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Lert

Would WoT MM work here?

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Taking the difference in economy, team size and playerbase into account, would WoT MM work here in WoWS?

To elaborate:

Not too long ago WoT introduced an MM where the top tier would only make up at most an X percentage of the team, the middle tier at most an Y percentage and the bottom tier the rest. For example, in a tier 7 battle you would have:

  • 3 T7s
  • 5 T6s
  • 7 T5s

This guarantees that even if you are bottom tier, you're never outnumbered by the higher tier tanks. The drawback is that you'll not be top tier as often anymore.

WoWS MM works differently. MM tries to make you top tier about one third of the time, over larger numbers of battles.

"But yesterday I was top tier once out of 7 battles!"

Hence 'over larger numbers of battles'. I'm sure that if you actually tracked your battles and MM over, say, 100 battles, you'll see that you're top tier a lot more than your one-out-of-seven streak suggests you would.

Anyways, my question to the community is this:

Would it work in WoWS to switch to a WoT style MM? Where you get bottom tier battles (even) more often, but are always guaranteed to be in the majority when you are?

A few thngs to take into account:

- This MM might not even be possible in WoWS because of lower player numbers compared to WoT and how spread out over the tiers the MM queueueueue tends to be. Since the economy in WoWS is more friendly than the one in WoT there are more higher tier players in the WoWS queueueue.

- The teams are smaller here (12v12) than in WoT (15v15) so the numbers would have to be different. Instead of 3v5v7 it could be 3v4v5, or 2v4v6. That's open to balancing.

- Even if this were introduced, queueue times would become longer overall. How much longer? I don't know.  But definitely longer, since now instead of dumping 6 T7s per side into a T7 max battle, MM would have to spread that number of players out over 2 or 3 battles even, all the while trying to gather enough lower tiers to fill out the rest of the team.

- It would virtually eliminate the 'I'm top tier in a T4 / 5 battle' moments, since MM would always be needing more T5s to fill out the lower ranks in T7 battles.

So ... Discuss?

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My clan mates and I have been discussing this a lot lately and think it would actually be a good idea. I’ve gone back over the last couple months tkbplay tanks a lot and like the mm changes they’ve done over there. They actually fiddled with the mm again with the patch that dropped the other day and tweaked it even more to make it a little better.

 

It also takes into account tank type. Where you’re never gonna have mainly/more heavies in a match anymore. Now you’ll have less heavies in a match, usually around 3-4, with mainly mediums and TDs in the match, and the rest filled up by lights and arty. You’ll also always have mirrored tank types as well as the tier being mirrored on the opposing team.

 

Its a greatly improved mm and it balances out matches very well. I think it would be great for wows.

Edited by renegadestatuz

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I've said this needs to happen since tanks went to this format. For the pinched tiers like 5 and 8, it would help IMMENSELY.

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As @renegadestatuz has said we have talked about this a bunch internally and seemed to think generally well of it. I also would like to see as he said the addition of limiting how many of each type of ship we seen in a battle. With CB out I have seen how much different it is with a 1 BB limit and how CAs change in how they play at high tier. I have to say I like the flow of the battles more then how the meta currently is in randoms with matches sometimes seeing half of teams being BBs.

I will concede however, that maybe to much for the MM when it comes to MM times. I would like to see things shift in that way though, even as someone who likes playing BBs as his main lines. The BB heavy meta just kills high tier game play for me, it being majority at standoff ranges for so long is not interesting (to me at lest).

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 So for example I will have to fight 7 T8 ships with my Des Moines? lmaо what a bad idea. Pls no.

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2 minutes ago, m373x said:

 So for example I will have to fight 7 T8 ships with my Des Moines? lmaо what a bad idea. Pls no.

No.

5, if there are T8s in your T10 battle, a T10 battle MM.

But you could also get a T9 / T10 battle, which is a T11 battle MM. In which case there would be 0 T8s for you to beat up on.

And you could also get a fully T10 battle, which is a T12 battle MM, in which case there would be 0 T8s and 0 T9s for you to beat up on.

In fact, with more T9s and T8s needed by MM for other battles than yours, it's more likely you'll be in a T10 only battle.

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The only drawback would appear to be longer wait times which I, personally, can live with. I wonder if the juvenile players could.

I am aware of uptiering. Again, this does not bother me. If it happens, deal with it as best you can.

Unfortunately, there is a much worse problem with the MM than what is discussed here.

 It is the blatant inbalance that is allowed in the team make ups such that 33% win rates can occur & not just as an anomaly, as a matter of course.

WG 'arranges' the teams and it still can't 'equalize' that. It is why some refer to WG as 'War Failing'.

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While I don't think it's as necessary here in warships on account of the fact that lower tier ships can actually do damage to higher tiered opponents, I do think that some small tweaks to the matchmaker would be nice. 

