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Enough with the cries of "Spot for me"

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On ‎10‎/‎15‎/‎2017 at 9:41 PM, Skyfaller said:

,Here's the problem:

 

You're a DD. You have stealth. You have torpedoes. 

 

Yet...for some reason, you insist on not flanking or infiltrating behind the red team's lines to spot AND torp with significantly higher effectiveness... all because you choose to SIT in smoke (aka, NOT SPOTTING) and firing your dinky little guns at said BBs hoping for fire damage. 

 

I run a Shimakaze AND a Yamato. I can tell you that when my shima is in the field I completely avoid using guns unless im spotted and fired upon by another DD... from the very start of the battle I rush to get past the midpoint of the map and get behind or flank the entire red team. The result is my BBs ALWAYS have FULL spotting of most of the red team and can make best use of their guns...all the while i'm delivering damage and forcing their team to turn and expose their citadels...and distract their cruisers from spamming HE on our BBs to try and find me. 

 

As a Yamato I see DD's like you in every single battle... sitting in the front line in smoke firing guns and doing nothing other than capping and usually dying quickly afterwards to radar+cruiser fire or soviet gunboat DD's. Most of the times those that rush-cap at the start end up seeing that cap lost a minute later..and team loses more points by losing that DD than the cap the DD did gained in that few minutes..and the green team is left with one less DD worth of damage and spotting capability. 

 

KNOW YOUR ROLE. DO IT. 

 

Unless you're a soviet DD gunboat you should not be freaking sitting in smoke firing guns nor rushing to cap at map start. Your job is to spot and to torp. Killing ships gives significantly higher points and if you spot and flank and torp your team will gain a significant lead very early on..by killing the red team DD's and cruisers that lemming rushed+sat in smoke shooting. Its only after most cruisers and DDs are dead that you can get onto capping to secure the win. 

 

If you're a BB your job is to kill cruisers as your priority. They are the bane of DDs and they are the highest DPS units in the game (fires+HE damage spam) vs BBs. Killing BB's comes after that. 

If you're a cruiser your job is to kill DDs as priority and other cruisers when you see them. Your guns allow you to toss some HE salvos at BBs every so often to try for a fire.

 

But what we see in game is BB's ignoring cruisers to shoot other BBs... cruisers ignoring DDs to shoot HE+Fire at other BBs..and DDs not flanking nor spotting because they are lemming rushing to cap and die quickly and/or they sit in smoke in the front line firing at the freaking BB's hoping for fires. 

 

KNOW YOUR ROLE. DO IT. 

As someone who also plays a Shimakaze and Yamato, I know where you're coming from, and I couldn't agree more with your strategy and opinion. Unfortunately when I try to do what you say with my Shima, or other DDs at the beginning of a match, I end up with a bunch of team mates berating and flaming me in the chat box for not capping immediately. It's like the teams I'm on expect me to do all the capping and tanking in my DDs, while the BBs stay in the back and snipe at max range, and the cruisers all hide behind islands as far away from the caps as possible, spamming HE at BBs.

For me sneaking to the rear of the enemy line, scouting, and harassing enemy ships who are camping, as you say, is much more fun than capping early, which is really frustrating when your team is no where near the caps giving you needed fire support.

I understand you need to cap to win, but if you loose all your DDs early, because they got wiped out by enemy DDs, Cruisers, and BBs spotting them in the caps, then your team will lose for certain. There has to be a better way of dealing with the capping situation, than expecting DDs to carry the whole load the first five minutes of the game. You explained that better way brilliantly in your post, and I'll definitely follow your advice more often now when I play my DDs, no matter the flaming or criticism I get. 

Edited by champflyer
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The game reward system simply need to give out more incentive for DDs and carriers to spot.

 

Currently the gain from spotting damage is simply too low for DDs. They also need to add ribbons for spotting ships so ppl are aware that they are rewarded for such behavior.

 

Camping BBs are annoying. However, most of my bad games experience are due to incompetent DDs. The game needs to do a better job to incentivize DDs to do the right things.

Edited by Exciton8964

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On ‎10‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 5:05 PM, Exciton8964 said:

The game reward system simply need to give out more incentive for DDs and carriers to spot.

 

Currently the gain from spotting damage is simply too low for DDs. They also need to add ribbons for spotting ships so ppl are aware that they are rewarded for such behavior.

 

Camping BBs are annoying. However, most of my bad games experience are due to incompetent DDs. The game needs to do a better job to incentivize DDs to do the right things.

