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NotSynpax

Is there a counter to this clan lineup? I'm guessing not....

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Is there a game theory optimal counter to one conq and six moskvas? 

 

I ran into this tonight and found it rather unstoppable. I can't think of a good counter. A lot of long-distance torping doesn't seem viable. 

Edited by NotSynpax

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And people wonder why such a small percentage of the players come to the forums for help in learning the game.......

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4 minutes ago, Terkoz said:

And people wonder why such a small percentage of the players come to the forums for help in learning the game.......

No, i don't wonder. If you aren't good enough to theory a way to beat something, you probably already aren't good enough to beat them with any strategy given to you. Can't make it idiot proof.

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You don't know that. Looking at your sig I think it's a safe bet you could think of something worthwhile trying to suggest to him. Surely that would be a better move than a put down like that. People are constantly complaining that more players aren't making the effort to get better yet here is a guy doing so and what do you do? 

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24 minutes ago, Terkoz said:

You don't know that. Looking at your sig I think it's a safe bet you could think of something worthwhile trying to suggest to him. Surely that would be a better move than a put down like that. People are constantly complaining that more players aren't making the effort to get better yet here is a guy doing so and what do you do? 

I'm not one of these people wanting more players to get better, so don't bother acting like i'm contradicting myself here.

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Really, asking how to beat something is not making an effort, in fact it's the opposite of making an effort.  Making an effort would be taking your clan into a training room and setting up two teams, one with the setup you are trying to beat, and then use different line ups against until you find one that counters it perfectly - that's making an effort.  Asking random people to tell you how to do it is not making an effort, it's asking for a freebie, leeching off of someone elses EFFORT in how to crack that line up.

It's one thing to ask for optimal strats in beating a Operation or the Halloween mission, because the common opponent is a bot from wargaming.  You don't lose any rewards by helping others gain them.  It's completely different when people are all competing for the same reward.  I hope you see that.

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One conq and 6 moskvas definitely sounds like the signature of a Salty clan team.  1 Conqueror and any combination of hindys/henrys would be my guess as a possible counter.  Burn them all down.  7 Khabs is another possibility, if you have khab players that know how to stay at max range and not take hits.  Again, burn them all down.  I can take out a Moskva easily in a khab one on one, even a Salty clan Moskva.  The trick is to light fires, go dark, light fires, go dark.  You have to be masterful at the dance of staying at max range, knowing your outs, not crashing into islands, using them as cover effectively, etc.  With One Conquerer and 6 Moskva's they only have one potential arial plane (Conqueror spotter plane) if I'm not mistaken (I don't yet own the Moskva so correct me if I'm wrong here).  So it should be much easier to use terrain and stay concealed when firing.

 

The issue here is not just the makeup of ships you bring but also it's about out-hitting and out-maneuvering a clan comprising of the top players on the server.  You cannot alone rely on a specific combination of ships to counter.  You have to have the skill level. And Salty is the #1 clan on the server based on performance metrics meaning that to reliably beat them not just when they have a bad day, but even when they are playing at their best, it would require poaching all the top players from clans 2-5th place and creating a new clan with a clan wars team that has an aggregate team performance capability higher than the Salty clan's clan wars team.  In other words, good luck with that.

 

It's like local intramural team sports, like volleyball.  When a local town league is formed, you have all the best volleyball players that know each other form an uber team and all the rest of the people that want to join but only know a couple people or no one at all create a team or get assigned to fill open spots in teams by the administrators.  No one has a realistic chance of beating the uber team.  Not saying it can't be done, but the skill gap is just too wide to think you have a realistic chance.  Doesn't mean you can't still have fun.  If it's not fun, there's other game modes (backyard volleyball parties, etc.).  Clan wars is not for everyone.  And frankly, it's likely only fun and/or available time-wise to less than 10% of the population. 

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1 hour ago, NotSynpax said:

Is there a game theory optimal counter to one conq and six moskvas? 

 

I ran into this tonight and found it rather unstoppable. I can't think of a good counter. A lot of long-distance torping doesn't seem viable. 

7 gearings

 

jk

 

 

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Moskvas have highly accurate and fast guns great for hitting DDs and strong AP.  + Radar out to 11.7  x6 of them. 

 

Not even Shima's normal 12 km torps would be very good here.  

Gearings have longer range torps right? But die immediately to radar + highly accurate guns. 

7 conq is flat out cuz its clan wars restrictions lol, cmon. 

7 khabs, these can probably still be hit by moskvas. but possible. 

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8 minutes ago, BlailBlerg said:

 

7 khabs, these can probably still be hit by moskvas. but possible. 

 

When I'm in my Khab the Moskva is the ship I fear the most. Frankly I would be really curious to see how a good Khab player does against a comparable Moskva. 

