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Lessons from Warplanes

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Last week WG launched a new version of Warplanes. Won't go into that, but here are a couple things I noticed playing that could improve Warships

 

1: +1/-1 MM is awesome. Mea Culpa. I never was a a proponent of this, but it makes for such an improvement in the fun factor. Never am I in a match where I feel useless. Never am I in an encounter I don't have a chance. WG you need to do this

 

2: The way WP handles experience and rewards is tailored to the class, and it is super awesome. Fighters are rewarded better for shooting up aircraft. Multi role fighters are rewarded for shooting aircraft and blowing up ground targets. Ground attack, blow some stuff up. I could see this in ships - DDs, scouting. Cruisers, damage, BB, tanking damage. Or whatever. Reward ships for fulfilling their roles

 

3: Development communication. They have announced in a general manner what the next 3 patches will bring. It's nice to have a roadmap, does not change game play but is a good quality of life improvement (Khutozov, Belfast, Perth, looking at you)

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I agree with OP about the 3 options. Notser said something similar in his review of the game. I imagine that the game dev teams are entirely separate, despite being part of the same company. Odds are they were all hands on deck for the Warplanes revamp. Not that WoW has the B team, but it's pretty clear that WG heard the complaints from the WoW community and applied the fix during the Warplanes roll out. 

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15 minutes ago, Destroyer_Suzukaze said:

Last week WG launched a new version of Warplanes. Won't go into that, but here are a couple things I noticed playing that could improve Warships

 

1: +1/-1 MM is awesome. Mea Culpa. I never was a a proponent of this, but it makes for such an improvement in the fun factor. Never am I in a match where I feel useless. Never am I in an encounter I don't have a chance. WG you need to do this

 

2: The way WP handles experience and rewards is tailored to the class, and it is super awesome. Fighters are rewarded better for shooting up aircraft. Multi role fighters are rewarded for shooting aircraft and blowing up ground targets. Ground attack, blow some stuff up. I could see this in ships - DDs, scouting. Cruisers, damage, BB, tanking damage. Or whatever. Reward ships for fulfilling their roles

 

3: Development communication. They have announced in a general manner what the next 3 patches will bring. It's nice to have a roadmap, does not change game play but is a good quality of life improvement (Khutozov, Belfast, Perth, looking at you)

1.  If you're in a battle where you feel useless, that's YOUR fault, not the game's.  It's not the game's fault that your feeeeeeeeeeeelings are hurt.  Maybe if you had a more positive attitude, you might actually not be so useless.

 

2. I saw Flamu's very recent video commenting on this, and it's a total apples to oranges comparison.  Ground attack fighters were DESIGNED to attack ground targets and would like be poor dog fighters.  Fighters would probably be substandard at attacking ground targets.  And so on.  BB's tanking damage has been and always be some gamer B S nonsense.  This is some ridiculous fiction that some children (whether by bio age or mental age) have tried to create that's utter nonsense.  It never has been nor ever will be the job of battleships to "tank damage"!!!!!  The job of a battleship is so do the maximum amount of damage possible and sink as many enemy ships as possible, all the while using their armor to continue to do their job as absolutely long as possible!!!  Trying to force BBs to brawl because of some moronic fictional belief that they're supposed to "tank damage" is complete nonsense and should be called out at each and every opportunity!!!

 

 

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I will need to second what the kuudere heavy cruiser just said.

 

1. I like the match-making for Tier VI and Tier VIII matches. I am perfectly happy taking the Atago or ARP-Takao out for a spin against a Zao. Heck I have had some fun matches in the Graf Spee versus an Alabama. If you look below you will see my lovely stats, which should clearly indicate I play WoWS for the fun of it.

2. I have never really analyzed the results of matches from WoWS to see if I get points for spotting more in a DD than say a CA; I might try that in a Co-Op setting just to see what will happen. I like how WoWP has the task points for different airplane type, but think that would be too unwieldy for WoWS.

