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legozer

Izzy Tha Bizzy Beazty

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I played about 600 games in USN DDs, then started the Russian line. I SUCKED, and went back to USN ships. 48 games in Izyaslav yielded a 33% win rate. Of course, I blamed the ship....

 

I've revisited the Russian line, with more experience and a far better understanding of the game. I wanted to redeem myself with the Wizard of Iz. At 68 games, I've boosted the WR to 48%. It's an insane beast of a ship.

 

The Iz is the best DD at T4, hands down. 

 

After learning how to win in Gnevny, going back and using that same play style has brought enormous results in wins and damage with the Wiz of Iz. It s now a permanent fixture in my port. It's funny, the Izzy should teach you how to Gnev, but sometimes it's the other way around.

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I'd like to say I can't wait, but I love the Gnevny, Izzy and Minsk so much tat, frankly, I CAN wait!

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I got to Izy, and saw no reason at all to move past her.   Went on to earn a 19pt Izy captain, and 300+ battles later she is basically my top boat  :)  I almost can't go wrong with her.   

 

 

People cling to Clemson as the better T4.  Its hard to argue too, but put the two dd's heads up or in a total damage competition against someone decent in a Clemson and I think its comes down to hit rate only.  You do outrange the ol' sealclubber though by a lot and the tables turn a little to your advantage if you factor in that practicality.  I can farm damage on BBs at 12.5km with almost 100% impunity.  Clemson can only dream of that kind of range.  

 

Also as a bonus, to me, Okhotnik and Leningrad play almost identical in nature.  You can have 1 captain with 3 main boats in that scenario.  A real bargain.  

 

I also run my Izy captain in the Oktober Rev for the AA and concealment lolz.  Works ok there, but I glaringly stink at hitting with BB shells.  

 

Edited by AnimaL21

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3 hours ago, AnimaL21 said:

I got to Izy, and saw no reason at all to move past her.   Went on to earn a 19pt Izy captain, and 300+ battles later she is basically my top boat  :)  I almost can't go wrong with her.   

 

 

People cling to Clemson as the better T4.  Its hard to argue too, but put the two dd's heads up or in a total damage competition against someone decent in a Clemson and I think its comes down to hit rate only.  You do outrange the ol' sealclubber though by a lot and the tables turn a little to your advantage if you factor in that practicality.  I can farm damage on BBs at 12.5km with almost 100% impunity.  Clemson can only dream of that kind of range.  

 

Also as a bonus, to me, Okhotnik and Leningrad play almost identical in nature.  You can have 1 captain with 3 main boats in that scenario.  A real bargain.  

 

I also run my Izy captain in the Oktober Rev for the AA and concealment lolz.  Works ok there, but I glaringly stink at hitting with BB shells.  

 

Couldn't agree more.

What a lot of players overlook, though, is the usefulness of Izzy/Gnev/Minsk torps: they are DEVASTATING. Ok, 4km makes em situational against bbs and cruisers, but I feel like too many players are hung up on the idea that torpedoes are long lance weapons  to be utilized against big, clumsy battleships. That is a myopic opinion; the fast moving, quick reloading, heavy hitting mid tier Russian torps bring a new perspective to knife fighting other dds. I hammer most Clemsons in close with Izzy, and I can smoke any other dd not named Mahan with the Gnev (dear God, you are over matched against Mahan. Dreadful). I find Iz stacks up favorably to Nicholas, even.

Unless you understand how to use them, the mid tier Russian dds are frustrating garbage. Once you figure it out, though, they are OP as all get out.

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15 hours ago, legozer said:

Couldn't agree more.

What a lot of players overlook, though, is the usefulness of Izzy/Gnev/Minsk torps: they are DEVASTATING. Ok, 4km makes em situational against bbs and cruisers, but I feel like too many players are hung up on the idea that torpedoes are long lance weapons  to be utilized against big, clumsy battleships. That is a myopic opinion; the fast moving, quick reloading, heavy hitting mid tier Russian torps bring a new perspective to knife fighting other dds. I hammer most Clemsons in close with Izzy, and I can smoke any other dd not named Mahan with the Gnev (dear God, you are over matched against Mahan. Dreadful). I find Iz stacks up favorably to Nicholas, even.

Unless you understand how to use them, the mid tier Russian dds are frustrating garbage. Once you figure it out, though, they are OP as all get out.

 

You have trouble fighting the Mahan when using a Gnevy? I'm just curious why as I smash USN DDs I meet with my Anshan in gunfights and it should be no different with a Gnevy

 

Stats for comparison

HP

Mahan: 14,100

Gnevy: 14,100

 

Guns

Mahan: 4 x 1 USN

Gnevy: 4 x 1 VMF

 

Speed

Mahan: 35 knots

Gnevy: 38 knots

 

Detection (Base) 

Mahan: 7.9 km

Gnevy: 7.0 km

 

Rudder:

Mahan: 2.7 seconds

Gnevy: 4.4 seconds

 

Yes, I know I'm comparing tier VI vs VII which all the more illustrates why you should have little trouble fighting a Mahan. The two have equal hit points, with the Gnevy having better speed and detection and passable rudder. Assuming you know how to use Russian guns in a knife fight, (don't forget add MBM 2 and EM) you should be able to see the Mahan first and have no trouble with it in a gunfight.

