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Musashi unveiled

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I think this is stupid primarily for two reasons:

1) The Missouri already bucked the whole "No premiums past T8" thing so the rational of shoehorning in an 18" gunned ship at T9 is lose, at best. Just put it at T10 like it belongs without forcing nerfs that will...

2) Because it is a *premium* (free XP or not, it's a premium ship), people have, to a degree, heightened expectations, and the dangers of a *genuine* OP ship, given it's guns and HP, means that it really is impossible to balance; the community will complain if it's nerfed to competitive values, and *[edited]* without end if it's in any way comparable to the Yamato. There is no winning on this, in forcing it at T9. Put it at T10 and it can be a more or less pallet swap (extra Secondary damage, worse  AA tradeoff, and that's all that's really needed) with the Yamato and avoid the almost guaranteed [edited] fest surrounding this thing.

Oh and then, not for nothing, but what's the argument against putting a Tillman Type BB at T9 or T8 now? The only fathomable argument was no 18" guns bellow T10 and t he Tilman's other features preclude them from T10 (deck armor and speed), but they *do* fit at T8 or T9 and with this info, what's stopping it? Other than hating on the USN's Paper Ships.

Edited by _RC1138
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For comparison, if the Montana had a sister ship at T9 and the same treatment you would get something like:

- A Montana at T9

- Slightly lower sigma

- Slightly better rudder shift time

- Longer reload times

- Less secondaries

- Less AA

- Maybe less armor here & there, like on the front and rear citadel athwartship

But you would still have a ship at T9 with a T10 HP pool, hull layout, and gun effectiveness in penetration + volume. Yamato stands out by the fact that you move lolpen down 1 tier. Compare this to the Missouri, which is actually a T9 ship at T9, not a down tiered T10.

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14 minutes ago, _RC1138 said:

I think this is stupid primarily for two reasons:

1) The Missouri already bucked the whole "No premiums past T8" thing so the rational of shoehorning in an 18" gunned ship at T9 is lose, at best. Just put it at T10 like it belongs without forcing nerfs that will...

2) Because it is a *premium* (free XP or not, it's a premium ship), people have, to a degree, heightened expectations, and the dangers of a *genuine* OP ship, given it's guns and HP, means that it really is impossible to balance; the community will complain if it's nerfed to competitive values, and *[edited]* without end if it's in any way comparable to the Yamato. There is no winning on this, in forcing it at T9. Put it at T10 and it can be a more or less pallet swap (extra Secondary damage, worse  AA tradeoff, and that's all that's really needed) with the Yamato and avoid the almost guaranteed [edited] fest surrounding this thing.

Oh and then, not for nothing, but what's the argument against putting a Tillman Type BB at T9 or T8 now? The only fathomable argument was no 18" guns bellow T10 and t he Tilman's other features preclude them from T10 (deck armor and speed), but they *do* fit at T8 or T9 and with this info, what's stopping it? Other than hating on the USN's Paper Ships.

 

Pretty much, it should have been the first Tier X Premium ship with some differences to Yamato herself.  That way you have Musashi in her full power and not some held back status.

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Hey, maybe we can get that Super South Dakota with a 15" belt, and nine 457 mm guns at tier 9 now. They wouldnt even need to worry about overmatch problems (since 457 and 406 are functionally identical when it comes to that), or it having a tier 10 HP pool since it only weighs as much as Iowa.

 

What a great idea!

 

 

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Lack of AA is a big problem and good cause to avoid this ship. Yamato can barely protect itself from planes, Musashi in this config is going to be free fodder for literally any CV it faces. Its going to have a worse AA rating than a Nagato.

 

4 hours ago, Pope_Shizzle said:

97,000 hit points at tier 9?  20,000 more hit points than her closest competitor.  With the 460mm lolpen guns?  Yeah, this is garbage.  

 

 

FDG is 84300. That's 12.7k not 20. Not only can that number change but they can also nerf the torp belt and screw around with the repair and dam con consumables to compensate. A lot of people going chicken little in this thread. Personally I have to say if this is just a crappy Yamato at tier 9 (which is effectively tier 10 80% of the time) i'd rather have a Missouri. Missouri is a better Iowa so people actually want the former if not both. Why would anyone with a Yamato want this?

Edited by ksix
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11 minutes ago, ksix said:

Lack of AA is a big problem and good cause to avoid this ship. Yamato can barely protect itself from planes, Musashi in this config is going to be free fodder for literally any CV it faces. Its going to have a worse AA rating than a Nagato.

