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Sabot_100

Is DF on the Cleveland a waste?

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The more I play the ship, the more I am convinced that taking DF is a waste of a consumable IN RANDOMs. You only see CVs in about half the games and when you do, they have all learned to stay away from you. I think I only use the DF about one in 10 games, and some of those times it is just overkill to take out an enemy scout. Hydro seems more routinely valuable. CVs will always assume you have DF (your normal AA is pretty good anyway) so will avoid you.

Am I missing some good tactics to bait the planes in? Seems sailing in the open with my fleet to provide AA cover just gets me focused. Especially by the time I can finally shoot back. My typical Cleveland tactics involve finding a convenient island to use the rainbow.

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I don't have the Cleveland specifically, but if I'm in a good AA ship and looking to shoot down planes, I stick close to targets that the CV player is probably not going to be able to resist making a play for. Then make them regret it. 

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It's been awhile since I played the Cleveland, but I loved using DFAA on it. It wasn't used to great effect very often for the reasons you specified, but occasionally wiping out three squadrons in a few seconds felt so good I needed to shower after.

 

As someone who has started playing BB's more and likes to stick close to Clevelands, I really want you to have DFAA.

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With both range upgrades, a 7.2k umbrella covers allot of ships. I usually follow the largest grp and discourage/punish CV's for going after them. A Def-AA will still scatter planes to the outer fringes of your coverage.

Edited by JohnnyO777

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One of the main strengths of the Cleve is its air defense capabilities, but any ship you run DF on can potentially be a waste if there's no CVs.

 

Still, i guess you could assume that CVs (that are in the know) wouldn't come near you in the first place, and would think you had it.

 

I can't prove this, but MM can be questionable with what upgrades you run. Try taking it off and see for yourself. I bet when you do, you'll find that you see CVs more often.

 

I won't base that off of anything other than try it and keep track for yourself.

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I fuse DFA in Cleveland. A waste only if no CVs, just like on any other ship.

If CVs dare come near you, they pay, dearly. What's wrong with that?

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It depends.  If you're top tier in a T6 game, DF is probably overkill in a Cleveland as even without DF her AA will generally own the planes from any CV at T6 and below..

However, with the way MM is right now, IME you get thrown into a lot of T8 games when you play T6.  In a T8 game the Cleveland's AA is still good, but it's no longer particularly exceptional -- there are other cruisers whose AA is comparable.  So T8 CVs will definitely test a Cleveland's AA bubble and you can do some good for your team with DF.

Personally, I usually keep DF on my Cleveland and when needed I use the Cat Fighter as a sort of poor man's hydro.  The cat fighter can't spot ships in smoke, but it does a pretty good job of spotting incoming torps.

 

 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Sabot_100 said:

The more I play the ship, the more I am convinced that taking DF is a waste of a consumable IN RANDOMs. You only see CVs in about half the games and when you do, they have all learned to stay away from you. I think I only use the DF about one in 10 games, and some of those times it is just overkill to take out an enemy scout. Hydro seems more routinely valuable. CVs will always assume you have DF (your normal AA is pretty good anyway) so will avoid you.

Am I missing some good tactics to bait the planes in? Seems sailing in the open with my fleet to provide AA cover just gets me focused. Especially by the time I can finally shoot back. My typical Cleveland tactics involve finding a convenient island to use the rainbow.

If you're playing in a campaign where you need to kill 35-40 ships, it's useful. Otherwise, not

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Division with a CV and you're guaranteed to fight against one every time.

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Personal opinion, i'd keep it just for the panic effect.  I mean after so long I'm not half bad at avoiding drops anymore, but you'll still run into the scenario where avoiding the torps or bombs will open you up to a broadside from a close in cruiser or BB.  Or if you're hunting down a DD and can't afford to avoid his torps plus whatever the CV has thrown into the mix.  Defensive fire makes it so the spread opens up, sometimes reduces how much angle or evasion you'll have to give.

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Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

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What  a great question.

Carriers in a match are not and miss.

Destroyers are guaranteed.

Your hydro may be of limited use because of range.

Being up tiered often, will make it meh vs aircraft w/o DF?

 

All good points and may depend more of play style. 

 

I run defensive fire and 2 catapult fighters. 

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1 hour ago, Sabot_100 said:

and some of those times it is just overkill to take out an enemy scout.

Don't underestimate the value of taking out a scout.  I was in a coop battle last night in a ship with mediocre AA (i.e., not a Cleveland) and no DF capturing the B base.  Despite being behind an island where the enemy ships had no line of sight, I was continually under fire because the ship we sunk at B had a spotter up at the time and I was constantly spotted.  I dodged most of them but got reset a couple of times.  There was a point at which two ships had joined me in B, and we were within seconds of capping, but the counter kept getting reset right before the capture completed because the enemy had shifted fire to them.  That lone spotter was responsible for aiding in at least six resets before we capped.