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I get smoked by Mahan more often than not. I find that Mahan turns hard and gets behind me, then uses crazy rate of fire to whittle me down.

I've put torps on a few, but, yeah, Mahan seems to have my number.

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Might be that Mahans have beat me up a few times, and now I just freak out when I get in close to one. It's a serious possibility. I used to freak out in Benson when I met up with Gearing, and carried that reaction into Fletcher play, until, one day, I sunk 2 Gearings in one game. Now, I have no fear of them. There is definitely a psychological aspect at play...

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If you would like some help learning how to play the VMF DDs, let me know. I'm up for teaching people how to play them, though what you learn from me will be can be very different from the "conventional" beginner method that everyone tells you to play.

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On 10/25/2017 at 0:03 AM, Lightninger said:

Guns

Mahan: 4 x 1 USN

Gnevy: 4 x 1 VMF

 

This comparison of pure number of guns is rather pointless and anyway Mahan has 5 guns, not 4, and huge advantage in RoF and turret traverse. At close range Mahan will melt any Soviet DD. At longer range she'll struggle to hit target.

 

On 10/25/2017 at 0:03 AM, Lightninger said:

Assuming you know how to use Russian guns in a knife fight, (don't forget add MBM 2 and EM) you should be able to see the Mahan first and have no trouble with it in a gunfight.

 

This is a really bad advice. You should never fight Mahan at close range. You'll get melted, especially using MBM2, that makes your reload 5.75 seconds compared to Mahan's 4 seconds. You'd also need to close to ~4km to use your torps, but Mahan can kite and stay 5-6 km away and with 3kn speed difference it will take you a while to catch up.

 

On 10/26/2017 at 7:53 AM, Lightninger said:

If you would like some help learning how to play the VMF DDs, let me know.

 

That is: "If you need more bad advice like fighting USN DDs on their home turf, let me know!"

 

On 10/24/2017 at 5:23 AM, AnimaL21 said:

I got to Izy, and saw no reason at all to move past her.   Went on to earn a 19pt Izy captain, and 300+ battles later she is basically my top boat  :)  I almost can't go wrong with her.   

People cling to Clemson as the better T4.  Its hard to argue too, but put the two dd's heads up or in a total damage competition against someone decent in a Clemson and I think its comes down to hit rate only. 

 

I've played something like 70 games in my Izzy and have 60% WR with 41k average damage. I have to say, she is absolutely awesome, but recently I've gotten to loving the Clubson too. If it were down to pure damage contest, I'd say that Izzy is the best T4 dd hands down. She may seldom pump out huge games like Clemson has but she's very consistent. But then the American is a better team player and more versatile. 

But then considering the recent smoke changes it might be that Izya is the best again, because not being able to effectively smoke up team mates takes a lot of Clemson's usefulness.

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On ‎10‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 3:41 PM, geser98 said:

 

This comparison of pure number of guns is rather pointless and anyway Mahan has 5 guns, not 4, and huge advantage in RoF and turret traverse. At close range Mahan will melt any Soviet DD. At longer range she'll struggle to hit target.

 

 

This is a really bad advice. You should never fight Mahan at close range. You'll get melted, especially using MBM2, that makes your reload 5.75 seconds compared to Mahan's 4 seconds. You'd also need to close to ~4km to use your torps, but Mahan can kite and stay 5-6 km away and with 3kn speed difference it will take you a while to catch up.

 

 

That is: "If you need more bad advice like fighting USN DDs on their home turf, let me know!"

 

 

I've played something like 70 games in my Izzy and have 60% WR with 41k average damage. I have to say, she is absolutely awesome, but recently I've gotten to loving the Clubson too. If it were down to pure damage contest, I'd say that Izzy is the best T4 dd hands down. She may seldom pump out huge games like Clemson has but she's very consistent. But then the American is a better team player and more versatile. 

But then considering the recent smoke changes it might be that Izya is the best again, because not being able to effectively smoke up team mates takes a lot of Clemson's usefulness.

Yes, I stand corrected on the Mahan having 5 guns on the B hull, but that still doesn't change things much. The point is you have Soviet guns, with fast shell speed, and especially when you make the USN DDs chase you, you can be much more accurate when shooting them versus them chasing you with  their slow shell speed trying to chase you and easily missing when your dodging and weaving.

 

And knife fighting in Russians is very simple and easy if you are natural at or are willing to learn how to use Russian guns. A bad/average/beginner Soviet DD player gets melted by USN DDs in knife fights, but someone who knows how to handle the Russian DDs well will kill a USN DD easily, even in knife fights, often without taking much damage in return. Feel free to look at my Russian DD stats in warships.today all you want. I didn't get my win rates and survivability percentages by losing to USN DDs in my Soviet DDs. I've used USN DDs in knife fights and the lead you need to have is so much greater than Russians, even at 5 and 6 km range.

