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permanentnoob

Does the new smoke mechanics screw the radar CAs?

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So with a spotted range of 7-11km for top tier CAs in smoke (except Brits), how are they supposed to support a DD fighting for cap?

When playing radar, I usually ask the local DD for smoke near cap (preferably next to island to retreat to) and radar the whole cap. Light up the DD and kill him so DD can cap. Then use remaining smoke time to burn BBs before pushing forward or retreating.

Now, as soon as I fire, the entire red fleet will try to kill me because the DD I'm shooting at will most likely be within my 7-11km spotting range. And in a radar CA, I draw a crapload of fire when spotted.

I think this whole smoke spotting change will simply lead to a lot more camping/hiding. I mean really, you don't want to stick your bow out and get deleted in the first 2 min, so what do you do? Wait for the DD to do the spotting? Radar the cap, but don't fire? Hide behind islands like everyone else and be useless?

I like all the other changes in 6.12 (50% bonus, clan battles, rebalance Brit BBs, DW torps, etc.), but these new spotting ranges for CAs in smoke is going to affect game play in a huge way.

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The new smoke mechanics make it so BB's can now advance and retaliate against the ships that used to be invisible in smoke. It should help to alleviate camping, but that remains to be seen, I'm not holding my breath.

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7 minutes ago, Sovereigndawg said:

The new smoke mechanics make it so BB's can now advance and retaliate against the ships that used to be invisible in smoke. It should help to alleviate camping, but that remains to be seen, I'm not holding my breath.

Neither am I....

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24 minutes ago, Cobraclutch said:

Go into smoke, 

 

Hold fire.

 

Radar 

 

Profit

 

How dare you be logical?

 

Like a game last night. Friendly Mutsuki down to 10% health. Only ship able to spot the bad guys. Smoke on CD, so he runs away, (good idea) opens the distance enough to go dark, (good idea) but insists on continuously firing his one popgun that will bear on the enemy as he runs... (not so good idea)

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Yes this new update is changed everything get ready for campers get your tents ready

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8 minutes ago, silverdahc said:

Yes this new update is changed everything get ready for campers get your tents ready

 

Lol you mean get ready for all the salt from those who don't pay attention to patches. They'll be crying "h4x!" when their stationary BB hiding in smoke 10km out gets dumped on as soon as they fire.

 

I plan on taking full advantage of the transition....

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I don't see what the problem is. Now you will have to take a risk when in a Gearing+Des Moines division

So, either sneak into smoke, take a risk and get spotted when shooting, or don't take a risk and use your radar for spotting only.

Alternatively, setup behind an island, per usual.

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You don't have to shoot when you radar you know. Radar so your team can shoot them. Yesterday, a MO radared a DD, and nearly killed him. There was an island between my NO and the DD, but I asked the MO if he had a shot, he said yes, so I radared, and the MO got the DD. It's called teamwork, even though I didn't do any damage to the DD. It was a T10 match, and my contribution was mostly sneaking up and radaring people, so the BBs could shoot them. I didn't get any kills, and only did 60-70K damage, but I was second on experience.

 

Also, there's a reason you don't have smoke, you can survive without it. Thus you can be seen while firing, and not instantly die. Maybe try WASD next time, instead of camping in a smoke screen.

 

Or radar from behind an island.

 

The only way radar is less important is now you won't pick up half the enemy fleet in one smoke screen.

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I don't think it changes that much for radar ships, maybe makes them a little less useful.

What I do see is making UK radar CL more compelling when in a division with a DD.  The change indirectly gives it an edge that wasn't there before.

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The smoke change hurts a Radar CA like DM more than the Radar CLs like Belfast.  DMs in a Division frequently pull up with smoke dropped by a Div DD, pop radar, and go to town.  This smoke change makes it risky to fire.  IMO this change was squarely aimed at these kinds of CAs.  The CLs got off the hook, honestly.

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33 minutes ago, silverdahc said:

Yes this new update is changed everything get ready for campers get your tents ready

This. The islands will be chaffed with the dramatic increase in humping.

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I'm all for taking away anything that can't effectively be countered without passive play.  You say this will encourage camping and, you're right, for some players it will.  However, the fear of getting smashed by invisible radar ships was also encouraging players to camp.  Really though, radar in general is encouraging DDs to camp or at least be far more passive.  BB shells are also encouraging CLs to camp.  Torpedoes and fires are encouraging BBs to camp.  Everything seems to encourage somebody to camp lol...  There are too many moving parts and too many people with too many different play styles to ever really balance the game enough to make everyone happy, I guess.