I agree but I also think a slight tweak needs to be made to spotting mechanics or at least to how assist damage is awarded.  As it is now a DD could potentially spot a ship and not get any assist damage even if the red ship is subsequently nuked.

For example:

A DD spots a red BB going broadside to three friendly BB's beyond any of the BB's detection range (Red BB cant see the friendlies either).  The three friendlies open up and are all subsequently spotted by the Red, the Red BB then immediately lobs shells at the nearest target and is also subsequently detected by the three friendly BBs making the DD's spotting superfluous.  The shells fired from the three friendly BB's then land and nuke the Red and none of the Assist damage goes to the DD.

Now this is based on an assumption that spotting damage is awarded in a similar manner to WoT, if it is different in WoWS then that must also be clarified so that scouts know that as well.

 

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I just love it when I am actively engaging enemy BBs and CA/CLs in my BB and a friendly DD lays a smoke screen between me and the enemy....and then sits in his smoke preventing me from returning fire.

 

 

Actually, no, I don’t love that.

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I just prefer to think of people who use the "Need Intel" command as trying to communicate that they need intelligence (as in a functional brain).

Edited by ValkyrWarframe

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On ‎10‎/‎15‎/‎2017 at 9:40 PM, Sovereigndawg said:

Team work is only for the red team it seems.

Its in the EULA or TOS, I think.  You get banned for doing it for the Green team.

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On 10/15/2017 at 11:41 PM, Skyfaller said:

Here's the problem:

 

You're a DD. You have stealth. You have torpedoes. 

 

Yet...for some reason, you insist on not flanking or infiltrating behind the red team's lines to spot AND torp with significantly higher effectiveness... all because you choose to SIT in smoke (aka, NOT SPOTTING) and firing your dinky little guns at said BBs hoping for fire damage. 

 

I run a Shimakaze AND a Yamato. I can tell you that when my shima is in the field I completely avoid using guns unless im spotted and fired upon by another DD... from the very start of the battle I rush to get past the midpoint of the map and get behind or flank the entire red team. The result is my BBs ALWAYS have FULL spotting of most of the red team and can make best use of their guns...all the while i'm delivering damage and forcing their team to turn and expose their citadels...and distract their cruisers from spamming HE on our BBs to try and find me. 

 

As a Yamato I see DD's like you in every single battle... sitting in the front line in smoke firing guns and doing nothing other than capping and usually dying quickly afterwards to radar+cruiser fire or soviet gunboat DD's. Most of the times those that rush-cap at the start end up seeing that cap lost a minute later..and team loses more points by losing that DD than the cap the DD did gained in that few minutes..and the green team is left with one less DD worth of damage and spotting capability. 

 

KNOW YOUR ROLE. DO IT. 

 

Unless you're a soviet DD gunboat you should not be freaking sitting in smoke firing guns nor rushing to cap at map start. Your job is to spot and to torp. Killing ships gives significantly higher points and if you spot and flank and torp your team will gain a significant lead very early on..by killing the red team DD's and cruisers that lemming rushed+sat in smoke shooting. Its only after most cruisers and DDs are dead that you can get onto capping to secure the win. 

 

If you're a BB your job is to kill cruisers as your priority. They are the bane of DDs and they are the highest DPS units in the game (fires+HE damage spam) vs BBs. Killing BB's comes after that. 

If you're a cruiser your job is to kill DDs as priority and other cruisers when you see them. Your guns allow you to toss some HE salvos at BBs every so often to try for a fire.

 

But what we see in game is BB's ignoring cruisers to shoot other BBs... cruisers ignoring DDs to shoot HE+Fire at other BBs..and DDs not flanking nor spotting because they are lemming rushing to cap and die quickly and/or they sit in smoke in the front line firing at the freaking BB's hoping for fires. 

 

KNOW YOUR ROLE. DO IT. 

I think you're missing the point.

 

I never fire from smoke, i refuse to do it. But what the original poster was complaining about was passive BBs hiding in back expecting the DDs to do all the work (and take all the risk) while they sit passively out of harm's way. I will gladly provide smoke for a BB, spot for him/her, warn them of incoming torps, defend them against all threats .... IF (and this is a BIG IF), IF they actually push forward. They can't cover me from 15k behind me, and i'm not capping a flag against enemy DDs and radar equipped cruisers when my nearest teammates are sitting 15k behind me saying "go cap, we'll support" - yeah right.