Between situations like that where you are under fire because some random spotter/fighter from a dead ship is keeping you lit or from being spotted on the far side of an island from the ship that launched it, I don't regret having not switched out DF.  I don't see it as overkill but, rather, ensuring that I deny the enemy vision as quickly as possible.

 

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Just like 'map awareness' will get you further in battles,

WOWS awareness also helps.  Like seeing there are 'shoot down 20 planes' missions out there for Oct. Revolution..

And there are rentals for Shiny Horse, and the Okitakami.

I had the displeasure of grinding a zuiho last night -- EVERY opponent was an AS Bogue.

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6 minutes ago, Sotaudi said:

Don't underestimate the value of taking out a scout. 

Typically the Cleveland AA will take out any scout of any tier in range eventually. DF just makes it NOW. Unfortunately, the planes don't have to be in AA range to see you.

I can't see a reason to fully AA spec a Cleveland UNLESS I routinely divisioned with a CV.  The most recent time I used my DF was late game when the CV probably thought I had been beat up enough to nullify most of my AA. It did its job but would hydro have saved me/allies in multiple previous games?

As others have mentioned, I might have to assume more of an escort role to guard the friendlies better. Still might mean you shoot down few planes as the CV looks elsewhere and your damage totals will drop.

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2 minutes ago, AVR_Project said:

Like seeing there are 'shoot down 20 planes' missions out there for Oct. Revolution.

I took the Cleveland out multiple times based on that and I think I got 3 kills max.  Like IJN DDs, doing well with Cleveland AA relies on potato enemies. I guess I haven't fought any lately.

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3 minutes ago, Sabot_100 said:

Typically the Cleveland AA will take out any scout of any tier in range eventually. DF just makes it NOW.

I am not saying that it is always better to take DF than Hydro.  I just am trying to point out that there is a lot more to it than it being "overkill" when there are no CVs.  The difference between "eventually" and "NOW" can be the difference in taking that spotter out while you can see it, and it getting far enough away that you no longer see it but it can see you.  It can be the difference in that enemy too far away from you to see you himself shaving off that last few hit points you had left and you surviving.  It may save a teammate for the same reasons.  As in my example, it could be the difference in getting the cap and getting reset multiple times, and so on.

Hydro is good as well, but it, too, is situational.  Which one is the one that will be most useful depends on factors you cannot determine before you get into the match.

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I bought back Cleveland exclusively for Scenario play where every one has guaranteed carriers, the Def. AA is useful there.

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1 hour ago, Sabot_100 said:

I took the Cleveland out multiple times based on that and I think I got 3 kills max.  Like IJN DDs, doing well with Cleveland AA relies on potato enemies. I guess I haven't fought any lately.

If you want to see CVs...  You must bring one.  I did those missions on my 'Accident_Sorry' account on the Zuiho, finishing the grind up to the Ryujo.  On my main account, I used the AS Bogue. 

Luckily, I used the Cleveland in Scenarios with a good team and won the IJN 10 point captain (and a day of Premium) -- for the Ryujo.

On the second account, I knew exactly where to grind, (Cleveland and Ryujo) for the most effective T6 ships.  I picked up some premium ships for it on sale (Dunker and Indy), and if I get a deal on the Okitakami, I'll bite since I'm grinding up to the Budyonny next.   I've got all these on the main account, and I can make them work.

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3 hours ago, Lert said:

Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

 

To add to this, Tier VI is right smack in the middle of the more populated CVs.

Jphh9NI.jpg

 

Top 13 CVs in NA server, sorted from highest to lowest in "Battles" played.  Tier VI Cleveland can expect to see everyone of these except Tier IV and Tier IX+ CVs.  Everything else, the very dangerous Hiryu, Saipan, Shokaku, Kaga, etc, are all within the MM Tier range of Cleveland.  Hell, there's actually more justification to DROP AA Builds and Defensive Fire once you are at Tier IX-X because there's actually fewer CVs as you get into those tiers.

 

I keep my AA Build with Defensive Fire on Cleveland at all times.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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I personally prefer hydro with mine.  I don't run an AA spec captain, so I rely on its reputation as a plane killer to keep planes away.

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On ‎10‎/‎13‎/‎2017 at 10:50 PM, crzyhawk said:

I personally prefer hydro with mine.  I don't run an AA spec captain, so I rely on its reputation as a plane killer to keep planes away.

I would say "Noted," but I don't play CVs.  :Smile_teethhappy:

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Defensive Fire only comes into play rarely. Whereas you will constantly be hounded/hunting DD's.

Besides, at its tier, it can swat planes down just fine without the consumable. At higher tiers, it is still enough to take out several planes per squadron as long as you focus fire on each squadron specifically.

Just get the secondary and AA range up as well as the secondary and AA reload/dmg upgrade skill and you should not have to worry that much. At higher tiers, some bombers will be able to get through, but unless you are just unlucky or lack the response time to dodge the torps, you yourself should be safe from most air attacks.

NOW, on the off chance that a CV does show up in a match and you have Defensive Fire equipped, just try to keep the BB's corralled within your 6km AA range... <i'll wish you luck on that feat...

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