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57 minutes ago, Sovereigndawg said:

The new smoke mechanics make it so BB's can now advance and retaliate against the ships that used to be invisible in smoke. It should help to alleviate camping, but that remains to be seen, I'm not holding my breath.

 

It won't do anything to alleviate camping. It will just force smoke cruisers to play further back. 

 

Anyone who doubts this has never played a high-tier game with few or no smokes. They're every bit as campy (slightly moreso in my experience) than high-tier games with lots of smokes. 

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11 minutes ago, Rocketpacman said:

 

It won't do anything to alleviate camping. It will just force smoke cruisers to play further back. 

 

Anyone who doubts this has never played a high-tier game with few or no smokes. They're every bit as campy (slightly moreso in my experience) than high-tier games with lots of smokes. 

It will at least make me want to head towards the smoke that is hurling fire balls at me, because you now don't have to get within 2KM to see them and it is now an option, instead of dropping back it's feasible to advance. Maybe the Campers will still camp, but the advancers can now at least shoot back at something they can see. Not everyone, with a BB, camps.

Edited by Sovereigndawg

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46 minutes ago, MrDeaf said:

I don't see what the problem is. Now you will have to take a risk when in a Gearing+Des Moines division

So, either sneak into smoke, take a risk and get spotted when shooting, or don't take a risk and use your radar for spotting only.

Alternatively, setup behind an island, per usual.

You kind of made my point. NO/Balti/DM will get instadelete if they fire within smoke. Their armor is just not up to taking the beating that will ensue. I'm mostly referring to the first 5 min when u have 3-6 reds (or more) going to the same cap.

 

45 minutes ago, AJTP89 said:

You don't have to shoot when you radar you know. Radar so your team can shoot them. Yesterday, a MO radared a DD, and nearly killed him. There was an island between my NO and the DD, but I asked the MO if he had a shot, he said yes, so I radared, and the MO got the DD. It's called teamwork, even though I didn't do any damage to the DD. It was a T10 match, and my contribution was mostly sneaking up and radaring people, so the BBs could shoot them. I didn't get any kills, and only did 60-70K damage, but I was second on experience.

Also, there's a reason you don't have smoke, you can survive without it. Thus you can be seen while firing, and not instantly die. Maybe try WASD next time, instead of camping in a smoke screen.

Or radar from behind an island.

The only way radar is less important is now you won't pick up half the enemy fleet in one smoke screen.

Let me preface my reply by saying I'm not any sort of unicum player. I'm average at best in a CA. My stats don't show it, but I feel like I play a DM decently.

I've had many games in the DM like you describe. I don't beg for smoke and camp in it all day either. Usually only at the beginning of a match do I try to use smoke more effectively. But in that first 5 min, I'm pretty good at routing out and/or killing a DD from cap. That's a huge plus to the team overall. Then I usually go back into more of support mode radaring/burning BBs/supporting DDs, etc. Your comments (see bold above) about teamwork ASSUME that there is any teamwork at all. I find that more and more potatoes are being served, even at T10. While it is logical to rely on teammates to help, it doesn't always happen.

But like I said, I'm not a unicum player and still have more to learn.

 

25 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

The smoke change hurts a Radar CA like DM more than the Radar CLs like Belfast.  DMs in a Division frequently pull up with smoke dropped by a Div DD, pop radar, and go to town.  This smoke change makes it risky to fire.  IMO this change was squarely aimed at these kinds of CAs.  The CLs got off the hook, honestly.

This for sure.

Edited by permanentnoob

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Learn to play some other way than hiding in smoke or behind an island.  I do it all the time, trust me, it's way more fun.

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2 hours ago, Sovereigndawg said:

The new smoke mechanics make it so BB's can now advance and retaliate against the ships that used to be invisible in smoke. It should help to alleviate camping, but that remains to be seen, I'm not holding my breath.

Battleships don't camp because of smoke.

 

Battleships don't camp because of torpedoes.

 

Battleships camp because of battleships.

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7 hours ago, permanentnoob said:

So with a spotted range of 7-11km for top tier CAs in smoke (except Brits), how are they supposed to support a DD fighting for cap?

When playing radar, I usually ask the local DD for smoke near cap (preferably next to island to retreat to) and radar the whole cap. Light up the DD and kill him so DD can cap. Then use remaining smoke time to burn BBs before pushing forward or retreating.

Now, as soon as I fire, the entire red fleet will try to kill me because the DD I'm shooting at will most likely be within my 7-11km spotting range. And in a radar CA, I draw a crapload of fire when spotted.

I think this whole smoke spotting change will simply lead to a lot more camping/hiding. I mean really, you don't want to stick your bow out and get deleted in the first 2 min, so what do you do? Wait for the DD to do the spotting? Radar the cap, but don't fire? Hide behind islands like everyone else and be useless?