 

You want me to spot for you, cap for you, provide you with smoke? Glad to do it, but only if you (and this is a rhetorical "you" not you personally), only if the BBs get their heavily armored, hard hitting, healing butts into the fight.

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47 minutes ago, FleetAdmiral_Assassin said:

I think you're missing the point.

 

I never fire from smoke, i refuse to do it. But what the original poster was complaining about was passive BBs hiding in back expecting the DDs to do all the work (and take all the risk) while they sit passively out of harm's way. I will gladly provide smoke for a BB, spot for him/her, warn them of incoming torps, defend them against all threats .... IF (and this is a BIG IF), IF they actually push forward. They can't cover me from 15k behind me, and i'm not capping a flag against enemy DDs and radar equipped cruisers when my nearest teammates are sitting 15k behind me saying "go cap, we'll support" - yeah right.

 

You want me to spot for you, cap for you, provide you with smoke? Glad to do it, but only if you (and this is a rhetorical "you" not you personally), only if the BBs get their heavily armored, hard hitting, healing butts into the fight.

 

I will point out you specified the BB's being 15km behind you because that is a critical distance to this argument... that's the range of most HE spamming cruisers. Those are the problem.. and given DD's do not spot those cruisers so that the BB's can shoot them down nor are DD's spotting other DD's (yes there's risk doing this but only a DD can spot another DD in relative safety and have a good chance of escaping due to their smoke..ergo a cruiser spotting a DD has been spotted by said DD already..and is likely under BB fire).

 

I do want DD's to spot for my BB but I cannot push forward along with you as long as there's multiple HE spamming cruisers that can and will HE spam me down in under a minute's time. Armor does not protect vs HE nor fire..and the repair ability is negated fully by the constant armor-ignoring high refire rate nad high damage HE falling on my BB. That's why DD's must be spotting those cruisers so BBs can take them down..and THEN the BBs can advance. 

 

Flipping your argument... you want me to 'tank' for you? Then go spot and torp..not sit in smoke expecting OTHERS to spot for you so you can HE spam from inside said smoke. Don't rush to cap and die, giving the red team far more points than we gain by capping the flag. Use your speed and stealth to spot. Use your torps to damage and force the reds to show their sides to your BBs.

 

Know your role. Do it. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Skyfaller said:

 

I will point out you specified the BB's being 15km behind you because that is a critical distance to this argument... that's the range of most HE spamming cruisers. Those are the problem.. and given DD's do not spot those cruisers so that the BB's can shoot them down nor are DD's spotting other DD's (yes there's risk doing this but only a DD can spot another DD in relative safety and have a good chance of escaping due to their smoke..ergo a cruiser spotting a DD has been spotted by said DD already..and is likely under BB fire).

 

I do want DD's to spot for my BB but I cannot push forward along with you as long as there's multiple HE spamming cruisers that can and will HE spam me down in under a minute's time. Armor does not protect vs HE nor fire..and the repair ability is negated fully by the constant armor-ignoring high refire rate nad high damage HE falling on my BB. That's why DD's must be spotting those cruisers so BBs can take them down..and THEN the BBs can advance. 

 

Flipping your argument... you want me to 'tank' for you? Then go spot and torp..not sit in smoke expecting OTHERS to spot for you so you can HE spam from inside said smoke. Don't rush to cap and die, giving the red team far more points than we gain by capping the flag. Use your speed and stealth to spot. Use your torps to damage and force the reds to show their sides to your BBs.

 

Know your role. Do it. 

 

 

As I said, I NEVER fire from smoke. You saying that all I do is fire from smoke while expecting you to push up is an invalid argument because I NEVER do that. 99% of all my DD games are me pushing up to spot/cap/flank while the rest of my team sits back at a safe distance complaining that I'm not doing it fast enough for their liking, while 5 enemy ships are using me for target practice.

 

You can't "support" a DD from farther back than 5km. HE cruisers are NOT the problem, yes they are annoying and I fully support a huge nerf to the fire chance mechanic, but that's not why BBs are hanging back. Let's not forget that BBs get that wonderful heal ability that few others get.

 

That same fire chance they have on you, they also have on me. The same percentage of your total hp that they burn off of you, is the same percentage that they burn off of me. I just don't get to heal it. And let's not forget that given a chance to shoot at you or me, they are going to be shooting at me not you (hoping for the easy kill). They also get more points damaging me than you (the points go by the percentage of damage done to the enemy ship, 1000 pts of damage to a DD is a higher percentage of total hp than 1k damage to a BB). Again it is in your favor to be near me. Not only will they be more likely to fire at me instead of you, but what damage you take (from HE) can be healed (I can't heal). Even WG has admitted that passive BB play is having an adverse affect on the game.

