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Tapioka70

NEPTUNE - Broken with new smoke mechanic

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Not impressed WG.

You broke the Neptune with this smoke mechanic. 6.58km?? That's even greater than the hydro range.

This is what I've experienced so far. DD's now rush me in my smoke. They detect me in and pop their smoke. I can't see them but they can see me then it's a free for all with their teammates.

 

Nice, I bet you didn't think of that one. It's bad enough RN cruisers have their challenges as it is.

Any similar experiences?

 

Edited by Tapioka70
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was thinking of Grinding the IJN BB and British CL line after I get my Conqueror now I have doubts of the British CL line now, they can't sit as close to the heat of the battle as they use to mitigate their floaty shells. maybe I'll grind the RU cruisers instead.    

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Camping in the open in smoke in a RN CL has always been a fairly high risk move.  It just works because random teams don't really play very consistently so you can get away with a lot of shenanigans.  Sure it's a nerf if you look at it this way, but really it's best not to be sitting somewhere where a destroyer has a chance of charging you in the first place.  This change just reinforces that.  The whole idea is supposed to be that you can't sit in smoke unspotted while you can see them and shoot them -- wait for it -- unless you're a destroyer.

 

We might not like it, but it's definitely an example of "working as intended" in this case.

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If you help your friendly destroyer kill the red destroyer, you won't have an issue with red destroyers sneaking near your smoke.'

Conversely, if your friendly destroyer gets destroyed by the red destroyer, you would have had issues with Neptune anyways, as RNCL don't work too well when the red destroyers get a free hall pass.

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All good points. One note, I was not camping in smoke out in the open. I was moving around an island for cover like other regular cruisers do. Problem is you can't really defend your yourself without being detected.

Unless they want to offer up torps on the bow and stern.

 

If this was the unique trait for the RN cruisers, then they just weakened it. Interesting that the Minotaur has more concealment than the Neptune. The Neptune has for me better firing arcs.

 

A great ship that has become substantially more challenging to use. 

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1 hour ago, Tapioka70 said:

Not impressed WG.

You broke the Neptune with this smoke mechanic. 6.58km?? That's even greater than the hydro range.

This is what I've experienced so far. DD's now rush me in my smoke. They detect me in and pop their smoke. I can't see them but they can see me then it's a free for all with their teammates.

 

Nice, I bet you didn't think of that one. It's bad enough RN cruisers have their challenges as it is.

Any similar experiences?

 

1 hour ago, Rolkatsuki said:

was thinking of Grinding the IJN BB and British CL line after I get my Conqueror now I have doubts of the British CL line now, they can't sit as close to the heat of the battle as they use to mitigate their floaty shells. maybe I'll grind the RU cruisers instead.   

Other super fun fact that every one almost forgot about the British CL is instead of smoke, change to radar and learn to adapt to the new play for the line. I got rush in my Neptune by an enemy Minotaur using his radar, he pretty fast closing in, while on/off and he wipe me out

So instead of whining, how about adapt to the other available fun mechanic?

This can also then play as USN CL although the range is meh .............. stop with the whine already ... I had the Neptune, I intended to grind to the Minotaur and  don't care about the new smoke change since I had enough warning time about the change. I had an opportunity to test play before the change so I knew it going to change. Once it changed, I just have to learn how to adapt to it new play and BOOM, the fun continue.

Radar build also helpful

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Yes, I thought of that. I tried the radar, but it seems extremely situational. I will try it some more. I think the smoke bloom is too much honestly. Needs to be reduced.

Maybe it needs to be played like a desmoines, but it doesn't have the same range.

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for some player once they smoke, their mentality go to defense mode, that why dd rush them inside their smoke. But AP also deadly to dd as well and Neptune had torps .. so with the new update, learn the new play style. Don't just go and whine about it

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I'm trying the new playstyle, not working for me. Just saying it's poor balancing.

 

That's ok I will play other ships instead. 

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give it couple more tries ....... I am sure it will click one day for you ....

don't forget British is laughable with the armor, so mentally, you going to be like - every high tier can 1 shot you, so you opt for cover like island, if you use smoke, and smoke behind island the boom also limited by LOS. The firing arc from the Neptune ... it can get other ships behind islands.

So the smoke mechanic can still usable, torp to fend of any advances ..... be a sneaky ninja. DONT ever be pop your nose out too long, any good player can aim behind the edge of the island to citadel you ... so be smart, more mini map awareness, checking distance don't tunnel vision

Oh Pop your acoustic ----- did anyone check the range of Neptune acoustic and compare that to the boom inside smoke??

