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Does the new smoke mechanics screw the radar CAs?

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4 hours ago, crzyhawk said:
13 hours ago, Cobraclutch said:

Go into smoke, 

 

Hold fire.

 

Radar 

 

Profit

This.  Hold your fire, remain unspotted.

 

It doesn't work that way.

The real sequence is:

1) Go in smoke

2) Hold Fire

3) Radar

4) Roll RNG

5) Profit or Loss

The problem here is step (4) 

Why?

Because the outcome has no bearing on the merits of a player who creates this chance, but on the Matchmaker's random chance of pulling in competent players.

I just tried it in my Baltimore; asked a Gearing for a smoke into B in Atlantic, radar'd the cap, spotted 3 DDs simultaenously for almost the full 35 sec duration of my radar, but I could only fire a single shot at the tail end because one DD was within 7 km of the window (and I could not delete it alone).  Nobody else was willing to close in with the caps except the Gearing, a Benson, and myself, and the red DDs got away mostly scott free on what would have been their misplay (It's clear they had no idea I was there until it was too late).  Needless to say, none of the other random players were firing at the red DDs.  One red DD even panic-smoked like an idiot and sat in that smoke the entire duration of the radar.  And the only reason why I got out of B unscathed was because they were so brain-dead, they actually left the cap after my radar ended, smoked up, and sat in their smoke to pew-pew, when they could have gotten me spotted and deleted by their Battleships before I ducked into the A-B islands.

Of course, they "won" by eventually capping B.

These are the kinds of idiots who "outplayed" us.

This is the kind of "teamwork" that wins; aka yolo rushes", "panic smoking", "everyone for himself scattering" and "sitting back inside your own smoke, pew-pewing" instead of "spotting for teammates".

Either they had no concept of smoking their teammates in with them and spotting for them, or their teammates had no inkling of following them.  Or worse yet, they were smarter than us and realized that any attempt at teamwork wouldn't be worth it in the current random meta.

To be clear, these 3 DDs had no situational awareness whatsoever; they yolo bungled into the middle of a cap with a radar cruiser, but because the patch handcuffs the cruiser (and not the DDs), they don't suffer nearly as badly for it.  It's possible my Baltimore might not have killed any one of these DDs alone (although at those ranges, and with 2 DDs, even the Baltimore's slow reload would have been enough to kill at least one red DD, especially when I'm certain to break their engines on consecutive salvos), but we might have stood a better chance of coming out on top of the exchange (we lost the Gearing to a combination of gunfire and a Torpedo) if I'd been able to fire 4 salvos instead of just one.  Losing your firepower obviates much of the advantage of pushing the cap, and the only way to get into close range with a cruiser like the Baltimore on these huge, wide open maps is with a smoke.  And exposing yourself to Conqueror and Yamato batteries means you are more likely to lose the exchange if you do open fire.

Bottom line: there is no clear advantage to pushing objectives if all you're going to end up with is a crapshoot with someone else rolling the dice, and betting with your money.

It's not a game of skill.

It's a slot-machine.

And I have very little interest in playing such a game - what would be the satisfaction in winning when you know your own merits - or demerits - have so little say in the outcome?  Where oblivious players have a similar chance of winning opposite players that actually succeed in playing it smart?

1 hour ago, crzyhawk said:

Honestly, I LIKE this change in my Belfast.  I picked up a couple of DD kills tonight that I wouldn't have gotten otherwise.  As soon as I get lit in smoke, I popped radar and mashed the throttle, the DD's who spotted me didn't live long.  A couple of them may have been able to launch torps that I wasn't expecting, had I not been detected and knew that I needed to hit the radar.  I immediately knew where the DD was and where potential torps could be coming from.  As far as I am concerned my Belfast is stronger than ever.

That is a function of the OP nature of the Belfast.

It has nothing to do with with the USN line, particularly the upper tiers.

You had a fast-firing cruiser against DDs with low health pools like those at T5.

In a Baltimore against DDs with 20k health, it takes 4-5 salvos to deplete their HP bar, even assuming you land full broadsides.  I landed better than half my salvo at about 8 km range - 4k dmg and it didn't come close to killing the Fletcher.  It would take close to the full 35 sec for me to eliminate a DD in the higher tiers, and I will have been deleted long before then, even assuming the DD stayed within the 7 km smoke detection range and hadn't bolted.

An oblivious trio of DDs "outplaying" me just by haphazardly meandering into point blank range of my radar cruiser and scattering once they were lit up, while Yamatos and Conquerors camp at 15 km range south of the B cap....I'm sorry, but winning a chess match against 3-year old toddlers would be a more revealing exercise of skill, than negotiating with this a reward-system that actively caters to, and encourages retardation.