I like all the other changes in 6.12 (50% bonus, clan battles, rebalance Brit BBs, DW torps, etc.), but these new spotting ranges for CAs in smoke is going to affect game play in a huge way.


It's wrong to perceive this as nerf against any particular line.  Rather, it is a nerf agtainst teamwork and skilled play, which will close the skill gap and allow entry-level players to compete more closely with skilled players.  

That is the common thread to all the recent developments in WoWs.

Of course, certain ship lines and classses are more team and skill-oriented than other ship lines, so it inevitably impacts them more negatively.  A player who wants to play "yolo-hero" and ignore his teammates is far more likely to play an IJN or VMF DD, than a USN or KM DD.  If you're getting smoked by a DD, coordinating close fire-support with DD, asking for a spot from a ship driven by a total stranger in a random battle, etc, chances are it's a USN DD driver coordinating with, not the Khabarovsk kiting in the corner of the map, or the Shimakaze on his solo adventure hunting torp hits - neither of which are mounting smoke, and if they did mount it, they intend to use it for themselves.

Smoke doesn't frustrate skilled-play - in fact, it's an essential fulcrum for skilled gamesmanship in WoWs. 

Smoke frustrates un-skilled play, exposing it. 

And many frustrated players rage-quit the game out of humiliation, which is part of a competitive scene at any venue, but presumably is not in WG's perceived self-interest.

 

6 hours ago, Cobraclutch said:

Go into smoke, 

 

Hold fire.

 

Radar 

 

Profit

 

The point is that this is a nerf to the Des Moines and USN cruiser line in general more than any other Cruiser line.

The Minotaur, for example, has more than twice the leeway in smoke firing range than the Des Moines when using radar.  

The Minotaur has a 4.5km gap between its smoke detection and the max range of its radar.  

The Des Moines? 1.82 km.

That's not a small difference; that's a chasm. 

The American cruisers, which were already the worst radar ships behind the Russians and the British, are now even further behind.  Even worse, one of the few US cruisers worth a damn, the Des Moines - which was supposed to be the prize at the end of a bad line from the Phoenix and Omaha to the New Orleans and Baltimore - got more than a few of its teeth pulled.

 

6 hours ago, Sovereigndawg said:

The new smoke mechanics make it so BB's can now advance and retaliate against the ships that used to be invisible in smoke.

 

I would call this a load of malarkey but....

 

6 hours ago, Sovereigndawg said:

It should help to alleviate camping, but that remains to be seen, I'm not holding my breath.

 

...in that very next sentence, you contradict yourself and admit this is a load of malarkey, so I don't have to.

Any player with a modicum of skill in a BB never asked for or needed this patch to eviscerate a smoke-squatter, (unless firing at DDs, and this patch doesn't target DD smoke-firing).  It's easy to devastate or otherwise silence someone sitting in smoke: you lock alternate-target, then swivel turrets at the tracers leaving the smoke, then fire - and moving in smoke is obviated by a big, slow BB or the continuous cadence of salvos being fired by cruisers.  Players who do not have this skill or realization will not suddenly get smarter.   They will - as always - either yolo or camp, heedless of the map-situation.

To which I say again - this patch was not meant to stop camping (if anything, it will make it more prevalent).  This patch was meant to close the gap between the game's overall skill-floor and the skill-ceiling.  

Basically, to "dumb it down".

 

6 hours ago, Skpstr said:

 

Lol you mean get ready for all the salt from those who don't pay attention to patches. They'll be crying "h4x!" when their stationary BB hiding in smoke 10km out gets dumped on as soon as they fire.

 

I plan on taking full advantage of the transition....

 

At the tiers you're playing (T5-T6), it is highly unlikely that many, if any, random Battleship players have the presence of mind to stay in smoke as a DD smokes him.  I've tried it in my Nicholas, and 9/10, they continue to sail obliviously out of the smoke.  Needless to say, they also don't work with me when I ask them to cut engines or turn a direction so we can intercept each other.

That would require "awareness", "skill", and "teamwork".

Which is not what this patch promotes.

With this patch, I would be very surprised if even high-tiered, unicum cruisers and battleships are willing to work with me as I promise to smoke them near the objectives - which is debilitating to my play style because I almost use my smoke exclusively for teammates, and rely on them to do most of the damage against enemy DDs.

Again, this is not a nerf against the USN line, but it impacts the USN line far more than any other line, including British cruisers.

 

6 hours ago, Captain_Chaos_NA said:

I don't think it changes that much for radar ships, maybe makes them a little less useful.