 

I am far from giving bad advice and if all you want to do with your Russian DDs is play the basic beginner method of "long range run and gun speed tank," that is fine as that is all you to care to aspire to. For anyone who wants to graduate beyond that stage, I am up for teaching anyone who wants to learn.

 

Edited by Lightninger

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1 hour ago, Lightninger said:

especially when you make the USN DDs chase you

 

Only a potato USN DD will ever chase Soviet gunboat. If someone does it, they deserve to die.

 

1 hour ago, Lightninger said:

And knife fighting in Russians is very simple and easy if you are natural at or are willing to learn how to use Russian guns. A bad/average/beginner Soviet DD player gets melted by USN DDs in knife fights, but someone who knows how to handle the Russian DDs well will kill a USN DD easily, even in knife fights, often without taking much damage in return. Feel free to look at my Russian DD stats in warships.today all you want. I didn't get my win rates and survivability percentages by losing to USN DDs in my Soviet DDs. I've used USN DDs in knife fights and the lead you need to have is so much greater than Russians, even at 5 and 6 km range.

 

Well, just no. You can knife-fight in a Khaba, no problem. On the other had, most other Soviet DDs suffer from multiple issues in a knife fight. Let's take a Gnevny and Farragut for example. Gnevny has 6 degrees/sec turret traverse, so it takes 30 seconds to traverse guns from port to starboard or vice versa. At the same time, it only takes ~15 seconds to turn the boat itself 180 degrees. So if you maneuver in a close-quarters brawl, you will always outrun your guns. Always, and by a long margin.

Farragut takes about the same time to turn 180 degrees, but the guns only take 12 seconds to turn. And in a brawl you have to maneuver.

And there's of course the much faster reload on USN dds. In fact 20% faster on Farragut compared to Gnevny. And same works for all other boats up from T5 to T9. Low tier Soviet DDs have a bit different play styles and boats like Derpski are amazing at knife fights, but they are not indicative of the entire line.

 

You can be a natural, you can learn how to use Soviet guns, but you will only win a knife fight against similar HP USN DD, if they make some really stupid mistake. USN DD T5+ should really never lose knife fight to Soviets. Not until T10.

 

And since you've decided to brag about your WR and WTR. Well, I've seen your stats and you're a very good player, but most of it was done in 3-ship division, so having good win rates and WTR is normal. In fact, playing in 3-man divisions is a big part of iChase's joke guide to stat paddling :Smile_teethhappy: And if we are talking about Izyaslav, I'm fairly certain I've graduated summa cum laude . I think I could teach you a thing or two. :cap_haloween: And this was all done solo, on 3 different servers and with noob captains for most part. If I could be bothered to grind more games, I'd be in top Izzy players for all three servers.

 

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Edited by geser98

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8 hours ago, geser98 said:

 

Only a potato USN DD will ever chase Soviet gunboat. If someone does it, they deserve to die.

 

 

Well, just no. You can knife-fight in a Khaba, no problem. On the other had, most other Soviet DDs suffer from multiple issues in a knife fight. Let's take a Gnevny and Farragut for example. Gnevny has 6 degrees/sec turret traverse, so it takes 30 seconds to traverse guns from port to starboard or vice versa. At the same time, it only takes ~15 seconds to turn the boat itself 180 degrees. So if you maneuver in a close-quarters brawl, you will always outrun your guns. Always, and by a long margin.

Farragut takes about the same time to turn 180 degrees, but the guns only take 12 seconds to turn. And in a brawl you have to maneuver.

And there's of course the much faster reload on USN dds. In fact 20% faster on Farragut compared to Gnevny. And same works for all other boats up from T5 to T9. Low tier Soviet DDs have a bit different play styles and boats like Derpski are amazing at knife fights, but they are not indicative of the entire line.

 

You can be a natural, you can learn how to use Soviet guns, but you will only win a knife fight against similar HP USN DD, if they make some really stupid mistake. USN DD T5+ should really never lose knife fight to Soviets. Not until T10.

 

And since you've decided to brag about your WR and WTR. Well, I've seen your stats and you're a very good player, but most of it was done in 3-ship division, so having good win rates and WTR is normal. In fact, playing in 3-man divisions is a big part of iChase's joke guide to stat paddling :Smile_teethhappy: And if we are talking about Izyaslav, I'm fairly certain I've graduated summa cum laude . I think I could teach you a thing or two. :cap_haloween: And this was all done solo, on 3 different servers and with noob captains for most part. If I could be bothered to grind more games, I'd be in top Izzy players for all three servers.

 

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You’re a funny guy I have to say. I knife fight in all my Soviet DDs and murder USN DDs. The misconception about knife fighting as you are talking about is that turret rotation and faster reload wins fights. Yes, that will win fights if you can land your hits with your slow shell speed. If you build your Soviet DDs right with the right modules and captain skills, you do not out turn your guns. I destroy USN DDs in knife fights from tier 2 in the Storozhevoi (in tier 3 and 4 battles even) all the way up to tier 10 in Grozovoi and Khabarovsk.

