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Battleship AP vs. Destroyers

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I'm normally not a huge fan of Flamu, and very rarely do I really agree with the things he says. I respect him greatly as a player and CC and all, but eh. I normally don't agree with what he says but I 100% agree with this video that popped up in my suggested box:

Spoiler

 

Granted the video itself is a good 2-ish months old, the content still matches what goes on in the game today. BB AP still does ludicrous amounts of damage to DD. I had a friend in a Gearing get 18k of his 22k HP shaved off by a Montana from ~15km from 3 shell hits. That same game my Khabarovsk got nailed for 14k. Granted the Khab is an armored DD and is especially vulnerable to AP for it, but the Gearing is thinly armored and 3 shell hits should not do 18k to it.

 

For those who can't be bothered to watch the full length of the video, let me sum it up for you: 

  • Unless you're a seal clubber in a RN BB, the AP pens on DDs provide a very brain-dead playstyle. Well, maybe not braindead, just really lazy. "Why should BBs ever switch over to HE to shoot at DDs when their AP already does massive damage anyways?" I can appreciate the RN BBs being an attempt to kind of emphasize HE more on BBs, but, well, we all know what happened there
  • DDs are punished with massive vollies from BB AP for doing their job. Early in the video, Flamu's GK fired an AP volly at a Shima and 2 shell hits did nearly 10k damage. What is there that can possibly justify that? Having literally over half your HP shaved off in a matter of seconds for trying to do your job is beyond stupid. That Shima tried to push the cap and spot, like he should, got spotted by another Shima, turned away to disengage, and lost over half his HP for it. There's literally no right move to make. Keep to the same course and get punished by the enemy DDs and CAs. Turn away, lose ludicrous amounts of HP to BB AP that just clips your tail just as you fall back into concealment. 
  • To top is all off, DDs are already hard enough to play without these BB AP pens. The amount of random things that can screw you over is pretty long. Try to smoke up to cover yourself or an ally? Radar. Blind fish. Try to torp a BB that's already wrecked two of your team's CAs? Hydro. Planes. Radar. Unspotted DDs. Try to push a cap and spot for your team? Radar. Granted these are a bit situational, DDs can still be screwed over by the slightest turn or change of speed by their targets. I've had a torp spread that would've otherwise deleted a BB had he not pressed his D key for 2-3 seconds. Then you have the things that randomly spot you and usually you pay for dearly. Hydro. Radar. Planes. CVs. Stealth-ier DDs. And even if that was the case, DDs have been nerfed in about 80% of game patches. Take the Shimmy. It used to be a widely feared DD by most people back in they day with its dangerous and hard hitting torpedoes. The Shimmy's fish still hurt, but take some F3's and TA on your captain, you have 81 KNOT FISH WITH A >10 SECOND REACTION TIME. Care to explain how 81 knot fish having a 10 sec reaction time makes sense. And that's assuming they're not spotted earlier by hydro or planes.

 

"But, realistically, if a shell that size were to hit a DD of course it would do massive damage." And you're right. IRL a single BB HE shell would pop a DD like an unwanted zit. But in the game, no BBs ever fire HE at DDs(Save for the RN) because why should they? Sure they might break an engine or set a fire, but why do that when you can shave off over half their HP with a AP salvo? Furthermore, don't use the whole "realism" argument for an arcade game. ARCADE. NOT SIMULATOR. Plus, people who use that argument only use it for the things that they support. If you want a realistic game, why not increase BB accuracy to realistic levels? Simple. Because it would kill of the entire BB class faster and flood the forums faster then you can say "Well, that escalated quickly." While realistically, yes it would make sense, balance-wise, in the sort of "Rock, Paper, Scissors" balance idea that's been tossed around, so its like "BB, DD, CA," if that makes sense. DD>BB, CA>DD, BB>CA. BBs can basically counter everything. Granted that is not always the case, and a really good CA or DD captain can tear off a BB's main armor belt and beat him with it, most of the time a single mistake a BB will punish you very, VERY, (excessively) for. I can live with paying for my mistakes, we all can. But when the slightest screw up is all it takes to completely screw you over usually for the rest of the match? Yeah, uhhh, no. 

 

 

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I can understand why the AP on battleships against DDs should be tweaked, but I wouldn't switch to HE on my battleships even if almost every shell I hit will guarantee to over-penetrate.

Why?

Consistency.

Most battleships' HE shells have worsened ballistics compared to heavier APs

Battleships' poor accuracy and slow rate of fire make switching shell types not only challenging but also dangerous.

DDs have tones of modules cramped on a small ship that may soak up whatever HE shell you throw at them.

DDs modules saturate so quickly that a hit on a superstructure won't deal more than 1k damage sometimes.

 

There's no reason for bbs to switch to HE aginst DDs, not because of the AP is strong (it is strong), but because the HE is garbage.

 

No. I do not regard Conqueror as a proper battleship.

