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BlailBlerg

Discussion on what theoretical range of radar should be

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Read the tag. 

 

What should Radar range be and why? 

How does it relate to DD and Cruiser (radar-er) ranges? 

How should it relate to torpedo ranges? (Are torpedo ranges long enough?) 

 

In an ideal situation, what is the "use" of radar? What is the highest level use of radar? 

What usages constitute abuse or unintended consequences? 

What should be the proper counterplay to correct radar usage? 

Edited by BlailBlerg

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Radar is a blanket tool for detecting random objects, I think the optimal range for it should be 10km since thats about a DDS averag gun range, but still far from useless. It also still leaves leeway for the DD to attack without fear of radar.

The downsides of radar are already in game, with the downsides being the fact that you need to be fairly close to the enemy to use effectively, making it a risk/reward tool

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If it doesn't go through islands, it would require a significant range buff. Ships with radar don't just have it slapped on, it's a part of their role. It helps break up the smoke meta and is one of the few remaining parts of 'rock paper scissors' that is left in the game.

 

I'm fine with it as it is, but keep in mind I have no DDs above T7, am a cruiser main, and have used radar on all 5 ships I own that can mount it.

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Ex. Let's say that I think radar shouldn't go through islands? 

Then the assumption is that the intended use from this assumption is that the cruiser is out in the open radiating within 10-11.7km of a DD, likely very near or within a cap. 

Is the cruiser taking fire from being in the open?  (And tends to die or lose a LOT of HP fast)

Who is firing to kill that radar-ed DD? 

Is it not dying because its found an island to block fire from one side so that only the front is open to fire? 

 

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The US Navy developed their first prototype radar (and coined the term) in 1939. Through coordination with the British and through work at American Universities, the system was perfected and in use at the dawn of the US involvement in WWII. In fact, US Army radar spotted the planes sent to attack Pearl Harbor but the warning was ignored as it was thought that these were just US planes that were expected in from the mainland. By the end of the war radar use was widespread. I had a great uncle who flew a radar-equipped night fighter, the P-61 Black Widow. Radar was not limited to ground based sites, ships and aircraft though. Even before the US officially entered the war, Britain had invented the proximity fuse and had sent it to the US for development. By 1944, these fuses were being made in such large numbers that much of the US electronics industry was involved in their production. Proximity fuses were so secret and important to the war effort that they were only used by the Navy over water until the Battle of the Bulge, where they were shown to increase the effectiveness of artillery several-fold. When I was in as artillery unit, VT fuses were mostly what we used on the shells, the exception being if you were targeting structures or a bunker.

Edited by Snargfargle

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40 minutes ago, pewpewpew42 said:

If it doesn't go through islands, it would require a significant range buff. Ships with radar don't just have it slapped on, it's a part of their role. It helps break up the smoke meta and is one of the few remaining parts of 'rock paper scissors' that is left in the game.

 

I'm fine with it as it is, but keep in mind I have no DDs above T7, am a cruiser main, and have used radar on all 5 ships I own that can mount it.

Missouri kind of breaks that idea and as far as I can tell the Russian cruisers would work fine without radar.

 

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1 hour ago, Cruiser_DesMoines said:

I want radar to not go through solid objects (islands), but along with that a slight range increase (+10-15%).

Can you explain why your statement and why you think it is sound? 

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1 minute ago, BlailBlerg said:

Can you explain why your statement and why you think it is sound? 

I believe that he thinks that buffing range, while adding los will keep the power level of radar about the same.

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7 minutes ago, megadeux said:

I believe that he thinks that buffing range, while adding los will keep the power level of radar about the same.

But is it at the right level? 

Did he consider interactions how the range of DD detection, smoke cruiser detection, standard cruiser detection, torp range is? 
What does he think is the right counterplay to correct use of radar? 

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2 minutes ago, BlailBlerg said:

But is it at the right level? 

Did he consider interactions how the range of DD detection, smoke cruiser detection, standard cruiser detection, torp range is? 
What does he think is the right counterplay to correct use of radar? 

Who knows? I just stated what I believed the rational behind his comment was. 

However, currently I believe that radar as it is is fine, however I do wish for a standardized radar range though, with 9.5km range and 35 second reload.

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3 minutes ago, megadeux said:

Who knows? I just stated what I believed the rational behind his comment was. 

However, currently I believe that radar as it is is fine, however I do wish for a standardized radar range though, with 9.5km range and 35 second reload.

I know. but thats why all that crap up top is there.  He didn't provide reasons and he didn't offer counterarguments. 

