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Unicums playing low tier vs. potatoes playing high tier

Unicums playing low tier vs. potatoes playing high tier  

283 members have voted

  1. 1. Who is being less "ethical?"

    • Unicums who consciously know they are beating up on lesser skilled players are being less ethical. They often have more than a thousand games played compared to the players they are playing against.
      28
    • Potatoes who consciously know they are hurting their teams by not carrying their weight where the stakes are higher (in high credit cost matches) are being less ethical (because they often contribute to steamrolls that don't allow team mates to last long enough to recover credit costs).
      29
    • They are roughly equally being unethical.
      10
    • Neither are being unethical, they have every right to play whatever tier they want whenever they want as many times as they want.
      172
    • Bacon
      44

244 comments in this topic

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7 minutes ago, Sotaudi said:

Pastrami is to bacon what potato is to unicum, respectively.  :Smile_hiding:

Bite

Your

Tongue

 

You are dead to me.

:Smile_izmena:

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20 minutes ago, mofton said:

They certainly would.

Then again it's hard to argue that an Isokaze with CE, TAE etc. isn't an even greater threat to a herd of oblivious T3-T4 BB's than one without.

If people already have the advantages of experience, giving them 19-pt captains, and over powered premiums to use doesn't seem like a move in the right direction.

Well not really giving is it. Most players have to earn 19 point skippers. And if they have done so, don't they have the right to play them?

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My drum is looking rather beaten, but I still think this discussion is missing an essential concept, that goes beyond 'rules', one that shows humanity for fellow players. How many of you have played team sports and learnt to lend/accept a hand from an opposing team member to get up off the ground after a hard tackle? So you beat an inferior player, so what as long as you treat that other player decently, equally if you find yourself beaten by someone more skilled, accept defeat with good grace. Ethics does not cover this, and seemingly 90% of the replies to this thread ignore this sort of behaviour too..

Am I old fashioned? Probably, but I learnt my attitude from the game of Rugby, and playing up and downhill on rough and ready pitches, fairness didn't come from the rule book, ethics was never spoken of, but respecting your opposing players come what may, most certainly was, whether unicum or potatoe. But the anonymity of the internet has airbushed out this feature of team sports (and WOWS is an online team sport in its way).

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21 minutes ago, Xlap said:

This is outpotatoed. If you make a mistake or a bad move 10 times, 9 times it goes wrong and only one its good this is not outplay, its just lucky. 

I don't hold with elitism or mincing words. If a player sinks me he outplayed me. GG!

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1 hour ago, AraAragami said:

It does amuse me that people try to make "Playing low tiers when you're experienced" into a question of ethics.

 

How the hell am I expected to grind new lines if I can't play lower tiers? Are you going to give me all the gold I need to convert free XP to get to tier 10 in a new line if I'm only allowed to play tier 10 after I get a tier 10 ship?

True. It's not the norm for most people to play everything before going up a tier or two.  Most push a whole line, then move on to something else; i..e I'm the weird one in this.  Other than some T2-7 premiums, I'm still at T4/5 on tech tree ships.   It's my choice to grind that way, just as for you to do a whole line if you wish.

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Just now, IronWolfV said:

Well not really giving is it. Most players have to earn 19 point skippers. And if they have done so, don't they have the right to play them?

Certainly they are earned and certainly they can play them.

But taking that skipper, paying the gold or XP to re-train them on say Umikaze and clubbing someone with 50 games? I find that a little contemptible.

Certainly it's probably good fun for them, but fun at the potential expense of others. When I wrote 'give' I was thinking more along the line of OP premiums like Konig Albert and Imp. Nikolai.

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26 minutes ago, Xlap said:

Well, if you consider the literal meaning than yes.

Well, what other meaning should I consider for a word other than the thing it actually means?

26 minutes ago, Xlap said:

You will still sink enemys with a SBMM.

But you won't meet significantly worse or significantly better players with SBMM. That's the whole point of SBMM. Everyone roughly equally skilled. So if you start to win slightly more than half, you'll encounter stronger enemies and start losing more, and if you lose more than 50% you'll start seeing worse enemies and start to win more. And you'll be artificially kept at 50% and skill no longer matters because every match it's the same thing over and over and over again, players of your skill, never a challenge of going up against someone significantly stronger and never the feeling of power of going up against someone significantly worse.

