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evilleMonkeigh

Leningrad = a better Blyskawica?

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Sadly I didn't play the Blyskawica much in its heyday. Looking at it in port, I was struck by how it now seems to compare unfavourably with the Leningrad.

Guns: While the Blyskawica is no slouch, the Leningrad does the long-range kiting thing better.  However, the Polish ship can save captain skills as EM is not mandatory, and it can use 4 guns when kiting away.  While you could claim it is better "mid range" its torpedoes let it down. It has a pretty good fire chance. 

Torpedoes: Leningrad has more and they are better. 

Stealth/Defence: Leningrad seems to sit lower in water. It also is mildly stealthier but since both are as stealthy as a neon blimp: like all T7s they suffer against T8+. Hitpoints are similar.

Speed/Agility: Leningrad is much faster.  It has a wider turning arc but better speed+rudder shift tends to offset this.

I want to like the Blyskawica but it seems to offer little over the Leningrad. I feel like I'm grasping at straws. It's advantages seem slight (turret traverse, turning circle, 4 guns on rear)  compared to significant Leningrad bonuses (better speed/flatter arcs = better kiting, much better torpedoes.)

I'm not an expert with either ship. I'd appreciate input from players who are good in both ships.  Is the Leningrad flat out better?

Edited by evilleMonkeigh

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Don't underestimate the importance of turret traverse.  It is hard to hit a target when you're dodging like a madman if your turrets can't keep up.

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The Leningrad's turret traverse can be made workable with MBM2 and EM. I destroy USN DDs in knife fights with my Leningrad. The 3.7 second rudder on the Leningrad versus the 5.8 second on the Blyskawica makes it much better at dodging long range shots and dodging shots while knife fighting. You just need to learn to get used to turret turn speed.

 

And yes, the Leningrad is better now. If you want to learn how to play the ship, feel free to contact me.

Edited by Lightninger

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Blys has very good ballistics and range for her guns making long range spamming easy, even easier than Lenin. Plus she is easier to stealth up, and has a faster torpedo reload. On top of that, her guns hurt and put out a good alpha strike while also having 2 more guns than Lenin, in a better configuration.

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3 minutes ago, Doomlock said:

Blys has very good ballistics and range for her guns making long range spamming easy, even easier than Lenin. Plus she is easier to stealth up, and has a faster torpedo reload. On top of that, her guns hurt and put out a good alpha strike while also having 2 more guns than Lenin, in a better configuration.

 

The Blys has the 120 mm British guns and I am pretty sure they lose more speed than then Lenin's 130 mms over long distance, but it does have better gun angles. The Blys does have faster torpedo reload but only has 2 x 3 torpedoes vs Leningrad's 2 x 4 torpedoes. The reload time per torpedo is identical (70 / 3 = 23.33, 92 / 4 = 23). The Blys has a minimum detection of 6.7 with CE and camo vs Lenin has 6.6 with CE and camo so Lenin is actually better than Blys.

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YES   The nerf bat hit the Blys particularly hard, once the terror of the seven digital seas, now just another tier 7 DD, but with crappy slow torps.  Leningrad now rules the roost for tier 7 DDs, fast, good torps - when running speed boost and 5% speed increase flag, very, very difficult to hit.  Fun, fun DD.

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6 minutes ago, Lightninger said:

 

The Blys has the 120 mm British guns and I am pretty sure they lose more speed than then Lenin's 130 mms over long distance, but it does have better gun angles. The Blys does have faster torpedo reload but only has 2 x 3 torpedoes vs Leningrad's 2 x 4 torpedoes. The reload time per torpedo is identical (70 / 3 = 23.33, 92 / 4 = 23). The Blys has a minimum detection of 6.7 with CE and camo vs Lenin has 6.6 with CE and camo so Lenin is actually better than Blys.

I did it off memory and wasn't sure of a couple things. Thanks for the fixes.

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18 minutes ago, Lightninger said:

The Leningrad's turret traverse can be made workable with MBM2 and EM.

Doesn't help the bad turret angles though.

During playtesting of Leningrad I kept reaching for my Blyskawica to blow off steam and I'll always claim Blyskawica is my favorite of the two, but I have to say that I hate fighting Leningrads in mine.

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10 minutes ago, Lert said:

Doesn't help the bad turret angles though.

During playtesting of Leningrad I kept reaching for my Blyskawica to blow off steam and I'll always claim Blyskawica is my favorite of the two, but I have to say that I hate fighting Leningrads in mine.

