Jump to content
You need to play a total of 5 battles to post in this section.
dseehafer

SMS Brandenburg: The only pre-dreadnought that could fit at tier 3??

18 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

4,717
[HINON]
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
8,856 posts
3,680 battles

Greetings all,

 

Recently, we've had some discussions about pre-dreadnoughts. And the biggest concern seems to be that pre-dreadnoughts are hard to balance due to their lack of armament and that having any battleship at tier 2 is a balancing nightmare in and of itself. But what if there was a pre-dreadnought that didn't have to go into tier 2? What if there was a pre-dreadnought that was not limited to a 4-gun broadside? Well, there may be one...

 

The very first class of ocean-going battleship the Germans ever built was the Brandenburg class. They were also revolutionary in that they boasted a 3-turret 6-11" gun broadside, which has led some to classify them as "proto-dreadnoughts" because of their extraordinarily powerful firepower in comparison to the pre-dreadnoughts that came before and even after them. However, despite their awesome firepower the arrangement was considered a failure, the deck and superstructures would suffer blast damage when the center turret was fired and its arcs were very limited, to begin with. This is why the Germans built the more standard 4-gun pre-dreadnoughts after Brandenburg, despite the cut in firepower.

 

Image result for sms brandenburg

 

 

"Ok, so it has 2 more guns than any other pre-dreadnought. It still fires at least 2 fewer guns per broadside than any other current tier 3 battleship. I fail to see how Brandenburg is powerful enough to be tier 3."

 

Hold your horses, I'm not done yet...

 

To further increase her offensive dominance over pre-dreadnoughts like Mikasa in-game and to help her catch up to the offensive standards of the tier 3 dreadnoughts in-game, she also has 6 above-water 45cm torpedo tubes in swivel mounts, 3 per side, in the hull (just like Mutsu). 

 

Here is where they are located...

 

kENu8Pa.png

 

 

As long as we're on the topic of firepower we should cover her secondary firepower. As built she had 6x1 105mm and 8x1 88mm. That gives us a secondary battery of 7 guns per broadside, which is nothing special at either tier 2 or 3.

 

Before someone brings up the fact that the center turret guns are actually 5 calibers shorter than her other two turrets and therefore Brandenburg is a multi-caliber ship and can't work in-game I'll remind you that Kawachi is also multi-caliber. It would appear that as long as the guns are the same size WG will allow for differences in caliber.

 

Now, on to the defensive side... Brandenburg is smol, as in tiny. At only 379' long she's some 53' shorter than the Mikasa and is also shorter than many destroyers in-game. This means that she should be both super stealthy and semi-difficult to hit. However, she pays for it in hitpoints... displacing only 10,670t at full load. She is some 5,000t lighter than Mikasa, and is some  7,000t lighter than the next lightest tier 3 dreadnought. However! On top of being small, sneaky, and harder to hit than your average battleship, she's also massively well armored! She boasts a 400mm thick armor belt over her magazines which slims to 300mm at the bow and stern (have fun over-matching that bow armor Yamato:Smile-_tongue:) and slims to 200mm below the waterline. Her deck was 60mm thick with 60mm slopes. Her barbettes were protected by 300mm of armor and her turrets were 120mm thick everywhere except for the roof which was 50mm thick. Her upper hull was 42mm thick. To add to that, historically she also had 200mm of teak behind her 400mm belt armor, 300mm of teak behind her bow and stern belt armor and her barbettes were backed by 300mm teak, though wooden armor has not yet been counted or rendered in-game in any way. If it was counted, then Bismarck's belt would actually be 380mm thick as her belt armor was mounted on 60mm thick teak. Anyways.... so she's very well armored, more so than any other tier 3 battleship. In the end, her low hitpoints would only serve to balance her otherwise insane survivability. 

 

Realistically, she could probably be made to fit at tier 2 as well, but if there's any pre-dreadnought that has any chance of occupying a tier 3 slot, it's the Brandenburg class. 