What does skill matter at all if you can't use it to beat more players? What does improving matter if all you see is people of your own skill level, no matter what that skill level is? Why should I try to play well at all, because if I play like a potato I will get matched with potatoes and win 50% anyways?

SBMM doesn't reward skill. It punishes skill. "Hey! You dared to win 3 in a row! Here is a few teams of exceptional players in a row to bash your face in!" and rewards potato play. "Aww, you're so bad, here, have some braindead potatoes to play against, maybe then you can win."

That's just boring. I want to measure myself against whatever MM deems fit to throw at me.

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I don't think SBMM will work in WoWs.

SBMM does work in games with respawns, no tier structure and much larger player numbers to work with, but WoWs is none of that.

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31 minutes ago, mofton said:

They certainly would.

Then again it's hard to argue that an Isokaze with CE, TAE etc. isn't an even greater threat to a herd of oblivious T3-T4 BB's than one without.

If people already have the advantages of experience, giving them 19-pt captains, and over powered premiums to use doesn't seem like a move in the right direction.

I'm one of those people who guess you could say does the 'wide' approach of ship-grinding; i.e. I do all of tier <x> first, then go up, except for premiums.  If something goes on sale that I really like, I may grab it, but, my highest premiums are T7 (Atlanta, Nelson).  I use those for FXP for Missouri and stock modules.  

 

Anyway, I did the operation this past week, and got the 10 point captain.  Isokaze with 10 points might be considered a bit OP by some.  PM, LS, something, and concealment, at T4.  But I'm hardly a seal clubber at <600 PvP games.

 

 

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meh,  true seal clubbing is at t10 anyway if you are any good.  you are never bottom tiered.    Even spud like me can hold a decent wr at t10.  :D   

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4 minutes ago, MrDeaf said:

I don't think SBMM will work in WoWs.

SBMM does work in games with respawns, no tier structure and much larger player numbers to work with, but WoWs is none of that.

f7FdEdG.jpg

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9 minutes ago, Lert said:

That's just boring. I want to measure myself against whatever MM deems fit to throw at me.

SBMM = Starcraft 2 leagues.  Bronze plays Bronze, Diamond plays Diamond, and if a Bronze gets too good, he starts playing Silver instead; Diamonds end up in Grandmaster.  (been a while, so if I get it wrong, don't have a fit.  You get the idea, anyway!)

I have a feeling a lot of people in WoWS wouldn't actually like that, no matter how much they say they do.

Edited by mavfin87

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4 minutes ago, mavfin87 said:

Starcraft 2 leagues.

WoWS playerbase =/= Starcraft 2 playerbase. Dividing this playerbase up in any number of leagues isn't going to work.

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26 minutes ago, Quaffer said:

Bite

Your

Tongue

 

You are dead to me.

:Smile_izmena:

Pastrami is even better with pepper bacon.

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23 minutes ago, nuttybiscuit said:

So you beat an inferior player, so what as long as you treat that other player decently, equally if you find yourself beaten by someone more skilled, accept defeat with good grace.

Some people in this game have issues with the other way, though.  If the potato gets lucky or makes a good play (or both) and sinks the unicum, some get all pissy about that.

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20 minutes ago, Sotaudi said:

Pastrami is to bacon what potato is to unicum, respectively.  :Smile_hiding:

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Lert said:

WoWS playerbase =/= Starcraft 2 playerbase. Dividing this playerbase up in any number of leagues isn't going to work.

You missed the concept I meant, though.  If Bronze played Bronze, but then got better, then he won't be playing Bronze anymore, so he'll still be at 50% WR.  I didn't mean splitting up WoWS into groups like that for SBMM.

Edited by mavfin87

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Just now, mavfin87 said:

Some people in this game have issues with the other way, though.  If the potato gets lucky or makes a good play (or both) and sinks the unicum, some get all pissy about that.

I will admit, that if I get a trophy (sink a bona fide unicum), i do a hop skip and a dance, and screenshot it for my trophy room! But there are not that many genuine (purple) unicums (5% of the player base?). I can understand my defeated victim feeling I stretch the demands of tolerance..

