meta changes dramatically over the tiers and experience at any tier is often not relevant at others. 

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