 

The key to winning a knife fight is accuracy as you can have all the turret turn and reload all you like but if you fail to hit your target most of your shots, those don’t matter. And just for your example, feel free to look at my Anshan stats, which is basically the same as Gnevy with different torps. I knife fight with my Anshan all the time and yes destroy Farraguts, Gaedes, etc. 

 

I didn’t brag at all about my WR or WTR, in fact I didn’t even mention WTR. I was pointing to my WR and survival rate to make a point that while I do a lot of knife fighting in my Soviet DDs, I am not losing to USN DDs you keep trying to say. My high win rates and high survival rates say that I do destroy USN DDs in knife fights and I do that a lot, whether you want to believe it or not. It’s clear that there is a lot more you need to learn about Soviet DDs as clearly you don’t play them well enough to do so.

 

As for my WTR versus yours, advanced Soviet DD play often does not involve farming damage off ships from long range like most people do so does not necessarily gain you high WTR and honestly I don’t feel the need to have amazing WTR. A lot of games are spent hunting down enemy destroyers and can result in low or average damage in a number of games

 

P.S. There was one game where a Benson on our team was playing badly and not knife fighting well and I had a clan mate say he could destroy any destroyer in a Benson. So I asked him how he would do against me and he knows how I play Soviet DDs. His response was "You're the exception." Whether you're capable of knife fighting in a Soviet DD is a skill many people don't possess or care to learn and it's clear you have no interest either.

Edited by Lightninger

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Once again, you mostly play in divisions from what I could gather, therefore if you push into the cap, you will always have good support, unlike your opponent who would generally rely on random team mates helping them. This is not an even fight.  You're in an advantaged position by default. 

 

I never said that Soviet DDs can not knife fight. It's just that it's not their main task and not their main strength. With the right choice of modules and skills you can make it somewhat on-par with the Americans, but then you have to sacrifice some of your main responsibilities.

 

Be default, Soviet DDs are not great cap contesters simply due to awful concealment. You can invest in the concealment, but never going to be close to your competitors for the same tier. You can get MBM2 and barely take it to the stage where you don't out-turn your guns. You can get AR and BFT to improve the DPM. You can do many other things, but none of it will make you a dedicated capper. You will never be as good as Ze Germans, because you don't have hydro. You will never be as good as Americans, because you don't have the DPM or concealment (except boats like Grozovoi or Ognevoi). And you are not as good as either of those due to the huge turning circle and generally worse maneuverability.

 

And, frankly, if you want to contest caps, play your German DDs and be an uber-bully. Soviet DDs have their own responsibilities of basic scouting in front of the fleet, enemy harassment and scaring off enemy DDs and they are good at that.

 

If you want to do something, you've got to chose the tool that is fit for purpose and, yes, it might be possible to eat soup with a fork, but it's mighty complicated.

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You think just because I play a lot in a division means I always have my division mates around me huh? You have no idea how I play as a good portion of every game I am actually by myself ahead of my division mates or quite a distance off by myself hunting down what are threats to my division mates. I’m not babysitting my division buddies and frankly they don’t need it so your argument of always having division support nearby is actually not valid.

 

I honestly don’t know what you have against people learning how to play Soviet DDs better. Yes, you can play all the DD lines in their natural strengths as most people playing the game will advocate and is a commonly expressed point made here on the forums and elsewhere. That doesn’t mean that there aren’t ways to play one DD line to do all roles effectively and if someone like me is willing to teach it, what is the issue with that? I’ve seen your stats on your NA reroll as well as your Asia account in Russian DDs and I honestly don’t understand why you feel you’re such an expert on these DDs to be debating with me on how to play them.

 

I don’t care if you agree with me on how to play the Soviet DDs and clearly you don’t have any interest in learning how to play them better but that doesn’t mean others can’t take up the opportunity to learn if they wish. Enjoy playing these DDs how you like as I don’t care how you play them nor how well you do with them. There’s no point in arguing with me using generic arguments on general game playstyles of ship lines as that achieves nothing.

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Oh, I'm so sorry. I forgot that us, lowly people, are not supposed to argue in defense of what we believe in.

 

It's great if you make brawling in Soviet DDs work, but, once again, it's not the intended role for those ships. They are not designed with that in mind and it most likely all comes down to your skill level. It's like when someone like Flamu comments on other people play - what he sees as easy and normal is, in fact, some unicum-level play, un-achiveable for most people. 

 

Also I'd like to note that at least I tried to bring some numbers into the discussion, while your position was - "I can do t and you're not willing to learn. Gitgud." A bit counter-productive, I should say. 

 

P.S. And I do try to learn new things and get better at the game. I watch a lot of replays by community contributors and just good players to learn new things and improve. At the same time, I've never heard any of them saying that brawling in a RU DD is a good idea. Yes, occasionally, you'd have, say, Flamu, that I've already mentioned, taking a close-quarters fight in a Soviet DD, but then he'd say something like "I'm confident in my ability to take him on", in fact I think it's an actual quote. He, to the best of my knowledge never goes to say that it's a good idea in general case.