The AA is only a problem if there is a cv in the game and there just isn't a lot of cvs being played right now. I don't think the week AA is enough of a reason to avoid the ship. I think it's still to early to make a judgement call on the ship eaither way but I can understand if people are concerned at this point. 

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5 hours ago, Fog_Repair_Ship_Akashi said:

This should be interesting, my money is on her being a free xp ship any takers?

Agreed.

I stopped at the NC until I learned to play the Gneisenau.  Then I got the Missouri and bought back the NC.  I hesitate to buy the Iowa, though.  It would be difficult to grind through the hulls, etc. after having the Missouri.

Now I've started to play the Christmas Fuso and are kinda enjoying it.  Seems like for the IJN it's worth grinding all the way to the Yammy, rather than settling for the Musashi.

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29 minutes ago, starksrevenge said:

The AA is only a problem if there is a cv in the game and there just isn't a lot of cvs being played right now. I don't think the week AA is enough of a reason to avoid the ship. I think it's still to early to make a judgement call on the ship eaither way but I can understand if people are concerned at this point. 

Yes but there are CVs, the fact remains that its hard counter to this ship and it cant defend itself. Then you have future CV lines, premiums, CV events, and if they ever actually get around to addressing the class. No its not critical in the current meta but its still something I wouldn't want to be completely without.

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So is the mighty mushi going to get a little canablized like the Konig Albert{Kaiser Class BB} which has a 2.6 km lesser range then a Kaiser oh BUT it was a Kaiser Class.Where this is WG way of making people that have no intention of playing tier 10 never want to even play tier 7 now?

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Musashi being in her 1943 form is already a sufficient downgrade for T9; she really doesn't need the sigma nerf. She only had roughly:

  • 4× Triple 15.5cm secondaries
  • 6× Twin 12.7cm DP mounts
  • 12× Triple 25mm AA guns
  • 2× Twin 13.2 mm AA machine guns

The secondaries are barely on par with Amagi B; and Amagi has 16x 140mm AP casemate secondaries (vs Musashi's 12x 155mm) and 8x Twin 127mm DP mounts (vs Musashi's 6x Twin 127mm DP mounts). The AA is flat out somewhere between Nagato A and Amagi A. Assuming a reversion of her sigma back to 2.1 or at least 2.0, that makes Musashi a pure anti-surface BB at T9, the way Arizona is a pure anti-surface BB at T6 (with her practically nonexistent AA, but better accuracy than NM).

 

Personally however, Musashi is better served as a T10 FXP Premium, in either her 1943 form, 1944 form, or a fictional hybrid form (1944 refit + wing 155 turrets). Regardless of form, she would be inferior to the Yamato-class in AA. That just leaves either buffing her secondary ranges to rival or slightly exceed KM BBs, or giving her Radar, or giving her back some of her lost maneuverability, or giving her back the original Super Heal that Yamato had, or a combination of those.

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She absolutely needs the sigma nerf.  18.1 inch guns at t9 is ludicrous.

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I will admit I strongly dislike WG's obsession with making sure sister ships can't division together without it being a faildiv.

 

Konig Albert/Kaiser

Nagato/Mutsu

Yamato/Musashi

Edinburgh/Belfast

 

Amagi/Upcoming Ashitaka

 

What's the damn appeal to ensuring that ships of the same class can't sortie together?

Edited by AraAragami

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1 minute ago, YamatoA150 said:

Musashi being in her 1943 form is already a sufficient downgrade for T9; she really doesn't need the sigma nerf. She only had roughly:

  • 4× Triple 15.5cm secondaries
  • 6× Twin 12.7cm DP mounts
  • 12× Triple 25mm AA guns
  • 2× Twin 13.2 mm AA machine guns

The secondaries are barely on par with Amagi B; and Amagi has 16x 140mm AP casemate secondaries (vs Musashi's 12x 155mm) and 8x Twin 127mm DP mounts (vs Musashi's 6x Twin 127mm DP mounts). The AA is flat out somewhere between Nagato A and Amagi A. Assuming a reversion of her sigma back to 2.1 or at least 2.0, that makes Musashi a pure anti-surface BB at T9, the way Arizona is a pure anti-surface BB at T6 (with her practically nonexistent AA, but better accuracy than NM).

