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GreyFox78659

Tone why is it so hard to balance?

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Is just giving it an extra scout plane really that broken. She isn’t a CV hybrid she was a scout cruiser meaning she had more float planes but had less guns. Because of Japanese carrier doctrine they didn’t have scout planes and that is why Tone and Chikuma were built to do scouting for carriers group and battleships.

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Who would want a cruiser that has all its guns forward; and that might have as many as twelve scout planes, even if all they do is circle the ship; even two at a time?
 

Old posts make me think people wouldn't be satuisfied with that, and want to be able to control Tone's scouts ala-CVs.

 

Therein lies the rub; and the biggest problem.

 

Easy to deal with on the surface; less so in practice, due to apparent expectations.

Edited by Estimated_Prophet

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You would need to give Tone a CV interface for scout plane use. Prepping the planes for launch by pushing the right icon should bring up a CV interface and map which allows the user to set a scouting route for each scout, launch the scouts, and allow him to manage those scouts as snoopers loitering outside of useful AA range of what it is tracking to continue marking the target. Hitting the AP or HE load icon can bring you back to the normal surface combat interface if the CA need to shoot at something for self defence or attack. Looking at the existing interfaces this is not simple, but appears do-able. An 8-gun heavy cruiser? We already have several of those in the game. All the guns forward? We have one already in Dunkerque, and more are coming. With or without torpedoes? Without, IMHO, because having the ability to flood the air with scout planes that can loiter for 10 minutes and be replaced is a huge gunnery spotting tool advantage for the entire team. But WG knows.....not anytime soon, I think...

Edited by GrandAdmiral_2016
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32 minutes ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

Who would want a cruiser that has all its guns forward; and that might have as many as twelve scout planes, even if all they do is circle the ship; even two at a time?
 

 

I would it was for all purposes a heavy cruiser that carrier extra scout planes nothing more. The Mogami and Ise conversion were true CV BB hybrid carriers. Tone had a scouting role and not anything else.

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23 minutes ago, GrandAdmiral_2016 said:

You would need to give Tone a CV interface for scout plane use. Prepping the planes for launch by pushing the right icon should bring up a CV interface and map which allows the user to set a scouting route for each scout, launch the scouts, and allow him to manage those scouts as snoopers loitering outside of useful AA range of what it is tracking to continue marking the target. Hitting the AP or HE load icon can bring you back to the normal surface combat interface if the CA need to shoot at something for self defence or attack. Looking at the existing interfaces this is not simple, but appears do-able. An 8-gun heavy cruiser? We already have several of those in the game. All the guns forward? We have one already in Dunkerque, and more are coming. With or without torpedoes? Without, IMHO, because having the ability to flood the air with scout planes that can loiter for 10 minutes and be replaced is a huge gunnery spotting tool advantage for the entire team. But WG knows.....not anytime soon, I think...

 

I actually like this idea; nice and simple... Likely to be a T8 cruiser at least though; with an ability like that?

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1 hour ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

 

I actually like this idea; nice and simple... Likely to be a T8 cruiser at least though; with an ability like that?

You would have to limit the number of scouts up to two at a time, I would think. That way in Domination you can scout two caps but not all three at once. In Standard battles it would be even for both sides. Anything else, it would be even as well. Tone should be a T8, IMHO

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1 hour ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

Who would want a cruiser that has all its guns forward; and that might have as many as twelve scout planes, even if all they do is circle the ship; even two at a time?
 

Old posts make me think people wouldn't be satuisfied with that, and want to be able to control Tone's scouts ala-CVs.

 

Therein lies the rub; and the biggest problem.

 

Easy to deal with on the surface; less so in practice, due to apparent expectations.

I would love that.  I dont want controllable planes, not just for me but for the idiots who arent smart enough to fight it as a gunship because they think its a carrier.

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1 hour ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

 

I actually like this idea; nice and simple... Likely to be a T8 cruiser at least though; with an ability like that?

The best way to do it would be to allow use the planes in auto drop mode.  ctrl click a target, press the launch button and the planes auto-attack the target.