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the P-61 Black Widow

Other than the SR71 and the Corsair (F4U) - my fav plane of all time.,  My dad had a model of it next to his bed for as long as I can remember.

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39 minutes ago, megadeux said:

Who knows? I just stated what I believed the rational behind his comment was. 

However, currently I believe that radar as it is is fine, however I do wish for a standardized radar range though, with 9.5km range and 35 second reload.

Just realized that I have no reasons stated here, so here they are.

9.5 km range. This is slightly arbitrary but I think it's long enough range to grab DDS that are threatening your team with torps, but short enough that DDs can get out of it enough. 

35 second duration, sorry, I meant duration not reload. I think this is long enough to get guns on target and fire a couple salvos, maybe kill the DD, but it might give the enemy a chance to live anyway.

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1 hour ago, Snargfargle said:

The US Navy developed their first prototype radar (and coined the term) in 1939. Through coordination with the British and through work at American Universities, the system was perfected and in use at the dawn of the US involvement in WWII. In fact, US Army radar spotted the planes sent to attack Pearl Harbor but the warning was ignored as it was thought that these were just US planes that were expected in from the mainland. By the end of the war radar use was widespread. I had a great uncle who flew a radar-equipped night fighter, the P-61 Black Widow. Radar was not limited to ground based sites, ships and aircraft though. Even before the US officially entered the war, Britain had invented the proximity fuse and had sent it to the US for development. By 1944, these fuses were being made in such large numbers that much of the US electronics industry was involved in their production. Proximity fuses were so secret and important to the war effort that they were only used by the Navy over water until the Battle of the Bulge, where they were shown to increase the effectiveness of artillery several-fold. When I was in as artillery unit, VT fuses were mostly what we used on the shells, the exception being if you were targeting structures or a bunker.

But historically, US navy radar couldn't distinguish between a coral reef and a destroyer at times. I read memoirs and its amusing as each ship in a flotilla identifies a reef as a ship in turn. 

 

There were a lot of false positives in the day. It was new stuff

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3 hours ago, Cruiser_DesMoines said:

I want radar to not go through solid objects (islands), but along with that a slight range increase (+10-15%).

If they could get it to work I'd be fine with that, Radar was designed to allow cruisers (namely the no torp/short torp US/USSR) to deal with destroyers hiding in smokescreens that last so damn long (even after they got shortened early OBT)

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I think radar ranges are fine.  I think that duration should be increased, but radar should be self only.  I also think that radar should not work through islands, it should require LOS so that a cruiser cant just set up shop behind an island and area-deny.  Radar should be a tool that a cruiser can use to hunt down and kill DD's not spot them for other people to kill.  If you want team spotting, get a carrier or a DD to do it for you.

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If radar goes through islands, no change is needed.
If radar is changed to not go through islands, then the ships with them will need new ranges.

I would think about 500m above their detection range, if they are a Cruiser or Destroyer. Take CE or CSM and the radar range will, likewise, be reduced
So, for example, a Des Moines with full concealment will have 11.1km radar range, but a Des Moines with zero concealment improvements will have 14.4km radar range.
Destroyers with radar will now have a maximum of 7.5km radar, but if they take concealment upgrades, their radar will be reduced down to 6km.

Meanwhile, Missouri can stick with its 9.45km radar, which is sufficient

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Considering that a real WWII (used off Guadalcanal on USS Helena) radar, the SG surface search radar could pick up a destroyer at 15 nautical miles (24 km), and a BB at 22 nautical miles (35.2km), then you'll just have to find a good distance to fit gameplay.  What that might be, I don't know.

 

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Radar before the smoke nerf patch was fine, I'll reserve judgement on the post smoke nerf patch strength.

 

If islands block radar then the only argument people can bring to bear is "muh realisms".  So if that were ever to be implemented then we should go with historical radar range and duration.  For game purposes that would be unlimited range and always on.  I certainly hope this isn't the route we go, since I have a much easier job playing around the current version of radar.

 

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8 minutes ago, mavfin87 said:

Considering that a real WWII (used off Guadalcanal on USS Helena) radar, the SG surface search radar could pick up a destroyer at 15 nautical miles (24 km), and a BB at 22 nautical miles (35.2km), then you'll just have to find a good distance to fit gameplay.  What that might be, I don't know.

 

But if you were close to a landmass it might not pick you up at all.  There were a lot of limitations to early radar.

 

And Hydro too. Hydro was useless if your ship was going over 12 knots. The noise from your ship drowned out the incoming sounds any faster

 

 

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