3. I will skip this one, as I didn't read up on the next few releases in WoWP; I might read it later when I go to complete a Daily Challenge, or try to complete it..., in a day.

 

I also play WoWP and I think the new 2.0 update for WoWP is a huge improvement over the previous version. 

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I'd rather be up-tiered by three than to have to wait for five minutes for a match to start. Also, remember that if you are low tier in a match then so is someone on the other team because the MM does a pretty good job of evening out the tiers, unless there is a failed division involved.

 

I do like your second proposal though. For instance, DDs should receive much more experience than they do for acts like capping and spotting that don't per se cause damage but do help the team. Maybe a BB can get more XP when sinking a DD as this is somewhat difficult to do when your guns reload in 30 seconds and by that time the DD has been able to scamper all over the map.

 

Communication is always good. It would be nice if WG could implement all-team voice chat and not just intra-division voice chat.

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30 minutes ago, Destroyer_Suzukaze said:

Last week WG launched a new version of Warplanes. Won't go into that, but here are a couple things I noticed playing that could improve Warships

 

1: +1/-1 MM is awesome. Mea Culpa. I never was a a proponent of this, but it makes for such an improvement in the fun factor. Never am I in a match where I feel useless. Never am I in an encounter I don't have a chance. WG you need to do this

 

2: The way WP handles experience and rewards is tailored to the class, and it is super awesome. Fighters are rewarded better for shooting up aircraft. Multi role fighters are rewarded for shooting aircraft and blowing up ground targets. Ground attack, blow some stuff up. I could see this in ships - DDs, scouting. Cruisers, damage, BB, tanking damage. Or whatever. Reward ships for fulfilling their roles

 

3: Development communication. They have announced in a general manner what the next 3 patches will bring. It's nice to have a roadmap, does not change game play but is a good quality of life improvement (Khutozov, Belfast, Perth, looking at you)

 

23 minutes ago, Fog_Heavy_Cruiser_Takao said:

1. Not needed in ships

2. They already do this to a degree

3. Every year they give us a good look at what's to come

1) This, with a few exceptions all ships are able to do fine in three tier matches and preferred MM would handle those few that need a hand.

2) GhostPrime has done a good job trying to keep us informed over there but there is only so much he can do.

3) Personally I feel that we are better kept informed about what is happening or proposed. Unlike in WoWP the devs here will hold a patch back when the PT shows issues.

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33 minutes ago, Fog_Heavy_Cruiser_Takao said:

1. Not needed in ships

2. They already do this to a degree

3. Every year they give us a good look at what's to come

1.  Very much needed in ships. And WoWP is doing it with far fewer players playing and more in each match.   

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1 hour ago, Destroyer_Suzukaze said:

Last week WG launched a new version of Warplanes. Won't go into that, but here are a couple things I noticed playing that could improve Warships

 

1: +1/-1 MM is awesome. Mea Culpa. I never was a a proponent of this, but it makes for such an improvement in the fun factor. Never am I in a match where I feel useless. Never am I in an encounter I don't have a chance. WG you need to do this

 

2: The way WP handles experience and rewards is tailored to the class, and it is super awesome. Fighters are rewarded better for shooting up aircraft. Multi role fighters are rewarded for shooting aircraft and blowing up ground targets. Ground attack, blow some stuff up. I could see this in ships - DDs, scouting. Cruisers, damage, BB, tanking damage. Or whatever. Reward ships for fulfilling their roles

 

3: Development communication. They have announced in a general manner what the next 3 patches will bring. It's nice to have a roadmap, does not change game play but is a good quality of life improvement (Khutozov, Belfast, Perth, looking at you)

I agree with everything you said

 

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37 minutes ago, comtedumas said:

1.  Very much needed in ships. And WoWP is doing it with far fewer players playing and more in each match.   

However, they also fill in matches with bots all the time, if there's not enough.  Only happens in Co-Op here.

I'm sure if WoWS did that, you could have your 2-tier total per match here...(i.e. 6/7, 8/9, 7/8, etc)  

 

(To be clear, I'd rather play  T5-7 games than play a T5/6 game, and backfill with bots here.)

