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ArnoldSchoenberg

Concealment Build: Montana vs Kurfurst

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With concealment build, the detection range of Montana is 13.4KM and Kurfurst 13.6KM. 

 

People are saying that concealment build is necessary for Montana but a waste for Kurfurst......

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28 minutes ago, USSRichardNixon said:

People are saying

found your problem

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You literally can strap a pair of Nurnbergs to the side of your Kurfurst and rain an unholy storm of pain on someone...why would you give that up...11km of pain.

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Kurfurst should be fully secondary built, Montana doesn't have as good secondaries so it should go for concealment.

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26 minutes ago, Drago_Ryder said:

Probably because one benefits more from the manual fire control for secondaries skill, while the other doesn't 

 

10 minutes ago, HazardDrake said:

Because Kurry benefits from being close and in secondary range. 

 

10 minutes ago, Dr_Venture said:

You literally can strap a pair of Nurnbergs to the side of your Kurfurst and rain an unholy storm of pain on someone...why would you give that up...11km of pain.

 

 

How about Montana? How about Montana giving up Concealment but adding Fire Prevention? 

 

What I am thinking now is using Fire Prevention and Concealment but without AFT in Montana.

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8 minutes ago, USSRichardNixon said:

What I am thinking now is using Fire Prevention and Concealment but without AFT in Montana.

I take all 3 myself, plus SI, EM, Priority Target and double-catapult fighters.

AFT's the key AA one. FP is super useful if you do get any focus and CE is great for surprises or disengaging.

So few carriers AFT's not even that useful, but between odd carrier and occasional use of secondaries it's worthwhile.

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You can have a Secondaries Build with CE+Camo for Stealth Build at the same time with a high points captain, 18pts at the bare minimum to have the best of both worlds.

 

Mega Secondaries is a signature of GK.

 

But if you have awful concealment, you have absolutely zero respite as you are spotted too easily and every a$$hole in the map is shooting at you all game if they got a shot on you.  You will be getting shot at and hit, losing HP before you even get into your fighting positions.  With s--t concealment range, it's all but impossible to disengage and recover.

 

It's annoying a.f. getting spotted 1-2 minutes from match start and you have at least 6 people shooting at you from long range.  Since GK is enormous, it's not hard to hit her.  First it's the BBs like Yamato, Montana, Conqueror taking their long range pot shots at you.  Eventually, those long range HE cruisers like Zao, Moskva, Hindenburg, Henri IV will add to your torment.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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I always thought GK wasnt worth concealing. Never did math. Now kicking self. May buy it back just to see if I can improve

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hmmm i really like CE on my monty.  Being able to suprise delete ships is nice. being able to disengage with more ease is also nice. 

 

As for the germans... idk.   i have been wondering if its worth keeping a secondary build on the FDG.  Your secondaries will still reach out to 9.5? or so km without AFT.  Better dispersion on your secondaries is nice, but it also has drawbacks.  You are such a big and clumsy ship, that i wonder if going for FP and CE would better.   It would help deal with all the RN BB flamethrowers.  It also lets you get closer with more ease so your secondaries can still be useful.  secondary build seems to be better on the bis than the FDG.

 

currently i was planning for something like PT, AR, BoS, AFT, Manual sec, SI, then i am not sure for the last 2.  PM?  double spotter plane?  jack of all trades?  or would giving up the extra heal and hydro for Ce be better, and take PM for the last point?

Edited by Frederick_The_Great

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Concealment on Montana adds value because at 13.xx km you need it to maneuver in close and whack someone and get out from incoming torps.

 

Concealment isn't needed on kurfürst because once dd's see you coming they turn to get away from your secondaries.  They are built in torpedo repellant.

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On 10/21/2017 at 6:29 AM, Frederick_The_Great said:

hmmm i really like CE on my monty.  Being able to suprise delete ships is nice. being able to disengage with more ease is also nice. 

 

As for the germans... idk.   i have been wondering if its worth keeping a secondary build on the FDG.  Your secondaries will still reach out to 9.5? or so km without AFT.  Better dispersion on your secondaries is nice, but it also has drawbacks.  You are such a big and clumsy ship, that i wonder if going for FP and CE would better.   It would help deal with all the RN BB flamethrowers.  It also lets you get closer with more ease so your secondaries can still be useful.  secondary build seems to be better on the bis than the FDG.

 

currently i was planning for something like PT, AR, BoS, AFT, Manual sec, SI, then i am not sure for the last 2.  PM?  double spotter plane?  jack of all trades?  or would giving up the extra heal and hydro for Ce be better, and take PM for the last point?