Edited by ObiwankzKenobi

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3 hours ago, ObiwankzKenobi said:

 

Other super fun fact that every one almost forgot about the British CL is instead of smoke, change to radar and learn to adapt to the new play for the line. I got rush in my Neptune by an enemy Minotaur using his radar, he pretty fast closing in, while on/off and he wipe me out

So instead of whining, how about adapt to the other available fun mechanic?

This can also then play as USN CL although the range is meh .............. stop with the whine already ... I had the Neptune, I intended to grind to the Minotaur and  don't care about the new smoke change since I had enough warning time about the change. I had an opportunity to test play before the change so I knew it going to change. Once it changed, I just have to learn how to adapt to it new play and BOOM, the fun continue.

Radar build also helpful

Yeah you are right Obi I shoulda check the infomation available at my fingertips before spitting out words that Im gonna end up eating because it just sounded really bad on my behalf sorry about that I'll be extra wary of the avaliable facts as much as I can before making a comment. /-_\\ 

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12 hours ago, Rolkatsuki said:

check the infomation available at my fingertips

I tried a couple of game on Fiji/Eddy ... it doesn't look good, It was very hard to adapt to the new play. I will try a couple more weeks .. and if it still not work out, I think I will move on to the RU like you suggested ........

I played a high tier game once, where I got constant radar by an Eddy, it was very annoying since all my allies on the other side of the island or too far back, there is no LOS so we lost the game, but I managed to score 2 citadel hits and 3 torps into the Yamato ............................. it still a ka-ching for me at the end

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On ‎10‎/‎18‎/‎2017 at 11:13 PM, Tapioka70 said:

Yes, I thought of that. I tried the radar, but it seems extremely situational. I will try it some more. I think the smoke bloom is too much honestly. Needs to be reduced.

Maybe it needs to be played like a desmoines, but it doesn't have the same range.

I might try a Radar build on my Neptune. I seldom use smoke on Neptune or Fiji primarily because it tells the Reds where I am and draws searching fire and torps. I've also had BBs push me out of the smoke and park their own asses there. I have Des Moines and I'll try playing Neptune like I do DM. Wish me luck, I'm gonna need it!

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On 10/19/2017 at 1:07 PM, ObiwankzKenobi said:

So instead of whining, how about adapt to the other available fun mechanic?

 

overcome.jpg

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On 10/18/2017 at 8:25 PM, Tapioka70 said:

Not impressed WG.

You broke the Neptune with this smoke mechanic. 6.58km?? That's even greater than the hydro range.

This is what I've experienced so far. DD's now rush me in my smoke. They detect me in and pop their smoke. I can't see them but they can see me then it's a free for all with their teammates.

 

Nice, I bet you didn't think of that one. It's bad enough RN cruisers have their challenges as it is.

Any similar experiences?

 

The effect of the smoke nerf is in the data.  Damage and XP are what matters because if teammates pickup the slack of a weak(er) ship to pad win % that's immaterial.  Since the smoke nerf, all other T9 CAs remained the same or improved EXCEPT the Neptune.  The Neptune dropped from a strong third to second the last.  The Neptune is a more POS Baltimore with the smoke nerf because its AP simply cannot do damage relative to damage it takes (due to horrible armor) once spotted, made worse by its poor rudder shift, shatter-prone shells with horrible float at range and added detection.  All DDs need to do is get within 6.6km of smoke, and with a spotting distance of 10.4km on the Neptune that's not hard to do.  The stats since the smoke nerf show all this.

 

All, Neptune  (10/28/2017) 
Damage: 51,065   
XP: 1,422

 

2 Weeks, Neptune (10/28/2017)    
Damage: 47,008 (-8%)   
XP: 1,317 (-7%)

 

And, the smoke nerf nerfed the entire RN CA line, excluding Belfast because it has effective HE:

 

All (10/30/2017)
    Minotaur    66,725    1,622    
    Neptune        51,015    1,420    
    Belfast        46,610    1,390    
    Fiji        41,231    1,201    
    Edinburgh    40,394    1,284    

 

2 Weeks (10/30/2017)
    Minotaur    63,808    1,567    
    Neptune        46,555    1,309    
    Belfast        47,470    1,381    
    Fiji        37,847    1,118    
    Edinburgh    36,988    1,197

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As usual, WG [edited] up again. I'm getting really tired of their lazy incompetence.

Neptune's in-smoke firing detection range is WAAAAY out of line with the other RN CAs.