 

Pros

More guns than Mikasa
Torpedoes
Very well armored
Small target (as battleships go, anyways)
Should boast an incredibly small turning circle

 

Cons 

Very low hitpoints
Very slow with a top speed of just 17kn
Fewer guns than other tier 3 battleships
"Meh" secondary battery

 

 

Related image

 

Image result for sms brandenburg armor

 

Image result for sms brandenburg armor

 

Related image

 

Image result for sms brandenburg armor

 

Image result for sms brandenburg

 

Image result for sms brandenburg

 

Image result for sms brandenburg

 

Related image

 

Related image

  • Cool 8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,710
[HINON]
Modder, In AlfaTesters, Beta Testers
6,498 posts
3,751 battles

I am curious, how did the center turret rotate to the other side? It appears that the barrels are too long to clear the superstructure, unless I am missing something.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
650 posts
1,632 battles
4 minutes ago, Doomlock said:

I am curious, how did the center turret rotate to the other side? It appears that the barrels are too long to clear the superstructure, unless I am missing something.

 

Based on this model pic, it appears there is basically a cutout in the bottom of that rear deckhouse.

 

3831427720_639a65c693_b.jpg

 

The center turret guns also have shorter barrel, 35 caliber instead of 40.

Edited by Middcore

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,717
[HINON]
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
8,856 posts
3,680 battles
7 minutes ago, Middcore said:

 

Based on this model pic, it appears there is basically a cutout in the bottom of that rear deckhouse.

 

-snip-

 

The center turret guns also have shorter barrel, 35 caliber instead of 40.

 

 

^ This

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
650 posts
1,632 battles
Just now, dseehafer said:

 

^ This

 

 

It is somewhat baffling to me that they chose to make accurate salvo firing of the full main battery basically impossible (since the shorter guns have a lower muzzle velocity and range) rather than just make the ship ~10% longer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,717
[HINON]
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
8,856 posts
3,680 battles
2 minutes ago, Middcore said:

 

It is somewhat baffling to me that they chose to make accurate salvo firing of the full main battery basically impossible (since the shorter guns have a lower muzzle velocity and range) rather than just make the ship ~10% longer.

 

Well, this is Germany's first ocean-going battleship. Quite simply, they may not yet have had a dockyard or a dry-dock large enough to make her any longer. That's just a guess, though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[LHG]
Members
1,659 posts
4,931 battles

Well here's the problem. 

The guns in the forward and aft twin turrets or the 40 caliber version of the 11 inch rifle, buuuutttt, the 11 inch rifles in the center turret are the 35 caliber version.  This gives the guns in the center turret different ballistics and range when compared to the longer rifles in the forward and the aft turrets.  What this means is the fire control systems could either plot the firing angle and elevation of the 40 caliber guns, or they could do the same for the 35 caliber guns, but not at the same time. 

The Semi-Dreadnoughts had a similar problem.  The sort of kind of solution was to establish two fire control systems, one for the heavier guns and one for the lighter guns.  Since it's really hard to tell the difference in the shell splashes from a 35 caliber gun and a 40 caliber gun, you had to alternate which battery was firing so the spotters could tell which shell splashes belonged to which gun which slowed down the rate of fire for both sets of guns. 

In practice what happened is that the 40 caliber guns were the only guns which had centralize fire control systems and the 35 caliber guns had to get by with the gunners sights in the turret itself which greatly limited the range and effectiveness of those guns. 

Hope that's helpful. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,717
[HINON]
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
8,856 posts
3,680 battles

Two of the ships were also given to Turkey before WWI, so they could be either a German or a Turkish premium!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,717
[HINON]
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
8,856 posts
3,680 battles
1 minute ago, BB3_Oregon_Steel said:

Well here's the problem. 

The guns in the forward and aft twin turrets or the 40 caliber version of the 11 inch rifle, buuuutttt, the 11 inch rifles in the center turret are the 35 caliber version.  This gives the guns in the center turret different ballistics and range when compared to the longer rifles in the forward and the aft turrets.  What this means is the fire control systems could either plot the firing angle and elevation of the 40 caliber guns, or they could do the same for the 35 caliber guns, but not at the same time. 

The Semi-Dreadnoughts had a similar problem.  The sort of kind of solution was to establish two fire control systems, one for the heavier guns and one for the lighter guns.  Since it's really hard to tell the difference in the shell splashes from a 35 caliber gun and a 40 caliber gun, you had to alternate which battery was firing so the spotters could tell which shell splashes belonged to which gun which slowed down the rate of fire for both sets of guns. 

In practice what happened is that the 40 caliber guns were the only guns which had centralize fire control systems and the 35 caliber guns had to get by with the gunners sights in the turret itself which greatly limited the range and effectiveness of those guns. 

Hope that's helpful. 