For instance, playing a T6 ship and getting into a T8 match as one of only 4 bottom tier ships on either side. I would rather wait the little bit of extra time needed to pull together a better team composition, than be thrown into one of those matches. And, the same thing happens at tier 10, where everyone's top tier or T9, and then you see a Bismarck on either team.  

 

Other than that, though, I don't feel like any other change is really needed here. 

It was needed in WoT because of armour mechanics and gun pen. In some cases, it's difficult to do any sort of damage to a higher tier opponent—and said higher tier opponent has a gun which is better than yours in every single way possible. 

That's not the case here in Warships, where any ship has the capability to harm any other ship.  

 

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Baseline in this game is that weapons are more balanced against their peers than in WoT, plus detection mechanics is vastly different in this game as well.

 

An 8 inch gun at T8 is not that much different from an 8 inch gun at T10. Torpedoes are deadly in any regard, a destroyer can make most any tier work, a battleship has armor and big guns, a cruiser has rapid fire guns to put out HE and fires. 

 

The game has a far better stock balance than WoT does IMO.

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1 hour ago, Lert said:

would WoT MM work here in WoWS?

 

DDs get -2/+4 MM? :Smile_hiding:

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Just now, Skpstr said:

DDs get -2/+4 MM? :Smile_hiding:

LTs received normal MM a while back in WoT.

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Just now, Lert said:

LTs received normal MM a while back in WoT.

 

Really? Didn't know that, been awhile since I played.

 

How did that work out? Did they have to rebalance any of the LTs? I'm guessing they would get more matches where they were top tier against 2 tiers down. I can't imagine anything more fun than your Sherman or PzIV getting one-clipped by a T71 lol.

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1 minute ago, Skpstr said:

How did that work out? Did they have to rebalance any of the LTs?

Basically, yeah. Some were rebalanced, some were retiered, most of the T8 LTs went up to T9 and they introduced T10 LTs. All LTs got the normal +/-2 MM now as well, at all but the lowest tiers.

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12 minutes ago, Lert said:

Basically, yeah. Some were rebalanced, some were retiered, most of the T8 LTs went up to T9 and they introduced T10 LTs. All LTs got the normal +/-2 MM now as well, at all but the lowest tiers.

 

How do you feel about the game now?

 

I find myself at times wondering if I should reinstall and give it another try. I would do it anyway just to see, except I'd have to uninstall a game from my SSD, and depending on which game, that means a couple hours of downloading from Steam and messing with mods if I wanted to play it again.

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1 minute ago, Skpstr said:

How do you feel about the game now?

A fun diversion every now and then, but not something I play daily.

The MM is certainly the best it's ever been, the artillery rework was a success I think, the engine sound rework definitely was and next year's 'HD' maps are looking spectacular.

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1 hour ago, Lert said:

No.

5, if there are T8s in your T10 battle, a T10 battle MM.

But you could also get a T9 / T10 battle, which is a T11 battle MM. In which case there would be 0 T8s for you to beat up on.

And you could also get a fully T10 battle, which is a T12 battle MM, in which case there would be 0 T8s and 0 T9s for you to beat up on.

In fact, with more T9s and T8s needed by MM for other battles than yours, it's more likely you'll be in a T10 only battle.

Oh... oh.

 

 It could work if more requirements are added, like not having 2 T8 dds vs 2T9 dds etc. etc. etc. MM needs rebuilding if it is to be changed.

Edited by m373x

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3 minutes ago, m373x said:

 It could work if more requirements are added, like not having 2 T8 dds vs 2T9 dds etc. etc. etc. MM needs rebuilding if it is to be changed.

Agreed. However, such sweeping changes should be introduced step by step instead of the complete shebang in one go. Since every step could have unpredictable consequences, like protecting T4 MM had.

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6 minutes ago, Lert said:

Agreed. However, such sweeping changes should be introduced step by step instead of the complete shebang in one go. Since every step could have unpredictable consequences, like protecting T4 MM had.

  This will have the potential to break the MM even more along the way /because many little steps can be steps in the wrong direction before all the steps are added/ before ultimately fixing it. IMO it should be reworked and thoroughly tested before introducing it as a whole. Tbh I am OK with the current MM but will not have anything against new system/s. I prefer playing my T8 ships in T10 matches than T8 matches right now.

Edited by m373x

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I do think this is a good idea, and at least worth a try.

I'm one of the ones who would rather keep the +/-2 MM spread. But I also recognize that MM isn't in its best place right now. If there's anything about +/-2 that I don't like, it's being one of two or 4 bottom tier ships(T6 in T8 and T8 in T10). There's simply too many higher tier ships to have to deal with in games like that. If there were more lower tier ships in a match than middle/top tier, I think games would feel more balanced to those that want a +/-1 MM spread.

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1 minute ago, m373x said:

IMO it should be reworked and thoroughly tested before introducing it as a whole.