Fiji:  5.4km

Edinburgh:  5.5km

Neptune:  6.6km

Minotaur: 5.4km

 

There's no excuse whatsoever for this. The RN CAs use EXACTLY the same caliber guns. In fact, the Neptune's mount is identical to the T7/8 CAs except for a better loader.

Neptune's detection should be 5.5 or 5.6km.  Anything else is just B-S.

 

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I tried out Neptune with Radar in place of smoke. My survivability was no worse, and may have been better, without smoke. Damage dealing overall wasn't any better or worse either. However, the radar helped me and teammates by revealing Reds that were hiding in smoke, much more useful than a smoke cloud. Goodbye smoke, I'm gonna stick with Radar on Neptune. I found a solution to the new smoke mechanic. :cap_like:

I have a difficult time using smoke well anyway. It seems like unless I'm stationary when I pop it, my bow winds up sticking out of the cloud and aint hiding me.

Edited by ReddNekk

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The Neptune detection is huge now. Still workable but you must be more careful now. 

 

What annoys me is ship's can detect me and shoot at less then 6km but i can't detect them outside the smoke..... yes they were out of hydro range. That was very annoying

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On 19/10/2017 at 4:25 AM, Tapioka70 said:

Not impressed WG.

You broke the Neptune with this smoke mechanic. 6.58km?? That's even greater than the hydro range.

I'm sorry for any frustration caused by your experience @Tapioka70, I will make sure to bring this area of concern to the attention of our team

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Thanks everyone for the responses, much appreciated.

 

I still think the smoke range is excessive on the Neptune compared to the other RN cruisers. I played Edinburgh and that's lots of fun even in the new smoke mechanic. I suspect the range set on the Neptune was based on damage output stats, but that still feels excessive.

 

Consider:

6.48km detectability in smoke

4.68km hydro

 

That's 1.8 km that any ship can sneak up and detect you and you can't see them. In particular DD's can easily do this and still be out of their detection range!

 

Plus consider (and I've experienced this)

  • You smoke up, have hydro on
  • DD rush towards you, they see you, you cannot see them (outside hydro range, and 1.8km is a pretty comfortable buffer)
  • You get obliterated by BB's because they see you thanks to the dd while you "slowly" move out of position to compensate.

It doesn't work. It works for the other RN cruisers because a dd gets into their spotting range and is considerably more risky for them.

I think the recent change of smoke for slowing down RN cruisers, would have been better if the cruisers were more nimble to deal with spotting changes.

Thank you WG for at least listening. As NHF mentioned, the stats are starting to bear that out. I'm curious if the ship is being played less as a result?

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After a little experimenting it has become my favourite thing in DDs - messing with RN cruisers. You see one smoke up in a wide-open position and then you simply come close, and I did it with RN cruisers of all tiers, and force them out of the smoke. And RN cruiser who can't use her smoke is quite useless to the team. So it's fun driving a DD. But then when I play RN cruisers I've never been caught this way so the simple solution is to not be overly aggressive and not smoke up in the open. Choose a safe position for the smoke. Use islands as cover so that even if you get spotted in your smoke you can just sail a touch forward and you're under the cover of island. 

 

On the other hand what has become not fun is that you see a tier 8-10 RN cruiser and you have to guess whether he's running smoke or radar and I've been caught off guard a few times. A Neptune with radar 10 km away from you is really bad news, not so much with Mino thanks to slow shells. 

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Yes, I tried radar on the neptune, what a joke. With the lousy ruddershift and acceleration, it doesn't work well even using cover.

Very situational.

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23 hours ago, Tapioka70 said:

Yes, I tried radar on the neptune, what a joke. With the lousy ruddershift and acceleration, it doesn't work well even using cover.

Very situational.

The Neptune was a one trick pony and WOW took away the pony with the smoke detection nerf.  This massive nerf effected the whole RN CA line, but the Neptune most of all.  It's garbage now: More thoughts here.

 

Stats as of 11/17/2017:

 

All (Damage, XP)
    Minotaur     66,454    1,617    
    Neptune     50,721    1,414    
    Belfast        46,635    1,390
    Fiji              41,092    1,197    
    Edinburgh  40,206    1,280    


2 Weeks (Damage, XP)
    Minotaur    62,916    (-6%) 1,567    
    Belfast       49,449    (-3%) 1,438    
    Neptune    44,767    (-12%) 1,288    
    Fiji              37,886    (-8%) 1,119    
    Edinburgh  36,160    (-10%) 1,183

Edited by nhf
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