 

You must not have read the whole thread. I addressed this issue. It already exists with Kawachi. Historically she had 2x2 12/50s and 4x2 12/45s. In-game, she has all 12/45s. Wargaming would probably do the same for Brandenburg if they ever added her to the game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,517
[NSF]
Beta Testers
4,996 posts
5,978 battles

Personally, I think the Connecticut class could also easily fit at tier 3. They weigh almost the exact same as a South Carolina, go the same speed, have similar protection, etc.

 

She loses lose four guns, but is armed with the exact same 12"/45 Mark 5 rifles used on South Carolina, which means overall good ballistics. The mounts themselves were capable of 2-3 RPM, which could be adjusted to even out the lower number of barrels. The main difference between the two is really the secondary battery. The Connecticut's were armed with an additional four 8"/45 twin mounts, twelve 7"/44's in casemates, and another twenty casemated/open mounted 3"/50's which we are familiar with from the South Carolina ingame.

 

Gib.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[LHG]
Members
1,659 posts
4,931 battles
47 minutes ago, dseehafer said:

 

You must not have read the whole thread. I addressed this issue. It already exists with Kawachi. Historically she had 2x2 12/50s and 4x2 12/45s. In-game, she has all 12/45s. Wargaming would probably do the same for Brandenburg if they ever added her to the game.

 

Point taken.  However if you wanted the nerf all the Brandenburg's guns down to the 35 caliber variant you could approach it that way but then the problem is, could she really be competitive at that level.  Even the Kawachi's guns would be much better performers and she'd have more of them. Brandenburg would be more like a 2+ than a T3. 

Edited by BB3_Oregon_Steel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,717
[HINON]
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
8,856 posts
3,680 battles
7 minutes ago, BB3_Oregon_Steel said:

 

Possibly.  The problem with the Brandenburgs is that the guns were a shorter length because the longer guns would not have allowed the traverse properly in the amidships position.  With the Kawachi's it was intended that all the turrets receive the longer gun but they weren't available so the shorter gun was substituted.  I mean, if you wanted the nerf all the Brandenburgs guns down to the 35 caliber variant you could approach it that way but then the problem is, could she really be competitive at that level.  Even the Kawachi's guns would be much better performers and she'd have more of them. 

 

Well, the actual physical model of the Kawachi's guns in-game are still representative of their different calibers. Only the stats differ. If WG did the same for Brandenburg, it would be possible to give the center turret the same stats as the 40 caliber guns without changing the model. In either event, all 3 gun turrets will have to have the same performance statistics, no matter which caliber is chosen. Kawachi has more better-performing guns in either situation, but she lacks Brandenburg's nimbleness, tough armor, and torpedoes. Balance is not achieved through firepower alone. If it was, there is no way Myogi and Wyoming would occupy the same tier. Myogi is able to occupy the same tier because, although she doesn't boast as much firepower as Wyoming does, she has more hitpoints, more secondaries, and is much faster, just to name a few of her benefits.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[LHG]
Members
1,659 posts
4,931 battles
Just now, dseehafer said:

 

Well, the actual physical model of the Kawachi's guns in-game are still representative of their different calibers. Only the stats differ. If WG did the same for Brandenburg, it would be possible to give the center turret the same stats as the 40 caliber guns without changing the model. In either event, all 3 gun turrets will have to have the same performance statistics, no matter which caliber is chosen. Kawachi has more better-performing guns in either situation, but she lacks Brandenburg's nimbleness, tough armor, and torpedoes. Balance is not achieved through firepower alone. If it was, there is no way Myogi and Wyoming would occupy the same tier. Myogi is able to occupy the same tier because, although she doesn't boast as much firepower as Wyoming does, she has more hitpoints, more secondaries, and is much faster, just to name a few of her benefits.

 

Ok, I can buy that.  Nice job. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,717
[HINON]
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
8,856 posts
3,680 battles
Just now, BB3_Oregon_Steel said:

 

Ok, I can buy that.  Nice job. 

 

Happy to help!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,740
[INTEL]
Members
8,594 posts
25,749 battles
10 hours ago, dseehafer said:

Two of the ships were also given to Turkey before WWI, so they could be either a German or a Turkish premium!

 

What an excellent idea, a Turkish premium. Would add spice to the game for sure. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
166
[-AGW-]
Members
685 posts
3,886 battles

WG needs to put dseehafer on the payroll. "Director of Pre-Dreadnought Development" :cap_like:

 

I'm all for these funky old ships. This game is about having fun, and how can you not enjoy tooting around in something like the SMS Brandenburg. That turning radius would give the seal-clubbing CVs fits.

 


 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×