 

Just as it is the job of the DD to spot, it is the job of the BB to tank. But hanging in back doesn't support the DDs, doesn't tank either. The definition of tanking is absorbing damage so your teammates don't have to. But sitting way way back sacrifices your teammates. In order to keep those pesky CAs off the DDs you need to push up. I can't go spot those CAs for you, if you're so far back the CAs have no fear in charging me.

 

Look at the most successful matches. DDs rush up to cap, with CAs right behind them supporting with radar (to kill/scare off enemy DDs), and BBs right behind them to kill/scare off enemy CAs. That's how to do it. I see it often (on red), their team's BBs and CAs actually get on the flag radius. But instead I keep getting on teams where the BBs and most CAs just hide way back or behind an island (where they can't be seen which means they deter NO ONE), and leave me out for target practice. I get spotted by DDs on enemy team, and their CAs (that actually moved up to support them) wipe me out. I can't get away because they pop radar and focus fire with half their team, while my team is hiding way in the back. I can't see their CAs coming because they're behind smoke or islands. By the time I see them it is too late and I'm well within radar range. If only my team's CAs and BBs would do the same.

 

You want DDs to push up and spot/flank/cap? Then you need to push up to actually support them by scaring off those enemy CAs. The problem isn't DDs not pushing up, the problem is passive BBs afraid to get their paint scratched despite having the most HP, the heaviest armor, and the best healing in the game expecting the fragile ships that melt if seen to do all the work.

 

I am furious at all the passive BBs out there, coming up with every excuse in the book as to why they can't move up while expecting everyone else to do so. It comes down to this:

You have the most HPs (you are expected to absorb the most damage).

You have the most armor (you have the best protection from incoming shells allowing you to live the longest while being fired upon).

You have the best healing ability (extending your ability to take hostile fire).

So get your butt into the fight.

Yes you have crappy steering and speed, but i'm not expecting you to lead the charge, I'll lead the charge, i just expect you to have my back and follow me in (not hiding in back or turning tail and running at the first sign of an enemy).

Edited by FleetAdmiral_Assassin
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Well, OP, DDs & any Cruiser or BB with planes can 'spot' for others. Ships spot by moving towards the enemy. CVs can also spot (tho they have their own concerns there).

 In fact, all ships have the ability to 'spot'. It's called 'what they get to see' however that happens.

 I have to agree that calls for spotting are irksome since each player has their own ideas on what they should be doing (for their own ideas and/or situation).

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7 hours ago, aethervox said:

Well, OP, DDs & any Cruiser or BB with planes can 'spot' for others. Ships spot by moving towards the enemy. CVs can also spot (tho they have their own concerns there).

 In fact, all ships have the ability to 'spot'. It's called 'what they get to see' however that happens.

 I have to agree that calls for spotting are irksome since each player has their own ideas on what they should be doing (for their own ideas and/or situation).

Aside from carriers, only 2 ship classes get the chance to spot without being spotted in return, and of those 2 only one has the highest chance of spotting without being spotted back. 

 

Care to guess which two and which one of those two I refer to?

 

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necro alert!

 

think of warriors. 

all that they are, all that they do, all that they achieve.

 

think of soldiers. all that they are, all that they do, all that they achieve.

 

when warriors meet soldiers, warriors die...in wholesale lots.

 

meeting engagements are messy. chaos is the rule.  developing deliberation from chaos wins the battle.

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Hey

It's the never ending cycle that some DD players don't get.  Big,slow BB's need spotting so they can engage enemy cruisers who are moving in to kill you DD's but I can't shoot what I can't see.  If I go into a cap and things get hairy; you DD's have the option of better running away and leaving my big, slow BB open to focus fire and I get killed, now who is going to try and cover you.  How many times have I been set on fire, torped, trying to survive, only to have a DD run off or not even bother to smoke me up so I can heal or make a retreat myself.  Then you wonder why some BB's will sit further back and use their range and I will admit I have seen many BB's in the last few months not push, or play lazy campers and I find that frustrating myself.  But I also see DD's being a lot more selfish in how they play and not trying to play the objective of getting caps.  Playing these days has gotten worse when it applies to tactics, helping your team, playing objectives, and helping one another out.  This isn't just a BB versus DD thing, it's across the board level of play that is due to selfishness instead of team.  Sorry, my 2 cents.