What I do see is making UK radar CL more compelling when in a division with a DD.  The change indirectly gives it an edge that wasn't there before.


If it seems like I am mocking you for a lack of self-awareness, there's really no helping it.

But Brit cruisers were already great radar ships, arguably better DD hunters than Commie cruisers, and certainly better than Yank cruisers.  The only reason why British Cruiser drivers don't use British radar has more to do with flaws in the player-base rather than any presumed flaws in the ships:  

The British cruiser mains are the least skilled in drivers in their class, along with the IJN and VMF Destroyer player-base, the KM and RN Battleship player-base, and the USN Carrier player-base.  Whether its the play-style, or the fanboy culture, or whatever, Brit cruisers are populated by these players simply because the line is tailor-made for their gameplay: extremely forgiving of mistakes, easy to play, rewards minimal competency, requires comparatively less map and situational-awareness, lower skill-floor, etc.

The Belfast is the epitome of the pampered nature of British cruiser drivers.  Many, more skilled players, are self-aware enough to be embarrassed being seen driving a Winfast.

So it is no surprise that British cruiser players, almost to a man, have never realized their ships were the best at deleting DDs - certainly better than the American cruisers - which would have resulted in greater impact in battles and a higher winning percentage if only used properly.  

If only :Smile_sceptic:.

This lack of realization for nearly a year-running is due to incompetence; there is no way to sugar-coat it .

In my opinion, this incompetence was borne of the simple fact that most British cruiser players never had to learn what other cruiser players have been forced to learn all along: how to play the game without an OP ship and training wheels.  When you consider the opportunity afforded by the surprise factor, owing to DD players who think all RN cruiser players are too stupid and unskilled to utiilize radars effectively or mount them (because they're right), it is truly astounding how so many people in this player-base could be this oblivious; what could you call this lack of self-awareness -these incessant complaints about radar ships being too strong  even as they were the most dangerous radar ships against DDs - if not "incompetence".  

Conversely, if USN cruiser players don't learn the finer points of skilled play or map-awareness, they abandon the line out of frustration...

...and probably move into other cruiser lines - among them, British.

Conclusion?

Player-bases in games are like most things in human society: self-organization, self-selection.

 

5 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

The smoke change hurts a Radar CA like DM more than the Radar CLs like Belfast.  DMs in a Division frequently pull up with smoke dropped by a Div DD, pop radar, and go to town.  This smoke change makes it risky to fire.  IMO this change was squarely aimed at these kinds of CAs.  The CLs got off the hook, honestly.

 


Yes.

It's worse for the USN cruiser line, because the Des Moines "CA" designation doesn't include the "Armor" attribute game-wise.  

The Des Moines still plays like a light cruiser.  It just doesn't get any of the benefits, including the Minotaur's ability to smoke-fire at DDs for 2-3 times longer than the DM.  As for firing while being exposed?  The DM has no troll armor like the Zao, no turtle-back armor like the Hindenberg, and don't talk to me about the Moskva; that thing is a mis-represented Battleship with a long-ranged radar and rail-guns.

Edited by Jerych
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6 hours ago, AraAragami said:

Battleships don't camp because of smoke.

 

Battleships don't camp because of torpedoes.

 

Battleships camp because of battleships.

Not my Battleship. I advance and sometimes die early. I push because it's boring in the back.

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2 hours ago, Jerych said:

I would call this a load of malarkey but....

But.... It's true. Say I am 8 KM from smoke or just out of the sight distance of a CA when firing. If I head toward the smoke I can shoot them. If I head away they can shoot me and I still can't see them.

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9 hours ago, Cobraclutch said:

Go into smoke, 

 

Hold fire.

 

Radar 

 

Profit

This.  Hold your fire, remain unspotted.

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Yes it is a nerf to radar cruisers.....but it is also probably a needed nerf.  

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11 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

The smoke change hurts a Radar CA like DM more than the Radar CLs like Belfast.  DMs in a Division frequently pull up with smoke dropped by a Div DD, pop radar, and go to town.  This smoke change makes it risky to fire.  IMO this change was squarely aimed at these kinds of CAs.  The CLs got off the hook, honestly.

Honestly, I LIKE this change in my Belfast.  I picked up a couple of DD kills tonight that I wouldn't have gotten otherwise.  As soon as I get lit in smoke, I popped radar and mashed the throttle, the DD's who spotted me didn't live long.  A couple of them may have been able to launch torps that I wasn't expecting, had I not been detected and knew that I needed to hit the radar.  I immediately knew where the DD was and where potential torps could be coming from.  As far as I am concerned my Belfast is stronger than ever.

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