That's the whole problem.

There is no way to 'thoroughly test' something that depends on tens of thousands of players playing hundreds of thousands of battles without dropping it on the live server. The devs can't test it on a dev-only server because there's only a few of them. The STs can't test it on the ST server because there's only a few dozen on at most at the same time. A public test server is also not going to generate the depth of data needed to 'thoroughly test' a change so grand and sweeping. The devs could simulate it by writing an MM simulator based on historial queueueueueing data, but that would still only be a simulation in a controlled environment.

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1 hour ago, Lert said:

Taking the difference in economy, team size and playerbase into account, would WoT MM work here in WoWS?

To elaborate:

Not too long ago WoT introduced an MM where the top tier would only make up at most an X percentage of the team, the middle tier at most an Y percentage and the bottom tier the rest. For example, in a tier 7 battle you would have:

  • 3 T7s
  • 5 T6s
  • 7 T5s

This guarantees that even if you are bottom tier, you're never outnumbered by the higher tier tanks. The drawback is that you'll not be top tier as often anymore.

WoWS MM works differently. MM tries to make you top tier about one third of the time, over larger numbers of battles.

"But yesterday I was top tier once out of 7 battles!"

Hence 'over larger numbers of battles'. I'm sure that if you actually tracked your battles and MM over, say, 100 battles, you'll see that you're top tier a lot more than your one-out-of-seven streak suggests you would.

Anyways, my question to the community is this:

Would it work in WoWS to switch to a WoT style MM? Where you get bottom tier battles (even) more often, but are always guaranteed to be in the majority when you are?

A few thngs to take into account:

- This MM might not even be possible in WoWS because of lower player numbers compared to WoT and how spread out over the tiers the MM queueueueue tends to be. Since the economy in WoWS is more friendly than the one in WoT there are more higher tier players in the WoWS queueueue.

- The teams are smaller here (12v12) than in WoT (15v15) so the numbers would have to be different. Instead of 3v5v7 it could be 3v4v5, or 2v4v6. That's open to balancing.

- Even if this were introduced, queueue times would become longer overall. How much longer? I don't know.  But definitely longer, since now instead of dumping 6 T7s per side into a T7 max battle, MM would have to spread that number of players out over 2 or 3 battles even, all the while trying to gather enough lower tiers to fill out the rest of the team.

- It would virtually eliminate the 'I'm top tier in a T4 / 5 battle' moments, since MM would always be needing more T5s to fill out the lower ranks in T7 battles.

So ... Discuss?

this mm is the reason i stoped playing  w o t.    playing my tier 8 tanks and being bottom tier 95% of the time...... when its my turn the be the clubber, and not the seal, i want my turn.  i do not want to have it taken away from me and given to someone else

 

 

 its bad enought  that my tier 5 ships have been screwed by the anti seal clubber mm we already have, but to now screw my tier 8 ships too ...... no thank you

 

i dont feel it is right that i should loose my ability to play as a  top tier ship unless i play tier 10.   and since that is exactly what happened in wot, i  expect the same screwing here

 

nothing would make me stop playing  wows faster that putting this poor mm in this game

 

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15 minutes ago, Lert said:

A fun diversion every now and then, but not something I play daily.

The MM is certainly the best it's ever been, the artillery rework was a success I think, the engine sound rework definitely was and next year's 'HD' maps are looking spectacular.

A diversion, yes. As my primary vehicle is an arty ( a T4 one tho it was originally T3) - I cannot agree with what WoT has done, over time, to that class.

Also, I am sure that HD maps will look better, however, again, what WoT did to their maps (too many removals & too many alterations) is simply, imho, horrendous & a major fail).

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2 minutes ago, Lert said:

That's the whole problem.

There is no way to 'thoroughly test' something that depends on tens of thousands of players playing hundreds of thousands of battles without dropping it on the live server. The devs can't test it on a dev-only server because there's only a few of them. The STs can't test it on the ST server because there's only a few dozen on at most at the same time. A public test server is also not going to generate the depth of data needed to 'thoroughly test' a change so grand and sweeping. The devs could simulate it by writing an MM simulator based on historial queueueueueing data, but that would still only be a simulation in a controlled environment.

 

 I think the test server has great potential but is mistreated.

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Just now, aethervox said:

what WoT did to their maps (too many removals & too many alterations) is simply, imho, horrendous & a major fail).

It's not that they changed the maps, but how they changed the maps that I take issue with. The corridor meta, etc. They had to rework the LTs because over the years they'd made them useless.

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It would be better than the current setup.

 

Being a tier 8 in a tier 10 match with 0 tier 9's means you are just there for food. A tier 8 BB can compete with a tier 10 BB, a tier 8 cruiser will be eaten alive by citadels from any angle the second its spotted and a tier 8 DD is also most likely to get chewed up the instant its spotted.

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