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6 minutes ago, crzyhawk said:

I would love that.  I dont want controllable planes, not just for me but for the idiots who arent smart enough to fight it as a gunship because they think its a carrier.

 

Not exactly a Fara as far a CV driving goes; but good enough that never even crossed my mind... Yeah; Ive seen a few drivers where I'm all 'WHAT THE FLYING FLIP ARE YOU THINKING!?!'

 

5 minutes ago, crzyhawk said:

The best way to do it would be to allow use the planes in auto drop mode.  ctrl click a target, press the launch button and the planes auto-attack the target.

 

Do you mean 'circle a target?' Likely to be major screaming fits if Tone's scouts can do anything but scout...

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No.  I mean Dbs, that attack the target and then return.  I definitely do not mean hover over a target and keep it perma spotted.  Another consideration would be to give it a 3 plane float-fighter squad with no strafe, again just ctrl-click to attack enemy planes.  I'd set it up so you can pick modules like a carrier.  You either get fighters that circle you or you get Dbers that can attack.  Put them on a consumable like radar or smoke uses, so you can't spam them over and over, you have to pick your times.

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How about three normal float plane fighters and nothing else. That even sounds correct for the real life ship that rarely carried more than three float planes 

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As ai have said before the flight deck is not a CV flight deck, in WWII it was a floatplane deck for the Cruiser, so all Wargaming needs to do is release it as a Cruiser that carries Spotter planes and Catapult fighters.

 

Instead from what ai heard they went crazy and tried to make it a CV / Cruiser hybrid. :Smile_facepalm:

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1 minute ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

As ai have said before the flight deck is not a CV flight deck, in WWII it was a floatplane deck for the Cruiser, so all Wargaming needs to do is release it as a Cruiser that carries Spotter planes and Catapult fighters.

 

Instead from what ai heard they went crazy and tried to make it a CV / Cruiser hybrid. :Smile_facepalm:

Totally agree

A ca/cv hybrid would Mogami post midway damage conversion.

Edited by GreyFox78659

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Btw much like the mogami they were going to get triple 155mm turrets but Japan left the London naval treaty while she was being built. Also why they were named for rivers and not mountains. In fact tone would make a cool tier seven cruiser with optional gun loadouts like mogami.

Edited by GreyFox78659

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Having a near constant spotter plane and/or fighter would be a tough trade-off for a cruiser that pretty much loses its ability to kite away from the enemy.  I do that a lot with only my rear turrets in play. It would also be an 8 gun when its IJN contemporaries are 10-gun (or 15). It would be an interesting premium but a meh-bote at best without major tweaks and gimmicks.

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This ship was in battlestations pacific and it didn’t have to much of an issue engaging targets aft in fact bow on targets required angling to get all turrets on target. It played pretty much like the other IJN cruisers only it had better AA.

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Not sure what the resistance is from some to giving the Tone something in addition to spotting planes. Yes, IRL it only carried spotters, but that also applies to every other catapult equipped ship in the game, many of which can carry fighters. If WG gives Kuma a fighter, they better give the Tone a few.

18 hours ago, GreyFox78659 said:

This ship was in battlestations pacific and it didn’t have to much of an issue engaging targets aft in fact bow on targets required angling to get all turrets on target.

How much side it would have to show? Seems I often have to kite away in cruisers, wiggling as much as possible to escape a superior pursuing force. This generally only lets me use my rear guns. Tone would have to angle to fire back at all, limiting the amount of dodging you can do, at least increasing the predictability of that dodging and greatly reducing the ROF.

 

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4 hours ago, Sabot_100 said:

Not sure what the resistance is from some to giving the Tone something in addition to spotting planes. Yes, IRL it only carried spotters, but that also applies to every other catapult equipped ship in the game, many of which can carry fighters. If WG gives Kuma a fighter, they better give the Tone a few.

How much side it would have to show? Seems I often have to kite away in cruisers, wiggling as much as possible to escape a superior pursuing force. This generally only lets me use my rear guns. Tone would have to angle to fire back at all, limiting the amount of dodging you can do, at least increasing the predictability of that dodging and greatly reducing the ROF.

 

It played pretty much like Nelson plays in this game. It honestly helps you dodge torpedoes as you end up zig zagging.