 

Or him again talking about contesting caps in Grozovoi - "It is still kind of sketchy with contesting cap points in this ship... This ship is still extremely clumsy".

And also in the same video: "...any kind of DDs, USN or IJN you kind of wreck in a 1v1.. as long as you're not close enough that their torpedoes become an issue"

 

Or let's say, Notser. He'd published a couple videos a couple months back discussing play styles of Soviet dds for all tiers. You might notice that never does he really say that it's a good idea to brawl. In fact, what he does say is "You stay at or near max range and light them up with your guns",  when discussing general play style of soviet DDs T5+.

 

 

Edited by geser98

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I crushed a Mahan and a Benson in a knife fight today with Kiev. I think I can beat Mahan in Gnev now.

 

And, both of you make great points, but, ultimately, geser98 is most convincing; the style of play I have found most effective in RUS dds is to support and hit em at range. 

I am not concerned with damage as much as winning.

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16 hours ago, geser98 said:

Oh, I'm so sorry. I forgot that us, lowly people, are not supposed to argue in defense of what we believe in.

 

It's great if you make brawling in Soviet DDs work, but, once again, it's not the intended role for those ships. They are not designed with that in mind and it most likely all comes down to your skill level. It's like when someone like Flamu comments on other people play - what he sees as easy and normal is, in fact, some unicum-level play, un-achiveable for most people. 

 

Also I'd like to note that at least I tried to bring some numbers into the discussion, while your position was - "I can do t and you're not willing to learn. Gitgud." A bit counter-productive, I should say. 

 

P.S. And I do try to learn new things and get better at the game. I watch a lot of replays by community contributors and just good players to learn new things and improve. At the same time, I've never heard any of them saying that brawling in a RU DD is a good idea. Yes, occasionally, you'd have, say, Flamu, that I've already mentioned, taking a close-quarters fight in a Soviet DD, but then he'd say something like "I'm confident in my ability to take him on", in fact I think it's an actual quote. He, to the best of my knowledge never goes to say that it's a good idea in general case.

 

Or him again talking about contesting caps in Grozovoi - "It is still kind of sketchy with contesting cap points in this ship... This ship is still extremely clumsy".

And also in the same video: "...any kind of DDs, USN or IJN you kind of wreck in a 1v1.. as long as you're not close enough that their torpedoes become an issue"

 

Or let's say, Notser. He'd published a couple videos a couple months back discussing play styles of Soviet dds for all tiers. You might notice that never does he really say that it's a good idea to brawl. In fact, what he does say is "You stay at or near max range and light them up with your guns",  when discussing general play style of soviet DDs T5+.

 

 

 

You’re very amusing in your responses honestly. Let’s go over the discussion thus far, which started with numbers by the way.

 

1) I gave a comparison of Gnevy and Mahan to help someone with their Gnevy play.

2) You respond back with the same generic argument everyone uses. USN DDs generally are better at knife fighting because of faster reload and turret turn.

3) I point out that after learning how to setup and use Russian guns, and with practice, knife fighting is very easy to do with VMF DDs, as it is bad/beginner/average players that lose to USN DDs. I also point out that I have the experience to say this as I have the win rates and survivability rates to prove it.

4) You give the same generic argument again of USN DDs having better turret turn and reload, using the tier 6 DDs as an example. You bring up a tangent about WTR to show how good you are, in the one VMF DD you look very good in. You also bring up another tangent about divisions as if that is supposed to invalidate my play experience.

5) I point out that it is accuracy and landing shots that wins knife fights and doesn’t matter what turret rotation or reload you have if you fail to do that, and it is very easy to dodge USN shots. I counter your Farragut versus Gnevy example with my stats in the Anshan, which performs just like a Gnevy in a knife fight, and I had already explained earlier how to not out turn your turrets (EM or EM + MBM 2, depending on whats needed). I also explain that advanced VMF DD play often doesn’t always result in high WTR.

6) You emphasize again my play in divisions, with the assumption that I am always with my division mates. You give the same generic arguments about VMF DD weaknesses, turret turn, concealment, and give another tangent about capping with Germans doing it better with hydro.

7) I point out that a playing a DD in a division often means you’re not with your division mates. You are out in front scouting, contesting caps, hunting down threats to your division mates, addressing emergencies elsewhere on the map, which makes your point about always having support in a division invalid.

8) You now give me another generic argument about VMF DDs not being intended for knife fighting, capping etc. You give me quotes from the two people on YouTube, Notser and Flamu, who advocate the exact beginner method of VMF DD play that I mentioned previously, which is the “Run and Gun Support Speed Tank” playstyle.

 

Yes, all your arguments have been technically correct, but they are also the same generic arguments that everyone uses, and you brought up a lot of tangents that had no relevancy to the actual discussion. USN are generally better at knife fighting because of reload and turret turn. Germans are generally better at capping because of their hydro. Division play does in general skew your win rates higher. VMF DDs are not originally designed for knife fighting or capping. These are all statements that are generally correct.