 

I doubt you put both MBM2 and EM when testing or didn't spend much time in that configuration, as having both makes your turret actually capable of staying on target when shooting long distance or knife fighting as you're dodging and weaving, leaving you able to fire when all guns can shoot. Having only one of the two makes a big difference. I might be persuaded to give a replay of my Leningrad knife fighting but that's giving away trade secrets, hehe.

Edited by Lightninger

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1 minute ago, Lightninger said:

I doubt you put both MBM2 and EM when testing

I did, and I found Leningrad to be a stubborn pig that I felt I spent more time fighting against than with. I don't have that feeling when driving my Blys. Plus, like I said, there's no skill or module that helps with bad turret traverse angles.

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Just now, Lert said:

I did, and I found Leningrad to be a stubborn pig that I felt I spent more time fighting against than with. I don't have that feeling when driving my Blys.

 

Fair enough, most players don't seem be very good at using Russian DD guns at close range and for knife fighting. I seem to be one of the few exceptions who excel at it. I can tell you that I can feel the shell velocity difference very acutely when on the other end of a knife fight using a USN DD. You have to use so much more lead even at 5 or 6 km.

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I love my Blys. I have a Leningrad as well, but haven't played it in a while. I'll have to take it out now and check to see if I feel the same way you do. 

 

It may just be be, but I love the feel of the Blys guns. I can consistently peg enemies at near max range, even cruisers and dd's. If Lenin plays the same way, then the problems with gun traverse might be mitigated at longer ranges. 

 

Thanks for reminding me I have another tier 7 gunboat trainer. :)

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One advantage that the Leningrad has is that as a Russian DD, it can be a trainer for Russian captains.  OTOH, it's arguably not a perfect trainer in that it definitely benefits having the CE skill, while some people argue that DD's like the Khaba don't really benefit from having a CE trained captain (at least not like they could when the Khaba had those 10 km torps), because you're constantly shooting.  Of course, if you have a Russian DD captain who does have CE skill and is well set up to get the most out of the Leningrad, then you're golden.

 

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50 minutes ago, evilleMonkeigh said:

  Is the Leningrad flat out better?

Might be now, wasn't before the stealthfire nerf.

18 minutes ago, Lert said:

I'll always claim Blyskawica is my favorite of the two, but I have to say that I hate fighting Leningrads in mine.

I liked Blys when she first came out, albeit she was difficult to learn. I also hate fighting Russian DD's (not just Leningrads) in her, because they always want to run away (so their guns will track as I turn in circles around them), and chasing isn't any DD's strong suit. But Blys has a lot to offer; good guns, good stealth(I can't believe they get Leningrad down to 0.1K less than Blys!), good speed and turning radius.

Blys got creamed by the invisifire nerf.

A lot of the older premium and line ships are now suffering from power creep; Leningrad came out almost a year after Blys. WoW might take a look at these and buff them a bit.

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2 minutes ago, DingBat said:

I love my Blys. I have a Leningrad as well, but haven't played it in a while. I'll have to take it out now and check to see if I feel the same way you do. 

 

It may just be be, but I love the feel of the Blys guns. I can consistently peg enemies at near max range, even cruisers and dd's. If Lenin plays the same way, then the problems with gun traverse might be mitigated at longer ranges. 

 

Thanks for reminding me I have another tier 7 gunboat trainer. :)

 

Give it a try. If you're used to Russian DD turret traverse, (~18 seconds for 180 degrees) Leningrad shouldn't be hard to use. If you need practice, use Storozhevoi down at tier II with EM to practice and get used to it. The turret traverse at long range will be no issue with MBM2 and EM. Most people will probably need to practice to knife fight with the Leningrad though

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3 minutes ago, Crucis said:

One advantage that the Leningrad has is that as a Russian DD, it can be a trainer for Russian captains.  OTOH, it's arguably not a perfect trainer in that it definitely benefits having the CE skill, while some people argue that DD's like the Khaba don't really benefit from having a CE trained captain (at least not like they could when the Khaba had those 10 km torps), because you're constantly shooting.  Of course, if you have a Russian DD captain who does have CE skill and is well set up to get the most out of the Leningrad, then you're golden.

 

My Leningrad Captain and my Khab Captain have the exact same skills; I actually had to look to double check that!