 

Having said that, in WoWP 1.9, it wasn't uncommon to find a match with one other human in the game, but now it's pretty common to find 8 or so humans *per side*.  Been some changes in 2.0.  We'll see if it stays or not.

 

Edited by mavfin87
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Not to mention in theory a tier 1 can kill any tier 10, unlike tanks where the difference between two tiers is massive or in planes when each successive 2 tiers jumps massively in speed or firepower

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As I have pointed out many times in two tier match threads is my fear of the unintended consequences that will come from not having a complete balance pass as happened with WoWP with certain planes being the go to while others are mostly useless. 2.0 because of so much combat at low altitude may impact that but only time will tell if that will be enough to make the low alt turn & burn planes viable again. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Destroyer_Suzukaze said:

Last week WG launched a new version of Warplanes. Won't go into that, but here are a couple things I noticed playing that could improve Warships

 

1: +1/-1 MM is awesome. Mea Culpa. I never was a a proponent of this, but it makes for such an improvement in the fun factor. Never am I in a match where I feel useless. Never am I in an encounter I don't have a chance. WG you need to do this

 

2: The way WP handles experience and rewards is tailored to the class, and it is super awesome. Fighters are rewarded better for shooting up aircraft. Multi role fighters are rewarded for shooting aircraft and blowing up ground targets. Ground attack, blow some stuff up. I could see this in ships - DDs, scouting. Cruisers, damage, BB, tanking damage. Or whatever. Reward ships for fulfilling their roles

 

3: Development communication. They have announced in a general manner what the next 3 patches will bring. It's nice to have a roadmap, does not change game play but is a good quality of life improvement (Khutozov, Belfast, Perth, looking at you)

 

0. It's not "A new version". It's a bold face lie at worst, at best, an exaggeration. All it is is 1.9 with a new game mode, near impossible to get bombers, GT's as/more frustrating than when they botched them in the 1.5 change and a crappier UI. 

 

1. Am I all for +/-1 MM, yes, at least as a stop gap till Wargaming addresses certain issues between ships separated by two tiers. DD's are for the most part fine, issue is more Radar needs to be fixed, Same with BB's other than a couple that need tweaks to better handle being up tiered. But it seems several cruisers up tier poorly and CV's is a massive issue, especially at mid tier.

 

That said, the only reason Warplanes has +/-1? is the fact that 50% or more of the planes in a match are advanced bots, that may well have ended up laying the ground work for bot's here. Difference is - they had to impliment them on live server after driving their player base away with every patch from 1.5 on.

 

2. We already have that to a degree - just a matter of it still needs some refining.

 

3.giphy.gif

 

Yeah, that might last oh.... 2-3 months IF they actually seem to be communicating. They promised more after the debacle of shoving 1.5 down our throats it lasted maybe 2 months. We get not only far better communication here, but we don't have to pull answers out of people, and they actually EXPLAIN changes when asked. We rioted when they removed rockets from the P-51, underwing gondola's from 109's, and bombs from the A6M, all things they historically had. The only answer we got was "Balance" and none of them would explain what was the issue because not a single player said they were unbalanced, only a small minority crying they felt players weren't playing planes right because they might use them to hit a GT before dog fighting, or use different tactics. That was 2 years ago. And they still didn't bring them back but well, most of us that wanted them back IE the majority of the player base left so stopped bugging them likely. Not to mention "Bombers are too big and terrible at maneuvering"- when at the time some fighters and GA were bricks and huge by comparison IL-2's were like freaking light fighters in mobility, and the Ju-88 being given a 7.5 cm gun instead of 8.8 "we have no targets that require that kind of firepower" which if that's the case WHY DO WE HAVE 1000 POUND BOMBS. Ships gives a general start of the year "what we look to do" because sometimes, things break down. Like the CV fix apparently. The last time they tried accurate was Saipan, that ended up delayed. Trying to meet an expected deadline is why GZ launched as it did, why Warplanes rammed 1.5 down our throats, and look how well those turned out - full blown rage and riots. Careful what you wish for.