 

What I have been posting in many threads before this one, and likely many after this one is, for someone willing to learn, I am willing to teach those interested in graduating beyond the beginner basic method that Flamu and Notser advocate of simply being a “Run and Gun Support Speed Tank.” I can give you module and captain builds, that along with some practice and experience, allows you to play VMF DDs in an unconventional, more advanced way that does let you knife fight and selectively cap, without losing any ability to be effective in the beginner playstyle already posted up on Youtube. I haven’t gone into numbers because I could write pages and pages of stat comparisons and there was nothing in your responses to really warrant any real numbers.

 

I could give you numbers such as getting your VMF DD turret turn rate to 18-19 seconds for 180 degrees allows you to not out turn your turrets but that is meaningless until you actually put EM or EM + MBM 2 in game and try it in the training room or in a game. There are many more numbers I could give you, but it is not worth the time unless you actually want to learn. In short, all you’ve given me are generic arguments everyone already knows and already says, which really achieves nothing and imparts no new knowledge. Advanced VMF DD play isn’t taught using text and forum posts and no amount of writing can teach you how to do it. If all you care about is playing ships in their “intended” roles, that’s fine, so it’s actually no work for me and I don’t need to teach you anything. I honestly don’t care how you want to play your ships.

 

I’m just giving those who want to, an opportunity to learn to play their ships better, and no amount of generic arguments given about “intended roles” and “intended playstyles” achieves anything. It is just a waste of time for both people involved in the discussion.

 

9 hours ago, legozer said:

I crushed a Mahan and a Benson in a knife fight today with Kiev. I think I can beat Mahan in Gnev now.

 

And, both of you make great points, but, ultimately, geser98 is most convincing; the style of play I have found most effective in RUS dds is to support and hit em at range. 

I am not concerned with damage as much as winning.

 

I'm glad you are getting better with your VMF DDs. Staying at long range is the easiest way to play them and it is often effective, but it is also very easy to surprise and make people panic when you show up completely unexpected. I can give you many stories of such occurences. If you want any help, just let me know

Edited by Lightninger

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As the former number 1 izzy player (solo), yes. she's the best non-premium tier 4 - only the Nikolai gives her a run for the money. The Clemson is great, but she relies on utter enemy stupidity to do her work because of short gun range.

 

The izzy is the khab. Its pure out-play at range with gun-play. Hunt down and murder enemy destroyers - including Clemsons. Then murder destroyers. Then murder BBs.

 


Then when there's nothing left - murder the CVs. The damn thing is stealthy too.

Edited by aether_tech

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5 hours ago, Lightninger said:

Yes, all your arguments have been technically correct, but they are also the same generic arguments that everyone uses, and you brought up a lot of tangents that had no relevancy to the actual discussion. USN are generally better at knife fighting because of reload and turret turn. Germans are generally better at capping because of their hydro. Division play does in general skew your win rates higher. VMF DDs are not originally designed for knife fighting or capping. These are all statements that are generally correct.

 

Well, I apologize for the tangents. Definitely was not intending to drag the discussion sideways. I'll do some tests in a training room tonight. 

 

 

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9 hours ago, Lightninger said:

I am willing to teach those interested in graduating beyond the beginner basic method that Flamu and Notser advocate of simply being a “Run and Gun Support Speed Tank.”

 

Well, also I'd like to say that your responses are amusing as well. Most interesting is that you tell people to contact you personally if they want to learn, but then why did you choose to comment on a public forum? You could have just as well sent a PM to legozer. But you didn't. And now you outright refuse to explain your "method" of beating Mahans and Farraguts in close-quarter combat to the rest of the crowd.

 

That is why I believe Youtubers  that I mentioned and I don't believe you. I can see how they play and they give proper advice and I can see their results on the stat page, so I know exactly how it all comes together. With you, though, I can only see your stats and I have no reason to believe anything that you say, because stat paddling is a thing and your solo stats are less than impressive.

 

9 hours ago, Lightninger said:

Advanced VMF DD play isn’t taught using text and forum posts and no amount of writing can teach you how to do it.

 

And that is the biggest flaw of your position. A smart person once said - "If you can't explain something in simple terms, you don't really understand it yourself". And that is what I see happening here. If there were some basic tips, tactics and strategies to your play, they can be easily summarized in a forum post, and so far your ability to communicate using written language seems very much sufficient to bring forth even the more complex ideas.

 

On the other hand, if there's no tactic or strategy involved and all you do is done differently in any occasion, then, I'm afraid to say it, but you won't teach anyone. Teaching involves being able to summarize prior knowledge into some sort of rule so that the information is easier to digest. Some things can't really be taught, like ability to reliably hit an enemy in a close-quarters fight. 

 

You can teach accuracy and correct use of reticule in a BB or a CA, but in a hectic close-quarters brawl in a destroyer you don't have time to check your shell flight time, count the correct number of ticks, take a correction for the speed above 20kn and so forth. You can learn it with practice only. You go to training room, set yourself against 5 boots and learn to brawl. 