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7 minutes ago, Lert said:

But you won't meet significantly worse or significantly better players with SBMM. That's the whole point of SBMM. Everyone roughly equally skilled. So if you start to win slightly more than half, you'll encounter stronger enemies and start losing more, and if you lose more than 50% you'll start seeing worse enemies and start win more. And you'll be articially kept at 50% and skill no longer matters because every match it's the same thing over and over and over again, players of your skill, never a challenge of going up against someone significantly stronger and never the feeling of power of going up against someone significantly worse.

You dont ned to have such a sensitive SBMM. Just a SBMM that is enough to separate the potatoes that ruin our games from the average and good players. 

 

If you take ranked as a example, where you have battles with players a few ranks up and a few ranks down. Or maybe like League o Legends ranks. 

 

7 minutes ago, Lert said:

That's just boring.

What i consider boring is lose a game in 5 min because my potato team died in 5 min.

 

What i cosider boring is win a game in 5 min because the enemy team is worse than bots. 

 

What i consider fun is a chalanging game. I can win or lose, but a challanging one. 

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I never feel bad playing my Gremy when I see a super unicum playing a Zuiho on the enemy team.

 

Oh wait, this doesn't apply to me anyway, as I'm not unicum like the OP.

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7 minutes ago, Xlap said:

You dont ned to have such a sensitive SBMM. Just a SBMM that is enough to separate the potatoes that ruin our games from the average and good players.

Why would I want that? I am light blue because I beat up on green and below players. If, say, you divide the playerbase into three: light blue and above, yellow to green and orange and below, then I am the food and have nothing to beat up on, instead I'll get beat up on every match. Likewise yellow players, who won't have orange and red ones to beat up on. I fought hard to be at the level I am, and if this happens I would be better off playing worse and dropping back to green.

I don't want to separate potatoes. They don't 'ruin' my game. They make my game.

Quote

What i consider boring is lose a game in 5 min because my potato team died in 5 min.

What i cosider boring is win a game in 5 min because the enemy team is worse than bots.

Then why are you playing this game? Honest question. If you can't find what you are apparently looking for here, if so much about this game is boring for you, why are you not playing something else that does offer what you are looking for?

<edit> I find this fascination with what other people do, how 'skilled' other players are, how other players play, utterly confusing. What does it matter what other players do? If you played well, feel good about it. If you didn't play well, try to figure out why. What does it matter what other people do? If what other people do is so important to you that you can't enjoy a game because of it, why are you playing a 'team' based game to begin with?

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If I worried so much about what was "ethical" or "unethical" I wouldn't even enjoy the game anymore. It's not something I can care about.

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7 minutes ago, mavfin87 said:

You missed the concept I meant, though.  If Bronze played Bronze, but then got better, then he won't be playing Bronze anymore, so he'll still be at 50% WR.  I didn't mean splitting up WoWS into groups like that for SBMM.

If WoWs didn't have a tiered structure, that might work, because each ship will be equal tier and have a roughly equal carrying capacity.

There is a huge difference in carrying capacity of any player, when that player is top tier vs. bottom tier.

 

For example, Shokaku can carry very hard in a T6-T8 match, but in a T8-10 match? hah, good luck.

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5 minutes ago, mavfin87 said:

I'm one of those people who guess you could say does the 'wide' approach of ship-grinding; i.e. I do all of tier <x> first, then go up, except for premiums.  If something goes on sale that I really like, I may grab it, but, my highest premiums are T7 (Atlanta, Nelson).  I use those for FXP for Missouri and stock modules.  

Anyway, I did the operation this past week, and got the 10 point captain.  Isokaze with 10 points might be considered a bit OP by some.  PM, LS, something, and concealment, at T4.  But I'm hardly a seal clubber at <600 PvP games.

I think your approach is fine, and I wouldn't accuse you of clubbing in a million years.

If you're grinding through a bunch of ships that's fine, and even though you're 'wide' at <600 games you're certainly not a clubber. I would be more concerned about people with 200+ Langley/Clemson/Umikaze games for instance. Playing a reasonable number of games in a T3-T5 ship is pretty acceptable. 

Personally I just want to get out of those tiers soon, it's not really meant for me is my impression, hence for my most recent grind I blasted through Iron Duke in 4 games while using the blueprints mission to avoid Bellerophon and Orion entirely.

 

Your Isokaze with a 10-pt captain is fine, especially if you are aiming to move on up and 23 games is hardly any. There's someone out there with >6,000 Isokaze games...

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