 

At this point the only two "positive takeaways" that are WoWp only that this game should take -

Ship Birthdays - till 2.0 If you had a plane x months, then x years, also depending on tier, you got various rewards that could be a chunk of credits or multiple matches of XP/Credit multipliers, some free xp, even at some of the highest rewards some gold or a day of premium. A little something to dust off that tier 4 you used to love flying for a few matches or that tier 6 premium gathering dust after getting to tier 8. Implement it here that maybe it leans more a chunk of credits, free xp, commander xp, some dubloons or day of premium (note like Warplanes, it should be a few days to complete a match/matches in the ship so you can line up the premium hopefully to a weekend or day you can use it more), or maybe some of the unique signals (Red Dragon, Kraken, etc). 

 

Stuka tiering - they put the thing at tier 5, against 109E's and Wildcats and all. And while tiering is slightly different here - it should be clear the Stuka IS NOT TIER 8 MATERIAL.

 

Pretty much everything else about that game, that isn't shared with Tank's - is a lesson in what NOT to do.

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+/-1 MM for WoWs......  nope. 

WoWp have +/-1MM because 2/3 player in battel are BOT, not real player. 

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9 hours ago, mavfin87 said:

However, they also fill in matches with bots all the time, if there's not enough.  Only happens in Co-Op here.

I'm sure if WoWS did that, you could have your 2-tier total per match here...(i.e. 6/7, 8/9, 7/8, etc)  

 

(To be clear, I'd rather play  T5-7 games than play a T5/6 game, and backfill with bots here.)

 

Having said that, in WoWP 1.9, it wasn't uncommon to find a match with one other human in the game, but now it's pretty common to find 8 or so humans *per side*.  Been some changes in 2.0.  We'll see if it stays or not.

 

And the bots aren’t bad.  They can turn the ai level of the bots up a bunch, I have no doubt about that, when I beta tested Red Baron 3D in the 1990’s they could adjust their bot pilots to a level they were untouchable, and did so in one test patch.  You can bet WG can do so here if they wanted too.  

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3 hours ago, Singleshot said:

+/-1 MM for WoWs......  nope. 

WoWp have +/-1MM because 2/3 player in battel are BOT, not real player. 

And those bots are actually able to put up a fight unlike the bots in this game, says alot doesn't it?

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-I'm opposed to -1/+1 on the simple fact it massively limits the variety of ships one would face in a match.

 

-Rewards being better tailored per class would be good. CVs should get more for destroying planes and spotting. 

 

 

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1. What needs to be fixed in the MM isn't so much +1/-1 but the common problem of games where you can be the sole bottom tier with half (or more!) of each team being +2 top tier. Now I definitely don't want to go the WoT 'formula' route (which is its own sort of broken), but honestly I'd rather wait a few seconds as a T5/6/8 and be put into a more balanced match.

 

2. I like missions / crates the way they are to a large extent (aside from the co-op missions being once per account rather than resetting with each rotation).

 

3. The WoWS devs have gotten a lot better wrt communication and I like the direction they are improving in.

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11 hours ago, Crucis said:

1.  If you're in a battle where you feel useless, that's YOUR fault, not the game's.  It's not the game's fault that your feeeeeeeeeeeelings are hurt.  Maybe if you had a more positive attitude, you might actually not be so useless.

 

2. I saw Flamu's very recent video commenting on this, and it's a total apples to oranges comparison.  Ground attack fighters were DESIGNED to attack ground targets and would like be poor dog fighters.  Fighters would probably be substandard at attacking ground targets.  And so on.  BB's tanking damage has been and always be some gamer B S nonsense.  This is some ridiculous fiction that some children (whether by bio age or mental age) have tried to create that's utter nonsense.  It never has been nor ever will be the job of battleships to "tank damage"!!!!!  The job of a battleship is so do the maximum amount of damage possible and sink as many enemy ships as possible, all the while using their armor to continue to do their job as absolutely long as possible!!!  Trying to force BBs to brawl because of some moronic fictional belief that they're supposed to "tank damage" is complete nonsense and should be called out at each and every opportunity!!!