 

And from what I've seen so far, you have only two tips to share with us are:

1) Use your torpedoes. Duh.

2) Use EM+MBM2

 

And since it's really the only real advice you've given so far, let's analyse it. First advice places constraint on the range you-re referring to. You can only use Gnevny torps between 0-7 km (and that if enemy is chasing you). Unfortunately, at that range Mahan's or Farragut's shell arcs are almost as flat as yours, so they will have little trouble hitting you in return. Both Farra and Mahan have more torpedoes, therefore getting wider spread that is harder to evade, you have slightly faster torps. Mahan has a third torp launcher that people tend to forget about. My bet is on USN here.

 

Second advice is a double-edged sword for knife fighting. No questions about EM, it's almost a must-have for Gnevny. MBM2 is another question. When using it, you alleviate one issue while at the same time exacerbating the other, namely the lower DPM. For the fairness sake, let's consider fighting a Farragut, since she's the same tier.

 

Farragut has 45k dpm, provided all of the hits are HE penetrations. Gnevny has 30,4k dpm or just two thirds of her opponent. With MBM2, you're left with just 28,9k or just 64% of Farragut's. And as mentioned before, I'll check tonight, whether you can actually keep your guns pointed on the target while maneuvering. This number will go down even more if you have to wait for you guns to rotate.

 

Yes, you have more HP, but it's not enough to outweigh the lack of dpm. Once again, you're down 36% on dpm, while only up 18% on HP. And if you're both using SE, you're only up 16% on HP. One-on-one fight is a very simple numbers game - you trade your HP for that of your opponent. To win the fight against Farragut you need to do at least 83-85% of her DPM, but unless your aim is great and your enemy's isn't, you can't get that much.

 

So what you're getting into is an unfair fight and really, unfair fights is what you want, but you want them skewed the other way. In the end of the day, unless you have some other advantages you can rely upon or your enemy being a potato, you will lose this fight. 

Edited by geser98

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19 hours ago, Lightninger said:

I could give you numbers such as getting your VMF DD turret turn rate to 18-19 seconds for 180 degrees allows you to not out turn your turrets but that is meaningless until you actually put EM or EM + MBM 2 in game and try it in the training room or in a game.

 

Testing on the Anshan, since I don't have Gnevny and I'm saving money for Yugumo. EM+MBM2.

Full ahead, lock armament on sector to the port, 180 degree turn. When the turn is complete two front turrets are ~125 degrees behind. It takes another 12 seconds for them to be aimed at the target. The boat itself takes 22 seconds to turn.

3/4 speed turn - after 180 degree turn two turrets are 100 degrees behind. It takes about 10 seconds to catch up.

1/2 speed turn, takes 33 seconds to complete. Turrets are behaving better, only 70 degrees behind.

1/4 speed turn. Takes 1 minute and 2 seconds to complete. Yay! Turrets outrun the turn rate. They arrive at the target 3 whole seconds before the turn is complete!

The biggest issue is that depending on which side you're turning, two of the turrets can just swing from one side to the other, but two others start with turning one way, but then they run into the superstructure and start turning a whole 160-odd degrees back to where they are supposed to be. And you can't manually influence it.

 

You, sir, are full of it.

 

Edited by geser98

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18 hours ago, geser98 said:

 

 

Well, also I'd like to say that your responses are amusing as well. Most interesting is that you tell people to contact you personally if they want to learn, but then why did you choose to comment on a public forum? You could have just as well sent a PM to legozer. But you didn't. And now you outright refuse to explain your "method" of beating Mahans and Farraguts in close-quarter combat to the rest of the crowd.

 

That is why I believe Youtubers  that I mentioned and I don't believe you. I can see how they play and they give proper advice and I can see their results on the stat page, so I know exactly how it all comes together. With you, though, I can only see your stats and I have no reason to believe anything that you say, because stat paddling is a thing and your solo stats are less than impressive.

 

 

And that is the biggest flaw of your position. A smart person once said - "If you can't explain something in simple terms, you don't really understand it yourself". And that is what I see happening here. If there were some basic tips, tactics and strategies to your play, they can be easily summarized in a forum post, and so far your ability to communicate using written language seems very much sufficient to bring forth even the more complex ideas.

 

On the other hand, if there's no tactic or strategy involved and all you do is done differently in any occasion, then, I'm afraid to say it, but you won't teach anyone. Teaching involves being able to summarize prior knowledge into some sort of rule so that the information is easier to digest. Some things can't really be taught, like ability to reliably hit an enemy in a close-quarters fight. 

 

You can teach accuracy and correct use of reticule in a BB or a CA, but in a hectic close-quarters brawl in a destroyer you don't have time to check your shell flight time, count the correct number of ticks, take a correction for the speed above 20kn and so forth. You can learn it with practice only. You go to training room, set yourself against 5 boots and learn to brawl. 

 

And from what I've seen so far, you have only two tips to share with us are:

1) Use your torpedoes. Duh.