 

Pete

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It's a vicious cycle.

The more DD players encounter BBs that refuse under any circumstances to come within 10km of the 'frontline' of the map the less willing they are to scout out that frontline where there might be a cruiser waiting that their BBs won't be able to annihilate at ~ 15km ( 5km from the DD though ).

The less willing DDs are the scout leaving BBs to 'clear corners' along the frontline only to find a shoal of torps or a quarter of the enemy team lighting them.

Beyond the obvious points there I think there's a thing or two that each should keep in mind.

A DD's spotting advantages are more valuable then it's smoke, if someone's asking for you to stop spotting and start smoking then there'd best be someone close to dead.

A BB's mere presence especially against spotted ships at sub 10km ranges provide significant deterrence to cruisers and DDs, if a DD's doing the hard work of spotting then as a BB you have to get in there and delete some cruisers, provide secondary support for dueling DDs and generally make a mess of things.

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On 11/21/2017 at 2:36 PM, sasquatch_research said:

Hey

It's the never ending cycle that some DD players don't get.  Big,slow BB's need spotting so they can engage enemy cruisers who are moving in to kill you DD's but I can't shoot what I can't see.  If I go into a cap and things get hairy; you DD's have the option of better running away and leaving my big, slow BB open to focus fire and I get killed, now who is going to try and cover you.  How many times have I been set on fire, torped, trying to survive, only to have a DD run off or not even bother to smoke me up so I can heal or make a retreat myself.  Then you wonder why some BB's will sit further back and use their range and I will admit I have seen many BB's in the last few months not push, or play lazy campers and I find that frustrating myself.  But I also see DD's being a lot more selfish in how they play and not trying to play the objective of getting caps.  Playing these days has gotten worse when it applies to tactics, helping your team, playing objectives, and helping one another out.  This isn't just a BB versus DD thing, it's across the board level of play that is due to selfishness instead of team.  Sorry, my 2 cents.

 

Pete

BB at t8+  are as fast as any other ship.   while DD can spot others,  if BB is staying near max range, they won't hit anything anyway.  No one is saying BB need to push cap.  but they need to stay at about 7-8km of DD and   with Cruisers.    Lets face it,  you havn't figured out the t8+ meta, and until you improve, you won't do well.      you do alright with t7, but t8 is gateway tier and meta change is real.   

 

I have never asked for spot from DD, but I do ask for scouting.  I will push behind DDs but use cover for retreat as needed.    heck, I never even mounted fcs upgrade on my t9 BBs.   19km is plenty of range for BB when I run it.   yet,  I seem to do alright with them.    you need to figure out what needs to be done to help team win, rather than blame others. 

 

 

 

Edited by centarina
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Hey

I for one always try to support my DD's at a cap. There is nothing wrong with staying at a medium range and using your guns to support those who are getting the caps; and I do get very frustrated anytime a player fails to play the objective, be they a DD who just will not go into cap, or a DD and a cruiser who turn tail and run and leave your BB to die, or BB's that seem to want to sit in the back and don't want to push to protect a cap.  And the lazy BB's seem to be getting worse at times.  People seem to forget team play, play the objective, helping each other out when someone is in need, like laying smoke to a guy who is under focus fire.  There seems to be a lot more of a selfish game play these days, than compared to a year ago, maybe it's me.  I play mostly in a division since it's easier to make in game changes, picking targets, and trying to get that objective of winning, not that it works out everytime BUT it's also a great way to make new friends.

 

Pete 

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I don't know why each ship class is blaming the other all the time. It's a team game, every ship class has a role to play, if one person fails at their task then the rest of the team suffers.

On 11/2/2017 at 7:06 AM, FleetAdmiral_Assassin said:

Look at the most successful matches. DDs rush up to cap, with CAs right behind them supporting with radar (to kill/scare off enemy DDs), and BBs right behind them to kill/scare off enemy CAs. That's how to do it. I see it often (on red), their team's BBs and CAs actually get on the flag radius.

So get your butt into the fight.

^^ This right here, this is the role of the ENTIRE team. If someone is going to get blamed, it's the ones that don't fulfill their role whether it be a DD, CL/CA, BB or CV, not the fault of an individual class of ship.

 

On 11/2/2017 at 5:57 AM, Skyfaller said:

Know your role. Do it.

^^ This right here, applies to EVERYONE no matter what class of ship you play. Refer to previous quote if you don't know what the base of your role is.

 

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