 

Personally however, Musashi is better served as a T10 FXP Premium, in either her 1943 form, 1944 form, or a fictional hybrid form (1944 refit + wing 155 turrets). Regardless of form, she would be inferior to the Yamato-class in AA. That just leaves either buffing her secondary ranges to rival or slightly exceed KM BBs, or giving her Radar, or giving her back some of her lost maneuverability, or giving her back the original Super Heal that Yamato had, or a combination of those.

 

You seem to be forgetting about the big 18.1" guns which are the reason it will still be a huge threat even with the sigma nerf. Also 1.8 sigma is pretty typical by US BB standards, I'm thinking you're a bit jaded by playing a lot of super-accurate IJN BBs, you should try slumming it more often.

 

I suppose the abysmal AA is the main nerf but it seems like only 1/3 matches have carriers to worry about anyway. I would like to see the non-German secondaries buffed across the board but radar, super heal, or even more maneuverability? Last I checked Yamato has less of a turn radius than Montana.

 

I pity Colorado players who end up against this thing. They're going to be taken down to citadel-city. Last thing Musashi needs are more buffs if it's to remain a T9. I'd prefer to see it as a T10 myself but it seems WG is really set against that.

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1 hour ago, ksix said:

Yes but there are CVs, the fact remains that its hard counter to this ship and it cant defend itself. Then you have future CV lines, premiums, CV events, and if they ever actually get around to addressing the class. No its not critical in the current meta but its still something I wouldn't want to be completely without.

Not like the Yammy stops strikes either.  Even in my 2/0/2 lexi loadout, i loved attacking Yammies.  No BB can defend itself from strikes vs same tier aircraft from what i seen. Sure, you can drop some planes(especially in US BBs) but planes will still get through, if you are by yourself.  Maybe vs lower tier planes, you can stop a strike.    going full AA build is normally not worth it anyways. Not enough CV players to make it viable.   Especially with the RN BBs running around destroying most of your AA in a few salvos.  

 

You should be near friendlies with DF or somewhere the CV can protect you with ease.  Bad AA really isn't a problem in the practical sense.   CVs are rare, and if you play right, not much of an issue assuming your teammates aren't potatoes.  Run off by yourself and you should pay the price imo. 

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26 minutes ago, YamatoA150 said:

Musashi being in her 1943 form is already a sufficient downgrade for T9; she really doesn't need the sigma nerf. She only had roughly:

  • 4× Triple 15.5cm secondaries
  • 6× Twin 12.7cm DP mounts
  • 12× Triple 25mm AA guns
  • 2× Twin 13.2 mm AA machine guns

The secondaries are barely on par with Amagi B; and Amagi has 16x 140mm AP casemate secondaries (vs Musashi's 12x 155mm) and 8x Twin 127mm DP mounts (vs Musashi's 6x Twin 127mm DP mounts). The AA is flat out somewhere between Nagato A and Amagi A. Assuming a reversion of her sigma back to 2.1 or at least 2.0, that makes Musashi a pure anti-surface BB at T9, the way Arizona is a pure anti-surface BB at T6 (with her practically nonexistent AA, but better accuracy than NM).

 

Personally however, Musashi is better served as a T10 FXP Premium, in either her 1943 form, 1944 form, or a fictional hybrid form (1944 refit + wing 155 turrets). Regardless of form, she would be inferior to the Yamato-class in AA. That just leaves either buffing her secondary ranges to rival or slightly exceed KM BBs, or giving her Radar, or giving her back some of her lost maneuverability, or giving her back the original Super Heal that Yamato had, or a combination of those.

1.8 sigma while not as good as Yamato isn't bad eaither and I hesitate to make it even as good as 2. Having bad secondaries dose not justify a 2.1or a 2.0 sigma in my opinion. However regardless of her sigma it's not her guns that would make her op I think it's her survivability. For example look at the lower tier BBs that have an overmatched advantage like QE, Warspite, and Mutsu. All of those BBs have great big guns that really hurt but the ship themselves are also softer in return. Musashi has a huge hit point pool and a strong belt at 410mm giving her what might be the best staying power at tire 9. That and having the ability to overmatch is what I'm a little concerned about but I also agree that she would make a much better tier 10 than 9. 

 

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1 hour ago, Lampshade_M1A2 said:

You seem to be forgetting about the big 18.1" guns which are the reason it will still be a huge threat even with the sigma nerf. Also 1.8 sigma is pretty typical by US BB standards, I'm thinking you're a bit jaded by playing a lot of super-accurate IJN BBs, you should try slumming it more often.