2) Use EM+MBM2

 

And since it's really the only real advice you've given so far, let's analyse it. First advice places constraint on the range you-re referring to. You can only use Gnevny torps between 0-7 km (and that if enemy is chasing you). Unfortunately, at that range Mahan's or Farragut's shell arcs are almost as flat as yours, so they will have little trouble hitting you in return. Both Farra and Mahan have more torpedoes, therefore getting wider spread that is harder to evade, you have slightly faster torps. Mahan has a third torp launcher that people tend to forget about. My bet is on USN here.

 

Second advice is a double-edged sword for knife fighting. No questions about EM, it's almost a must-have for Gnevny. MBM2 is another question. When using it, you alleviate one issue while at the same time exacerbating the other, namely the lower DPM. For the fairness sake, let's consider fighting a Farragut, since she's the same tier.

 

Farragut has 45k dpm, provided all of the hits are HE penetrations. Gnevny has 30,4k dpm or just two thirds of her opponent. With MBM2, you're left with just 28,9k or just 64% of Farragut's. And as mentioned before, I'll check tonight, whether you can actually keep your guns pointed on the target while maneuvering. This number will go down even more if you have to wait for you guns to rotate.

 

Yes, you have more HP, but it's not enough to outweigh the lack of dpm. Once again, you're down 36% on dpm, while only up 18% on HP. And if you're both using SE, you're only up 16% on HP. One-on-one fight is a very simple numbers game - you trade your HP for that of your opponent. To win the fight against Farragut you need to do at least 83-85% of her DPM, but unless your aim is great and your enemy's isn't, you can't get that much.

 

So what you're getting into is an unfair fight and really, unfair fights is what you want, but you want them skewed the other way. In the end of the day, unless you have some other advantages you can rely upon or your enemy being a potato, you will lose this fight. 

 

8 hours ago, geser98 said:

 

 

Testing on the Anshan, since I don't have Gnevny and I'm saving money for Yugumo. EM+MBM2.

Full ahead, lock armament on sector to the port, 180 degree turn. When the turn is complete two front turrets are ~125 degrees behind. It takes another 12 seconds for them to be aimed at the target. The boat itself takes 22 seconds to turn.

3/4 speed turn - after 180 degree turn two turrets are 100 degrees behind. It takes about 10 seconds to catch up.

1/2 speed turn, takes 33 seconds to complete. Turrets are behaving better, only 70 degrees behind.

1/4 speed turn. Takes 1 minute and 2 seconds to complete. Yay! Turrets outrun the turn rate. They arrive at the target 3 whole seconds before the turn is complete!

The biggest issue is that depending on which side you're turning, two of the turrets can just swing from one side to the other, but two others start with turning one way, but then they run into the superstructure and start turning a whole 160-odd degrees back to where they are supposed to be. And you can't manually influence it.

 

You, sir, are full of it.

 

 

I've sent plenty of messages to offering help to people which simply results in a short discussion. I tell people to message me because that indicates that they truly want to learn and have the desire for it. There is nothing complex about beating Farraguts, Mahans, or any other USN DDs or special methods for doing so. It's all in basics of knife fighting. You have your turrets capable of staying on target to shoot your enemy while making them miss you while you dodge their shots. How well a person can execute this, no matter what reload or turret turn or shell speed determines who wins the knife fight. The same old, tired, generic argument of USN DDs you keep repeating of better reload and turret turn is useless if you miss most of your shots due to low USN DD shell speed.

 

I already explained that getting your turrets down to 18-19 seconds for 180 degrees does allow you to stay on target while dodging and weaving shots from the opponent. I never mentioned the use torpedoes once during a knife fight. I'm not the only one capable of knife fighting with VMF DDs as I know at least a couple others who can do it. And another tangent about solo stats huh? I have very few games that I play solo anymore and vast majority of the solo games on record are when I first started the game. Why bother playing solo when you have friends and clan mates you can have more fun playing together with? I think it's pretty clear looking at my stats that I don't actually do any stat padding either. Yes, Flamu and Notser make videos for everyone to see, but they have time and likely make income from all the streaming and Youtube videos they make for Warships. Very few people have the luxury of having the time to do this, and I don't feel the need to do so either.

 

And your "tests" on the Anshan tell me you don't know how to knife fight very well, or are not able to execute it very well if you do, or something else is going on. The only thing that matters when you're knife fighting is, can your turrets stay on target while dodging and weaving, and the answer is yes with that setup. If you aren't able to use it, that's an issue with your playstyle, or if a knife fight for you consistently starts with being surprised and having to turn your turrets around, that's also an issue with your playstyle and situational awareness.

 

I don't know why you keep arguing when you clearly have no expertise in what you are arguing about. I'm not going to bother responding anymore as honestly this is all a waste of time, as you give nothing but the same old argument over and over again that I already addressed previously.

Edited by Lightninger

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Oh, come on man! This is ridiculous! I tested it with the setup you told me to and it doesn't work at all.

 

Have you tested it in a training room yourself?

 

But anyway, I'll leave you alone with your delusions of grandeur.

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