Do you actually play WoWS?

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11 minutes ago, _cthulhu_ said:

Do you actually play WoWS?

 

Do you? I mean sure, you can TRY and get enemies to shoot at you instead of squishier teammates, but if those teammates are more if a threat by virtue of being better players, or they're easy targets that promise a better return, or the enemies are too ignorant or unaware to realise that you're the biggest threat, then you're doing the BB job exactly as Crucis laid out.

 

If I'm driving a half-health CL, and an enemy 12km away shoots me instead of your BB 7km away, should I blame you for not "tanking" properly?

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17 minutes ago, Skpstr said:

Do you? I mean sure, you can TRY and get enemies to shoot at you instead of squishier teammates, but if those teammates are more if a threat by virtue of being better players, or they're easy targets that promise a better return, or the enemies are too ignorant or unaware to realise that you're the biggest threat, then you're doing the BB job exactly as Crucis laid out.

If I'm driving a half-health CL, and an enemy 12km away shoots me instead of your BB 7km away, should I blame you for not "tanking" properly?

Target choice is out of your control, if you are exposed and they choose to shoot you over a BB, there is nothing to be said.

That doesn't change the fact that BBs are the heavies of the game and are supposed to use 5 things to win - Guns, Armour, HP, Positioning and Healing, yes they need support, but that doesn't change their job. Saying that they are supposed to sink enemy ships is ridiculous, that is the job of all ships.

To not tank damage means you are neglecting tools needed to win a battle behind. Get into  a position, watch battle development, find a weakness and use your armour, guns, health and healing to exploit a weakness after all, you can't use your health and healing without getting shot and if you have Adrenaline Rush as a skill, it makes you stronger to tank damage...

It is this guys reasoning that BBs hide and red line snipe.

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World of Warplanes added actual targets for strategic bombing in a complete redo of a game that has never had strategic bombers.

 

Meanwhile WarThunder has had B-17s since CBT and is still having them bomb a small group of tents going on 5 years now.

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12 hours ago, Fog_Heavy_Cruiser_Takao said:

1. Not needed in ships

2. They already do this to a degree

3. Every year they give us a good look at what's to come

Says the guy with every tier ten (assumption) and just wants to play tier 10 huh?, i'm a tier 8 and 90% of my battles are against tier 10's. +/-1 would be better for everyone but the wannabe sealclubbers

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39 minutes ago, _cthulhu_ said:

Target choice is out of your control, if you are exposed and they choose to shoot you over a BB, there is nothing to be said.

That doesn't change the fact that BBs are the heavies of the game and are supposed to use 5 things to win - Guns, Armour, HP, Positioning and Healing, yes they need support, but that doesn't change their job. Saying that they are supposed to sink enemy ships is ridiculous, that is the job of all ships.

To not tank damage means you are neglecting tools needed to win a battle behind. Get into  a position, watch battle development, find a weakness and use your armour, guns, health and healing to exploit a weakness after all, you can't use your health and healing without getting shot and if you have Adrenaline Rush as a skill, it makes you stronger to tank damage...

It is this guys reasoning that BBs hide and red line snipe.

 

Ok, I think we're not really disagreeing here. And I believe you have Crucis wrong.

 

Saying it's their job to sink enemy ships isn't really ridiculous, it bears mentioning because, by virtue of the tools they're given, it's their only job.

 

What Crucis is saying is that there's no need to wade in and brawl. (unless of course that's going to be where you're most effective)

 

Unless I'm in a KM BB, my most effective range is the closer middle ground at 10-12 km. I can score almost as many hits as I can in close, but because my judgment isn't the best, and I'm not comfortable brawling, I'll get more done because I can survive longer.

 

I'm definitely not a "sniper", heck, I don't even run the upgraded FCS on any T8+ BBs except Amagi.

 

 

Edited by Skpstr

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