It was already difficult for USN cruisers to fulfill the roles that British and Russian cruisers could routinely accomplish solo.  It's much the same difference between your Belfast and my Atlanta.  Fine, British cruisers are easy-mode, but if players in the USN cruiser line are going to be forced to demonstrate higher degrees of skill by navigating such vulnerable ships with so many disadvantages, there should be a payoff of some sort.

Otherwise, what's the point of playing them?

Edited by Jerych
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It definitely has made me less eager to brawl in German BBs as a net gain of the change because that firing bloom yo.  Still coming to grips with that.

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9 hours ago, crzyhawk said:

Honestly, I LIKE this change in my Belfast.  I picked up a couple of DD kills tonight that I wouldn't have gotten otherwise.  As soon as I get lit in smoke, I popped radar and mashed the throttle, the DD's who spotted me didn't live long.  A couple of them may have been able to launch torps that I wasn't expecting, had I not been detected and knew that I needed to hit the radar.  I immediately knew where the DD was and where potential torps could be coming from.  As far as I am concerned my Belfast is stronger than ever.

I had a major butt clenching moment where I was taking on a Benson in my Z-46. 

 

I had in dead to rights, with a friendly Gearing in smoke. Tell the Gearing "Gonna hydro the Benson get ready" 

 

Smoke up at about 4km, but I keep a slow approach onto the target (totally forgetting about the new smoke changes) 

 

I come to a halt at 2.7 km and I all of a sudden get lit. "wth!" 

 

 

Then I realized the smoke firing  penalty was in effect lol! I only lost 2 k health but I really got caught off suprise cause i figured it was around 2.5.. Live and learn haha

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12 hours ago, yashma said:

Yes it is a nerf to radar cruisers.....but it is also probably a needed nerf.  

hmm idk.  I have my doubts.  Did the US CA line really need a nerf?  They rely on getting close to caps to be useful.   They don't have the armor to really tank.  Their guns aren't really something you want to be using for long range gunnery outside of shooting BBs.  I know in my US CAs, i loved pushing up to caps, or playing near them.  Now idk if i want to get remotely near a cap unless i have hard cover.  Hard cover isn't the easiest to come by on high tier maps either.  RN CAs are hurt as well, but idk if they were hurt as bad as US CAs.  The long range HE spamming lines aren't hurt as bad. 

 

This change effects BBs the most in terms of being spotted while firing from smoke distance wise.  but in practical sense, this hurts CA the most as they rely on cover(hard or soft) to live, and this hurts their ability to use cover and do damage.  BBs don't need smoke to play well.  They are tanky enough they don't need it.(certainly helps them though)

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They're forcing you to use smoke differently than rolling up to 9km and pushing the "I win" button twice.

 

Smoke is now about denying line of sight and shooting behind the smoke. This will force CA and BB players to git gud with their aim and bring fighter/spotter props back into the meta. This is a massive indirect nerf to one of the most OP radar strats.

 

Radar is still OP as hell but this is a good start.

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33 minutes ago, Frederick_The_Great said:

hmm idk.  I have my doubts.  Did the US CA line really need a nerf?  They rely on getting close to caps to be useful.   They don't have the armor to really tank.  Their guns aren't really something you want to be using for long range gunnery outside of shooting BBs.  I know in my US CAs, i loved pushing up to caps, or playing near them.  Now idk if i want to get remotely near a cap unless i have hard cover.  Hard cover isn't the easiest to come by on high tier maps either.  RN CAs are hurt as well, but idk if they were hurt as bad as US CAs.  The long range HE spamming lines aren't hurt as bad. 

 

This change effects BBs the most in terms of being spotted while firing from smoke distance wise.  but in practical sense, this hurts CA the most as they rely on cover(hard or soft) to live, and this hurts their ability to use cover and do damage.  BBs don't need smoke to play well.  They are tanky enough they don't need it.(certainly helps them though)

I agree with you about USN cruisers not needing a nerf...but I still feel their potential was too high when scaled with team work.  A Des Moines can follow a smoking DD into a cap, close to under 10km with out ever being spotted, and then pop radar and massacre every DD in the area.....all the while being safe from direct return fire.  

*In light of the smoke nerf, I'd propose giving USN cruisers a small armor buff to make them more viable on the front lines.  Say, give the Des Moines and Baltimore 30mm upper belt armor, and the New Orleans 27mm armor.