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I generally won't waste a main gun salvo on a DD as there are better things to shoot at and my seconds will take care of you anyway.  That said, if you get to the point where I feel I have to shoot at you, then you get what you deserve for being that close and hanging around that long. 

Edited by CaptGodzillaPig

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19 minutes ago, The_first_harbinger said:

I can understand why the AP on battleships against DDs should be tweaked, but I wouldn't switch to HE on my battleships even if almost every shell I hit will guarantee to over-penetrate.

Why?

Consistency.

Most battleships' HE shells have worsened ballistics compared to heavier APs

Battleships' poor accuracy and slow rate of fire make switching shell types not only challenging but also dangerous.

DDs have tones of modules cramped on a small ship that may soak up whatever HE shell you throw at them.

DDs modules saturate so quickly that a hit on a superstructure won't deal more than 1k damage sometimes.

 

There's no reason for bbs to switch to HE aginst DDs, not because of the AP is strong (it is strong), but because the HE is garbage.

 

No. I do not regard Conqueror as a proper battleship.

yeah, I'm firing whatever I have loaded at the DD that pops up in close range to me.

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So why should gun physics, IN GAME PHYSICS be changed just for DDs. If a shell that penetrates and explodes inside suddenly shouldn't do damage to you because...reasons?

 

Umm no. Already have no citadels, you can deal with 30% pens.

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20 minutes ago, The_first_harbinger said:

I can understand why the AP on battleships against DDs should be tweaked, but I wouldn't switch to HE on my battleships even if almost every shell I hit will guarantee to over-penetrate.

Why?

Consistency.

Most battleships' HE shells have worsened ballistics compared to heavier APs

Battleships' poor accuracy and slow rate of fire make switching shell types not only challenging but also dangerous.

DDs have tones of modules cramped on a small ship that may soak up whatever HE shell you throw at them.

DDs modules saturate so quickly that a hit on a superstructure won't deal more than 1k damage sometimes.

 

There's no reason for bbs to switch to HE aginst DDs, not because of the AP is strong (it is strong), but because the HE is garbage.

 

No. I do not regard Conqueror as a proper battleship.

That's just a risk you'll have to take. BBs in general are usually the most forgiving of mistakes. Granted not always, because if you isolate yourself in a CV match and get deleted because of it, then that's your fault. If you load HE to deal with a DD and suddenly a CL pops up then that's you paying for the risk you took to deal with a DD. Although if a target pops up at close range I agree just fire whatever you may have loaded and queue up the other ammo type if you need to

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6 minutes ago, IronWolfV said:

So why should gun physics, IN GAME PHYSICS be changed just for DDs. If a shell that penetrates and explodes inside suddenly shouldn't do damage to you because...reasons?

 

Umm no. Already have no citadels, you can deal with 30% pens.

Yes, because 18k off a Gearing is only 30%

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What Flamu fails to explain is why all of a sudden this is NOW a problem and not two and a half years ago when in CBT Citadels were removed from DD's for the "same" reasons.  The reason is, because it's NOT a problem.  It never has been, and never will be.  Don't even begin to state "because radar" as that's a horrible excuse.  USN DD's didn't have real torps until just after OBT IIRC and were forced into those suicidal ranges just to use torpedoes.


DD's are high risk, high reward ships.  If you want to play at ranges where you will easily be detected, then you accept the possibility of being detected in a ship that has no armor, and no HP.  That, by it's very nature increases the chance of you going "pop" due to enemy fire.  The REWARD could be doing massive damage to your intended target.

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1 minute ago, FireAndHEspam said:

Yes, because 18k off a Gearing is only 30%

 

 

He didn't say 30% of HP, he said 30% Penetrations.  That being the normal damage caused when an AP shell penetrates but does not find a citadel.  Multiple 30% pens will add up to 18k.

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2 minutes ago, FireAndHEspam said:

Yes, because 18k off a Gearing is only 30%

No 18k is 3 30% penetrating hits. Same thing happens to cruisers all the time. So seriously.

justin-timberlake-cry-me-a-river.gif

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DDs simply deal with it. They have the best agility for dodging. If they get hit, that's their fault for being visible in the first place.

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3 minutes ago, UrPeaceKeeper said:

What Flamu fails to explain is why all of a sudden this is NOW a problem and not two and a half years ago when in CBT Citadels were removed from DD's for the "same" reasons.  The reason is, because it's NOT a problem.  It never has been, and never will be.  Don't even begin to state "because radar" as that's a horrible excuse.  USN DD's didn't have real torps until just after OBT IIRC and were forced into those suicidal ranges just to use torpedoes.


DD's are high risk, high reward ships.  If you want to play at ranges where you will easily be detected, then you accept the possibility of being detected in a ship that has no armor, and no HP.  That, by it's very nature increases the chance of you going "pop" due to enemy fire.  The REWARD could be doing massive damage to your intended target.