 

I suppose the abysmal AA is the main nerf but it seems like only 1/3 matches have carriers to worry about anyway. I would like to see the non-German secondaries buffed across the board but radar, super heal, or even more maneuverability? Last I checked Yamato has less of a turn radius than Montana.

 

460mm already overmatches everything; it's not going to be any worse a tier lower. If anything, those are more likely to overpen even more vs T7s than they do against T8s (nothing more frustrating than a perfect 460mm broadside overpenning a very lucky broadsiding CL or CA at certain ranges). Even with the octagonal citadel making her much harder to fight bow on, her citadel still sits high and she's not any more immune to 16" than Yamato is (or for that matter, immune to HE). Her HE might sting a bit more to a few lightly armored ships at T7, but it's not actually at its full strength compared to RNBB HE (blast size and fire chance) either.

 

At the very least, the reload needs to be restored back to 30s. Moreso since she's still likely to have her 72s traverse rather than an artificially buffed 55s or 45s traverse like Warspite/High Tier RNBBs do. The sigma can remain for now, with a case to be made to be buffed upwards at a later point if necessary.

 

The cards still fall towards negative for Musashi as she currently is for T9. If they also buffed her turning radius to at least 800m in addition to the buffed rudder shift, gave her back the old Repair Party Yamato had, or gave her the longest secondary range at the expense of a lack of secondaries and AA (and the fact that about half of the secondaries fire AP rather than HE), or any combination thereof, she'd work out as a decent T9, even if she has non-existent AA (which is going to be a weakness with the likes of APDBs once they become more common). Arizona proves a strong anti-surface combatant with virtually no AA can work, and Warspite prior to her traverse buff proved that a slow ship with anemic traverse but decent maneuverability and secondary ranges can hold her own, even if it means turning the entire ship around is faster than waiting for the turrets to realign.

 

1 hour ago, AraAragami said:

I will admit I strongly dislike WG's obsession with making sure sister ships can't division together without it being a faildiv.

 

Konig Albert/Kaiser

Nagato/Mutsu

Yamato/Musashi

Edinburgh/Belfast

 

What's the damn appeal to ensuring that ships of the same class can't sortie together?

 

What's ironic about it all is the fact that WG can clearly use names for planned but not built sister ships or fictional names for stock hull clones, while marketing same-tier but different gimmick/element sister ships that were built and making even more money, yet they refuse to do so. Just look at NY/Texas; where the AA differences can readily apply to Fuso/Yamashiro, Hiei/Kongou-Haruna-Kirishima, Colorado/Maryland-WV for a fast semi-clone with their own unique advantages/disadvantages over the sister ship. Same applies to Minekaze/Kamikaze Clones up until WG completely redid the IJN DD line and made the line ship drastically inferior.

 

Edited by YamatoA150
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3 minutes ago, issm said:

If Musashi releases in this state, I'll have no problem calling her the worst T9 BB in the game.

 

Still pick her up though if she's FXP.

I wouldn't agre with that from what I can tell I'd rather play Musashi than Izumo. 

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6 hours ago, Pope_Shizzle said:

97,000 hit points at tier 9?  20,000 more hit points than her closest competitor.  With the 460mm lolpen guns?  Yeah, this is garbage.  

 

Higher HP just means fire ticks for more.

 

460mm lolpen guns don't make a real difference except against BBs, and it has that 5s longer reload nerf, as well as worse accuracy vs Yamato.

 

She'll also have Yamato's crappy octagonal above-water citadel, making her easily the squishiest BB at T9. In addition, she has pitiful AA, pitiful secondaries, and Yamato's pitiful speed and concealment.

 

Easily the weakest BB at T9.

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6 minutes ago, starksrevenge said:

I wouldn't agre with that from what I can tell I'd rather play Musashi than Izumo. 

 

Izumo has a lower citadel without the weak points of an octagonal citadel. Izumo has faster reload, faster traverse, and better secondaries.

 

Lolpen doesn't make up for all of Musashi's downsides.

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Really wish the Musashi was a T10 with something like maybe the October Rev's fast but finite DCP concept or the Hood's DFAA (Justified by the 18.1" flak shells that didn't historically work any more than the Hoods rockets) or the Yamato's old heal or even something new to make it stand apart from her sister, but not to try to nerf her down a tier where she won't be fun to play as due to the slow reload RNG  and not fun to play against for the bottom tiers when she does hit.

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