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On 10/17/2017 at 7:30 PM, Estimated_Prophet said:

Who would want a cruiser that has all its guns forward; and that might have as many as twelve scout planes, even if all they do is circle the ship; even two at a time?
 

Old posts make me think people wouldn't be satuisfied with that, and want to be able to control Tone's scouts ala-CVs.

 

Therein lies the rub; and the biggest problem.

 

Easy to deal with on the surface; less so in practice, due to apparent expectations.

From what I have seen on Tone CA data yes it had 5-6 scout planes on its rear deck ( which most ship in game have several planes with all the Consumables), it does lack 1 turret compared to Myoko, still gets 4 triple torp launchers, Tone gets better armor than even Mogami, and Tone gets better AA protection compared to the rest of the IJN Cruisers.

The better armor and good AA could easily be the main attraction to having Tone despite the odd turret arrangement and the loss of a turret.

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Hey

Build the Tone, I will buy one.  I think the scout plane or even fighters could be useful to the team by providing 2-4 aircraft in the air at once, for spotting torps or enemy DD's could be very playable; all the guns up front would be no different than several we have already.  It offers a unique playstyle which what premiums should be about.

 

Pete

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On 1/30/2018 at 10:55 PM, sasquatch_research said:

Build the Tone, I will buy one.  I think the scout plane or even fighters could be useful to the team by providing 2-4 aircraft in the air at once, for spotting torps or enemy DD's could be very playable; all the guns up front would be no different than several we have already.  It offers a unique playstyle which what premiums should be about.

Seems like it should get scout planes AND fighters, and possibly launch 2 planes each at a time (3 with the captains skill). I disagree that Tone's "all the guns up front" is the same as other ships. Ships like Dunkerque have no rear guns but can bring ALL of their guns to bear to the front, allowing excellent bow tanking. Tone gives up all rear guns but still has to show a good bit of side to bring all 8 guns to bear or any guns shooting aft. Other IJN CAs Tier 7+ can only bring 4 guns to bear forward but can also get 4 guns firing aft. Definitely a disadvantage.

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2 hours ago, Sabot_100 said:

Seems like it should get scout planes AND fighters, and possibly launch 2 planes each at a time (3 with the captains skill). I disagree that Tone's "all the guns up front" is the same as other ships. Ships like Dunkerque have no rear guns but can bring ALL of their guns to bear to the front, allowing excellent bow tanking. Tone gives up all rear guns but still has to show a good bit of side to bring all 8 guns to bear or any guns shooting aft. Other IJN CAs Tier 7+ can only bring 4 guns to bear forward but can also get 4 guns firing aft. Definitely a disadvantage.

Hey

Disadvantage, yes but that is what should make premiums exciting, they should be different, maybe even challenging to play.  With the ability to put maybe up to 4 aircraft in the air at once, it would be an interesting counter to DD stealth and torps, or IF fighters were involved, could be an interesting counter to CV's.  With guns up front; it's just something different and all ships should have strengths and weaknesses.  Just like how the Myoko has to turn through a broadside to launch torps, bummer yes, but still workable and a very decent ship.  Same could be with Tone.

 

Pete

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On 10/17/2017 at 8:30 PM, Estimated_Prophet said:

Who would want a cruiser that has all its guns forward; and that might have as many as twelve scout planes, even if all they do is circle the ship; even two at a time?
 

Old posts make me think people wouldn't be satuisfied with that, and want to be able to control Tone's scouts ala-CVs.

 

Therein lies the rub; and the biggest problem.

 

Easy to deal with on the surface; less so in practice, due to apparent expectations.

I would.  Just give me a plain ol gun cruiser.  I will throw my money at the screen because I like the ship.

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21 hours ago, crzyhawk said:

I would.  Just give me a plain ol gun cruiser.  I will throw my money at the screen because I like the ship.

They would get a certain volume of sales from collectors but if it gets a "Garbage" rating from LWM, that will be the extent of the sales. On the other hand, Huanghe got such a rating and is a top performing cruiser at T6 (soon to be the best AA cruiser at T6 when the Cleveland moves up).

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