I do think it is still reasonable for Gearing, the fattest DD of them all, to have better agility than Fletcher.

Gearing was designed with fixes to Fletcher's problematic agility, but this is not reflected in WoWs... because, reasons.

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Just now, MrDeaf said:

I do think it is still reasonable for Gearing, the fattest DD of them all, to have better agility than Fletcher.

Gearing was designed with fixes to Fletcher's problematic agility, but this is not reflected in WoWs... because, reasons.

 

There are a lot of reasons why Gearing is a huge downgrade over Fletcher.  Gun range and maneuverability are the two biggest ones.  I'd love to see Gearing get longer range and a more realistic ruddershift and turning radius to actually make it an upgrade over Fletcher.

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1 minute ago, MrDeaf said:

I do think it is still reasonable for Gearing, the fattest DD of them all, to have better agility than Fletcher.

Gearing was designed with fixes to Fletcher's problematic agility, but this is not reflected in WoWs... because, reasons.

That I'll give ya. Gearing's agility is quite shite and should be improved.

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Here's a tip, unless you're already in something wide (Gearing, Z-52, Kabab), take the hit on the broadside.  It's not at all something you think you should do, but there's a lot less ship and a much lower chance of a standard penetration.

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8 minutes ago, Sirus_Patton said:

Here's a tip, unless you're already in something wide (Gearing, Z-52, Kabab), take the hit on the broadside.  It's not at all something you think you should do, but there's a lot less ship and a much lower chance of a standard penetration.

Do it on the RU DDs against BBs as much as possible.

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14 minutes ago, Sirus_Patton said:

Here's a tip, unless you're already in something wide (Gearing, Z-52, Kabab), take the hit on the broadside.  It's not at all something you think you should do, but there's a lot less ship and a much lower chance of a standard penetration.

Well, it's either you eat 9/12 over-penetrating shells, or eat 3/12 penetrating shells from Montana.

The end result is usually the same.

usually... It's not entirely unusual for the AP do cause double penetration hits when chopping through the length of a DD.

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AP fusing on the Oktober allows you to erase DD's under 10km, it is glorious! By the same token, a DD player can outrun some BB's turrets, so really most BB's (except KSM secondaries), should be able to erase a DD that gets too close and sloppy. Otherwise, BB's would be easy pickings for DD's.

Edited by SmirkingGerbil
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I fail to see why BB AP vs DDs is a problem. A BB round striking a DD is mostly hitting empty space, but the shock to the whole structure is going to shake all sorts of things up around it, (assuming there isn't a 12" hole in a boiler somewhere). Requiring a BB to wait 25-30 seconds to switch to HE while dodging torp spam is idiotic.  

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This was covered in a recent topic already. If you hit the DD it should Pop. Nothing wrong about that.

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I happen to think that Flamu was wrong in this video.  First, it was complaints about citadels on DD's, so they were removed.  Now, some whiners are complaining about "major" (i.e. 30%) damage hits on DD's.  What's next?  Are people going to complain that BB's shouldn't be allowed to hit DD's at all?

I look at those 30% hits on DD's as the equivalent of citadel hits on larger ships, and think that they should remain.

 

22 minutes ago, SmirkingGerbil said:

AP fusing on the Oktober allows you to erase DD's under 10km, it is glorious! By the same token, a DD player can outrun some BB's turrets, so really most BB's (except KSM secondaries), should be able to erase a DD that gets too close and sloppy. Otherwise, BB's would be easy pickings for DD's.

I agree with this for the most part.

Very few DD's, if any, have the combination of fast turret traverse and a tight turning circle required to engage DDs at point blank range.  So they need the ability to make their hits count when they have the chance to get shots at them with their main guns.

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52 minutes ago, UrPeaceKeeper said:

What Flamu fails to explain is why all of a sudden this is NOW a problem and not two and a half years ago when in CBT Citadels were removed from DD's for the "same" reasons.  The reason is, because it's NOT a problem.  It never has been, and never will be.  Don't even begin to state "because radar" as that's a horrible excuse.  USN DD's didn't have real torps until just after OBT IIRC and were forced into those suicidal ranges just to use torpedoes.


DD's are high risk, high reward ships.  If you want to play at ranges where you will easily be detected, then you accept the possibility of being detected in a ship that has no armor, and no HP.  That, by it's very nature increases the chance of you going "pop" due to enemy fire.  The REWARD could be doing massive damage to your intended target.

I actually read this in your YouTube voice...

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1 minute ago, minor_correction said:

I actually read this in your YouTube voice...

 

LOL! :P  Scary isn't it?! =3

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3 hours ago, FireAndHEspam said:

Gearing is thinly armored and 3 shell hits should not do 18k to it.

Why not? 3 15-16 inch AP shells are capable of doing that much damage to a better armored Cruiser. And ONE DD torpedo is capable of doing almost as much damage.

DDs are going to take damage when they get hit, just like everyone else, so suck it up!

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