Neither runs CE (yes, no CE on my Leningrad), both are at 16 points with 1 free, so both will have an extra 4 point skill when they reach 19 points. 

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5 minutes ago, Crucis said:

One advantage that the Leningrad has is that as a Russian DD, it can be a trainer for Russian captains.  OTOH, it's arguably not a perfect trainer in that it definitely benefits having the CE skill, while some people argue that DD's like the Khaba don't really benefit from having a CE trained captain (at least not like they could when the Khaba had those 10 km torps), because you're constantly shooting.  Of course, if you have a Russian DD captain who does have CE skill and is well set up to get the most out of the Leningrad, then you're golden.

 

 

I actually use CE on all my Russian DDs except for Khaba, but then again, I don't play my Russian DDs like most people either. To use CE effectively on Russian DDs though, you need to either have better natural situational awareness than most or learn it. If anyone is up for trying to learn, feel free to contact me.

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3 minutes ago, Umikami said:

My Leningrad Captain and my Khab Captain have the exact same skills; I actually had to look to double check that!

Neither runs CE (yes, no CE on my Leningrad), both are at 16 points with 1 free, so both will have an extra 4 point skill when they reach 19 points. 

 

The Leningrad does greatly benefit from CE though, as the 6.6 km detection is competitive with Sims and Blys 6.7 km, better than Mahan and Maass, and the small difference versus IJN DDs makes them very easy to find, catch, and destroy.

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Just now, Lightninger said:

 

The Leningrad does greatly benefit from CE though, as the 6.6 km detection is competitive with Sims and Blys 6.7 km, better than Mahan and Maass, and the small difference versus IJN DDs makes them very easy to find, catch, and destroy.

Oh. I'm not doubting that; I'm just saying the ship is definitely competitive without it. It really does play like a little Khab.

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6 minutes ago, Umikami said:

My Leningrad Captain and my Khab Captain have the exact same skills; I actually had to look to double check that!

Neither runs CE (yes, no CE on my Leningrad), both are at 16 points with 1 free, so both will have an extra 4 point skill when they reach 19 points. 

I'd have to check my Leningrad, but if you're not using CE then you lose the ability to stealth torp, IIRC.  And to my way of thinking, that's giving up an extremely useful ability.

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Just now, Umikami said:

Oh. I'm not doubting that; I'm just saying the ship is definitely competitive without it. It really does play like a little Khab.

Indeed.  If you aren't using CE (or at least don't have it YET), the Leningrad probably does play quite like a tier 7 Khab.

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2 minutes ago, Crucis said:

I'd have to check my Leningrad, but if you're not using CE then you lose the ability to stealth torp, IIRC.  And to my way of thinking, that's giving up an extremely useful ability.

 

You can still stealth torp without CE but the window is much smaller. (7.3 with camo, vs 6.6 with camo and CE versus 8 km torpedo range)

Edited by Lightninger

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3 minutes ago, Lightninger said:

 

You can still stealth torp without CE but the window is much smaller. (7.3 with camo, vs 6.6 with camo and CE versus 8 km torpedo range)

AH, ok, thx.  Didn't have WoWS open.  Still, that's a rather narrow window.  And it certainly does make life easier to have a wider stealth torping window.

 

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I don't have WoWs open either, heh. Leningrad is my favorite ship in game, with random stats currently at 213 battles and 66.2% win rate, and 129 battles in ranked with a 64.34% win rate, you can say I know the ship very well.

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51 minutes ago, Lightninger said:

The Blys has the 120 mm British guns and I am pretty sure they lose more speed than then Lenin's 130 mms over long distance, but it does have better gun angles. The Blys does have faster torpedo reload but only has 2 x 3 torpedoes vs Leningrad's 2 x 4 torpedoes. The reload time per torpedo is identical (70 / 3 = 23.33, 92 / 4 = 23). The Blys has a minimum detection of 6.7 with CE and camo vs Lenin has 6.6 with CE and camo so Lenin is actually better than Blys.

Correction: Blys has 120mm Swedish guns. They're a lot higher velocity than the British 120s and also fire a heavier shell. As such they retain velocity better than the British 120s (as seen on Gallant).

That said, Błyskawica has been power creeped by Leningrad. Would be nice if her 120mm Bofors got their historical 6s reload. Would be even nicer if we got a 2nd hull option for post-refit Błyskawica with 4x2 102mm DP guns, she'd be like a T7 version of Akizuki.

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