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 Theoretically there is but you never know what strategy is coming against you until you already dropped into a match.

Edited by m373x

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6 minutes ago, Terkoz said:

 

When I'm in my Khab the Moskva is the ship I fear the most. Frankly I would be really curious to see how a good Khab player does against a comparable Moskva. 

 

It can be done but you have to use guerrilla tactics.  Only a minority of the player base knows there are other strategies than just staying consistently engaged firing your guns all the time at a target in range.  You see this play out all the time where if a player simply stopped firing and went dark, he'd have lived and maybe even won the game on time/points.

 

What good clan wars teams do effectively is call out targets and focus fire.  7 khabs can negate much of that advantage if they are blinking in and out of detection forcing the enemy team to have to call a new target and rotate guns to engage.  

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34 minutes ago, Terkoz said:

 

When I'm in my Khab the Moskva is the ship I fear the most. Frankly I would be really curious to see how a good Khab player does against a comparable Moskva. 

Yeah I really doubt 7 khabs beats 6 moskvas and conq. 

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17 minutes ago, VGLance said:

 

It can be done but you have to use guerrilla tactics.  Only a minority of the player base knows there are other strategies than just staying consistently engaged firing your guns all the time at a target in range.  You see this play out all the time where if a player simply stopped firing and went dark, he'd have lived and maybe even won the game on time/points.

 

What good clan wars teams do effectively is call out targets and focus fire.  7 khabs can negate much of that advantage if they are blinking in and out of detection forcing the enemy team to have to call a new target and rotate guns to engage.  

I really hope people post the replay files of these Clan wars battles. Seeing people trying tactics like that out could be very interesting. 

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1 hour ago, VGLance said:

One conq and 6 moskvas definitely sounds like the signature of a Salty clan team.  1 Conqueror and any combination of hindys/henrys would be my guess as a possible counter.  Burn them all down.  7 Khabs is another possibility, if you have khab players that know how to stay at max range and not take hits.  Again, burn them all down.  I can take out a Moskva easily in a khab one on one, even a Salty clan Moskva.  The trick is to light fires, go dark, light fires, go dark.  You have to be masterful at the dance of staying at max range, knowing your outs, not crashing into islands, using them as cover effectively, etc. 

 

This is exactly the reason why I suck at CW. Too boring for me.

Edited by joris92
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Possibly another team of 1 Conq and 6 Moskvas. Whichever team can focus fire better wins

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It has been an interesting clan Wars the first night with some obviously well thought out lineups.  After going 4-0 we went up against the MIA clan who played 7 shimakaze's against our 1 bb, 3 dd's and 3 cruisers.   In what turned out to be a close battle, we didn't counter the shima threat and ended up losing, but what a battle it was.   Excellent play by MIA.  I think our first thought upon seeing 7 shima's was "what the holy torpedo hell is this?"   It's been a fun time so far.

 

 

jqweRZZ.jpg

Edited by CaptNautiguy

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To get the OP going in the right direction look at the strength and weaknesses of the ships in the enemy team.

For example, Conqueror does not handle sustained focus well, eats a lot of pen damage, and torps really hurt it.  Moskva is actually quite squishy, is detected from the moon so it cant disengage easily without cover and can be really vulnerable to focus fire, especially AP in a cross fire from BB or the CAs.  The comp doesnt really have a capping vehicle, and lack of smoke means any ship is in trouble as there is no emergency smoke.

So what if they have 12km radar.  There three caps, you can force them to split their force to defend multiple caps limiting the fire power and radar at a single point, but honestly as vulnerable as this comp is I'd just focus down ships one at a time from outside the radar range.  Kills will keep the points even for quite a while. 

Edited by Destroyer_KuroshioKai

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Well, our team went up against a trio of radar ships last night.  Our BB sent one to the bottom with a triple citadel.  The next followed from a double citadel. We won the match.

 

Pulicat has a point.  You should not ask for help until you have exhausted all of your own options, explain what you did to exhaust those options, and then maybe someone would be a bit more responsive in helping you.  

 

Also, bear in mind that one of the people posting in here may very well be from the team you faced and therefore has good reason not to share the vulnerabilities of the strategy.

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4 hours ago, Pulicat said:

I'm not one of these people wanting more players to get better, so don't bother acting like i'm contradicting myself here.

Why wouldn't you always want good competition to test your skills against?

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4 hours ago, Pulicat said:

No, i don't wonder. If you aren't good enough to theory a way to beat something, you probably already aren't good enough to beat them with any strategy given to you. Can't make it idiot proof.

sigh. Or maybe he is good enough and smart enough to use other's ideas to "theory" a way to beat something, and by using other's ideas he is able "beat something" sooner than he would have he not sought out additional ideas.

Being a jerk off is easy Pulicat. Being kind or showing restraint is the hard part.

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