Focus on survival, I gave up on the secondary build and went concealment with fire prevention, my average damage went down a bit but win rate is slowly increasing no trying to make the secondaries work.

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My thinking is the jump from 8 inaccurate guns to 12 is where the need for a secondary build becomes less important.  Not saying it won’t work, just that the volume of main battery fire from a GK is going to deter a fair number of people from getting too close. Without a secondary build most players of any class would have no concern getting within spitting distance of a Bismarck or FdG, their guns just don’t scare me.

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It's a matter of limited skill points vs skill utility. Concealment Expert is counterproductive when you are planning to use your secondaries - you actively try to get inside the range where CE helps and therefore it loses almost all of its utility. Since Montana doesn't really have good secondaries, it is better to focus on other skills, including the now fully effective CE as you want to be fighting OUTSIDE of the secondary range of the GK, to negate its advantage in that area. 

 

Basically, a GK wants to be fighting at <11 KM to use its strong secondaries and partially negate inaccurate guns - the turtleback armor also works better in close against citadel hits. The Montana wants to be fighting at 12-15 Km, where its slightly better gun accuracy can be useful but it is outside of secondary and most torpedo ranges. As the Montana has a lower Citadel and decent belt armor, it can angle off most shells at this range. Also, this is the range where CE will often mean the difference between going dark between volleys or remaining spotted, reducing the amount of cruiser fire you take and also potentially forcing faster-firing battleships to wait for each of your volleys in order to be able to aim properly. 

 

Something like a Yamato wants to be a little further out still, as it's superior dispersion and sigma plus the overmatch ability on 32mm decks has a larger effect. CE would likely be useful here as well. The Conqueror might want a fire-starting build (it is gimmicky) but from facing them they seem to be closer to Montana's then GKs, so I would also use CE. 

 

What skills to use depends on the ship - I would personally by CE on every battleship I have except for secondary-build ships, as they are rather exclusive. Note that AFT is also part of an AA build - the real choice is manual secondaries vs CE for 4-point skills. 

 

 

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I have only one time seen a concealment build on a BB that was worth a damn.   It was late game, an enemy N Carolina kept shooting at me and dropping back into stealth.

 

Problem is, the game was already basically over anyway.   Otherwise you're spending 4 skill points for a couple minutes of not being spotted at the beginning of the match, after which it's irrelevant due to planes/destroyers/etc.

 

Don't go concealment on a battleship as a general rule.  There are 1 or 2 exceptions, but if you're sniping to a degree that your concealment actually works... you're doing battleships wrong.

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On 10/20/2017 at 7:47 AM, Dr_Venture said:

You literally can strap a pair of Nurnbergs to the side of your Kurfurst and rain an unholy storm of pain on someone...why would you give that up...11km of pain.

If you give up superintendent you can have all

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42 minutes ago, TheDreadnought said:

I have only one time seen a concealment build on a BB that was worth a damn.   It was late game, an enemy N Carolina kept shooting at me and dropping back into stealth.

 

Problem is, the game was already basically over anyway.   Otherwise you're spending 4 skill points for a couple minutes of not being spotted at the beginning of the match, after which it's irrelevant due to planes/destroyers/etc.

 

Don't go concealment on a battleship as a general rule.  There are 1 or 2 exceptions, but if you're sniping to a degree that your concealment actually works... you're doing battleships wrong.

The rest of the time it was worth something the only difference is you didn't see it   :3

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On 10/20/2017 at 7:47 PM, USSRichardNixon said:

With concealment build, the detection range of Montana is 13.4KM and Kurfurst 13.6KM. 

 

People are saying that concealment build is necessary for Montana but a waste for Kurfurst......

It is because Kurfurst just has those amazing secondaries, but some people also prefer the survivability and concealment build.

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45 minutes ago, TheDreadnought said:

I have only one time seen a concealment build on a BB that was worth a damn.   It was late game, an enemy N Carolina kept shooting at me and dropping back into stealth.

 

Problem is, the game was already basically over anyway.   Otherwise you're spending 4 skill points for a couple minutes of not being spotted at the beginning of the match, after which it's irrelevant due to planes/destroyers/etc.

 

Don't go concealment on a battleship as a general rule.  There are 1 or 2 exceptions, but if you're sniping to a degree that your concealment actually works... you're doing battleships wrong.

 

2 minutes ago, Bolo_MkXX_Tremendous_DMD said:

The rest of the time it was worth something the only difference is you didn't see it   :3

Just like @Bolo_MkXX_Tremendous_DMD said, people don't notice the difference. To effectively use it you need to give up shooting instantly when you reload.

You need to go dark and intercept, this makes you harder to predict but you will have to sacrifice a little damage but you may be able to turn the tables.

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