Edited by yashma

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I've never really been one to camp in smoke in my Cruisers so it hasn't effected me much, and I play the USN Cruiser line, and always take Radar.

 

IMO Radar and hiding in smoke don't really go perfectly together. When Radar is up you're often fighting a battle to keep the DD in an engageable range, which requires movement.

 

The CLs don't really lose that much as smoking from close range was already countered by Sonar.

 

DDs remain mostly unchanged.

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2 minutes ago, yashma said:

I agree with you about USN cruisers not needing a nerf...but I still feel their potential was too high when scaled with team work.  A Des Moines can follow a smoking DD into a cap, close to under 10km with out ever being spotted, and then pop radar and massacre every DD in the area.....all the while being safe from direct return fire.  

*In light of the smoke nerf, I'd propose giving USN cruisers a small armor buff to make them more viable on the front lines.  Say, give the Des Moines and Baltimore 30mm upper belt armor, and the New Orleans 27mm armor.

To me, the USN lines overall are the best if you have a lot of teamwork.  Outside of that, they don't really shine as well.  Gearing or US DDs smokes in general are great if people actually use them.  USN Radar is fantastic as is their AP, but you need to get in closer to make great use of it.  high tier USN BBs are reliable durable, and all 3 lines have good AA.   That means in a div, they are really potent.  Solo gearing to me is just meh.  DM is great if played well, but if you have no one helping you, you are in for a rough match.   Monty is a BB, so its always good, even with bad teammates when you play solo. 

 

IF teamwork in randoms was a common thing, i think USN overall would be better.  They are great support ships that synergize well with each other,   You just don't see enough of that these days and because of the lack of support, they don't do as well.

 

Anyways, buffing some of the US ships is difficult, as buffing them in certain areas for solo play may make Div play even more potent.   I agree that some armor buffs would be welcome.  Having the ability to bounce shells when angled from BBs would be really nice.(i support this for every cruiser in the game, not just USN CA)   IDK if giving the DM 30 upper belt armor would do anything in terms of auto bounce.  the DM can already auto bounce BIs/Tirp shells nose on.  I think 16in shells could still over match it as well.   You would need at least 32mm i think.  The yammy could still over match that.  30mm on the balti would be similar.    27mm to the NO would let it bow on face the bis and tirp.(the NO could of used some love anyways before this last patch.  maybe a heal)that wouldn't be something to scoff at. 

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So, my takeaway from the smoke change is; 

 

Gone will be the days of:

 

jyu2U1a.png

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17 hours ago, Jerych said:

 


At the tiers you're playing (T5-T6), it is highly unlikely that many, if any, random Battleship players have the presence of mind to stay in smoke as a DD smokes him.  

 

Just over 1/4 of my games are in T7-9 ships. And since I grind all lines at once, probably 2/3 to 3/4 of the games I've played in the last 6 months are those tiers.

 

But yeah, I get what you're saying. It's only in the T9-10 games I'm seeing people get caught out like that. Although in T5-6, plenty of BB players have the presence of mind to push a ship out of existing smoke and sit in it.

 

T5&6, my most common experience with smoke is a friendly DD going into the cap, popping smoke and sitting in it, then screaming for support, when he's just blocked LOS to the enemy. :Smile_teethhappy:

Edited by Skpstr

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On 10/18/2017 at 6:35 PM, Jerych said:

The point is that this is a nerf to the Des Moines and USN cruiser line in general more than any other Cruiser line.

The Minotaur, for example, has more than twice the leeway in smoke firing range than the Des Moines when using radar.  

The Minotaur has a 4.5km gap between its smoke detection and the max range of its radar.  

The Des Moines? 1.82 km.

That's not a small difference; that's a chasm. 

The American cruisers, which were already the worst radar ships behind the Russians and the British, are now even further behind.  Even worse, one of the few US cruisers worth a damn, the Des Moines - which was supposed to be the prize at the end of a bad line from the Phoenix and Omaha to the New Orleans and Baltimore - got more than a few of its teeth pulled.

====================

It's worse for the USN cruiser line, because the Des Moines "CA" designation doesn't include the "Armor" attribute game-wise.  

The Des Moines still plays like a light cruiser.  It just doesn't get any of the benefits, including the Minotaur's ability to smoke-fire at DDs for 2-3 times longer than the DM.  As for firing while being exposed?  The DM has no troll armor like the Zao, no turtle-back armor like the Hindenberg, and don't talk to me about the Moskva; that thing is a mis-represented Battleship with a long-ranged radar and rail-guns.

^^^^^ All of this.

Let me preface this post by saying I've never played a Mino. My knowledge of T10 CAs is the DM and Hindy (see username). Both of which I have really enjoyed playing until now.

I understand the Mino fragile, but outside of that, has many great benefits over DM (I'm trying to compare apples/apples).

A radar Mino, played in div or with teammate USDD, acts like a DM doing the same, except with 2x ROF and torps.

A smoke Mino, played in div or with teammate USDD, has the potential to stay hidden for 4 minutes. 4 MINUTES! Do that 3 times and it's been hidden for minimum 60% of the battle. At a ROF of 2.8sec, a Mino can drop 800+ shells (80 per gun, 10 guns) while never being seen. Even at 250dmg/shell avg, that's 200k of easy, unseen dmg. It will quickly shred just about anything floating, especially red team CAs. A DM is at only ~2min (DD smoke) and that's assuming that there's no red DD around to spot them. In the first 5 min, that is not likely and they get deleted. But lets say they're not spotted. At a max ROF of 4.8sec, the DM can put up 225 (25 per gun, 9 guns) shells in 2min of smoke. At 250dmg/shell, that's ~57k dmg. So the Mino is putting out almost 4x dmg over the DM, while being unseen. Even in only 2 minutes of smoke, the Mino is nearly 2x the damge. The only thing the DM has going for it over the Mino is SLIGHTLY better armor and the use of HE for fire starting. I usually am successful at burning BBs for decent dmg.

Throw a supporting radar Moskva in (with 30 seconds of 11.7km radar) with Mino and USDD and you get a shredding/citing machine.

Feel free to argue my math. Like I said, I have never played a Mino, so I might be overstating it. And yes, I know, anyone staying in smoke for 4 minutes will be subjected to blind fire and torps, but that goes for both sides of the equation. RPF and angling will limit that damage, but again, that applies for both the DM and Mino.

Then there's the pretty good 10km torps that reload in 86 seconds and deal 16.7k dmg.

And I almost forgot the repair party. Repairs 17k HP in 20 seconds each time for a total of 68k, almost 160% of base HP. The DM gets 7k in 28 seconds each time for 28k total, about 55% of base HP. So the Mino will take roughly 111k to kill (if RP'd well) and only 78k (about 70% of Mino) to kill DM. There's a 33k HP advantage to the DM, regardless of smoke or radar.

So the way I see it, maybe wrongfully so, is that the Mino, when compared to DM, is now an invisible DM with 10k torps, 111k HP, a repair party that can fix 40k more HP and does 2x-4x the damage, but minus the HE option for fires.

How is that anywhere near being within parity and balance for T10 CAs?? It's not WGing.

For me, the DM was at least fun to play, especially with smoke help in first few minutes of the game. Now, in the first few minutes, it's become a passive radar ship, hoping against all odds, that teammates will actually try to kill the red DD lit up in cap. That requires at least some teamwork, which seems to happen less and less.

OMG, why am I spending any more time posting this when I could be grinding up the UK CA ladder?!?

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On 10/18/2017 at 1:16 PM, AraAragami said:

Battleships don't camp because of smoke.

 

Battleships don't camp because of torpedoes.

 

Battleships camp because of battleships.

giphy.gif

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On 10/18/2017 at 10:37 PM, Jerych said:
On 10/18/2017 at 6:21 PM, crzyhawk said:
On 10/18/2017 at 8:47 AM, Cobraclutch said:

Go into smoke, 

 

Hold fire.

 

Radar 

 

Profit

This.  Hold your fire, remain unspotted.

 

It doesn't work that way.

The real sequence is:

1) Go in smoke

2) Hold Fire

3) Radar

4) Roll RNG

5) Profit or Loss

The problem here is step (4) 

NOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHY DDS HATE SPOTTING?  ITS STUPID, IT GIVES YOU NO CONTROL OF THE GAME, IT REQUIRES YOU TO HAVE TEAMMATES WHO ACTUALLY SHOOT WHAT YOU SPOT, LISTEN TO YOU, CARE ABOUT WINNING THE GAME. 

 

There is no way I can be normal about talking about this.  This is probably the most infuriating part about the game right now for DDs. Not even radar.  I can live with radar.  I can survive radar through island.  I CANNOT WIN WHEN MY POTATO TEAMMATES DONT DO JACK ABOUT ME SPOTTING AND BEING AT THE FRONT LINES. And then my guns are garbage and can't kill anything myself. 

 

Plus to add insult to injury, my friend and I get more spotting dmg in our BBs, as they get into the late game. 

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