Japanese Carriers carried LESS aircraft than US Full sized Carriers.

[AngryPitSnipe]

Japanese carriers in this game carry more aircraft and can put more squadrons in the air at a time than US carriers in the same tier.  In the real world, Japanese Carriers carried less aircraft (as much as 40%-60% less) than full sized US carriers.

The Japanese Fleet carriers were all converted from other ships and had horrible below deck (Hanger) storage. Few if any of the Japanese carrier planes had folding wings. The USN could cram twice as many aircraft (and operate them) into a Essex class than any Japanese Carrier could operate with.

Japanese had very bad damage control. When their Aircraft Carriers caught fire, well, start swimming crew.

Time to re-work the aircraft balance in this game.

[saru_richard]

just now you realize WG's gigantic hard on for IJN CV's?

[GhostSwordsman]

Just off Wikipedia( and the WoWs wiki):

Hiryu: 64(+9 spare) for a total of 73. Hiryu's in-game hangar space is 72, if I'm recalling correctly. 72 according to the wiki.

Kaga: 90 total(72 +19 spare). Kaga has a hangar capacity in-game of 85.

Shokaku: 72(+12 spare). According to the WoWs Wiki, Shokaku has a hangar capacity of 72.

Taiho: 65 in combat(84 as designed). I'm guessing that Taiho could carry up to 84 aircraft total. Taiho has a hangar space of 83 in-game, according to the wiki.

 

Edit: Will update later with info on USN Fleet carriers according to Wikipedia and the WoWs wiki.

Ranger: 86(max), 76(normal). Ranger has a hangar capacity of 73 in-game.

Lexington: 78. In-game Lexington carries 72 total.

Enterprise: 90. In-game Enterprise fields 96.

Essex: Listed as 90-100 on Wikipedia. In-game Essex carries 90 aircraft.

Midway: Wikipedia says up to 130 aircraft in the 1940s to 1950s. In-game Midway's hangar capacity is 136.

 

Now, what was that about IJN CVs getting more aircraft hangar capacity in-game?

[anonym_Hf93Jbjm9WjT]

fewer (i'll show myself out..)

[Edselman]

It's probably for balance purposes. If the game was completely historically accurate, the American ships would be very over-powered: like Nikolai times 10.

[Fog_Heavy_Cruiser_Takao]

Obvious USN merica post is obvious.

There are so many things wrong with your post OP I care only to put out one correction for now. You state that ALL IJN aircraft carriers are conversion carriers, which of course couldn't be father from the truth. Did they have conversions? Yes, But even these did not mean they had terrible hanger size. Plus if you care to look USN has a larger hanger capacity in game for a majority of there IJN tier counter part. (Hak-100 to Midway-148)

[yamato6945]

According to WW2 database Kaga could carry 91 aircraft total 

https://ww2db.com/ship_spec.php?ship_id=9

 

They also have Saratoga at the same number 

https://ww2db.com/ship_spec.php?ship_id=315

Some did carry fewer Shokaku which was built from the keel up as a CV carried 84 

https://ww2db.com/ship_spec.php?ship_id=A23

 

Compared with Enterprise at 90

 https://ww2db.com/ship_spec.php?ship_id=A296

 

Yes Japan had ships that were conversions so did we Langley Lexington and Saratoga Most of the Escort and Light carriers are examples 

 

[Doomlock]

2 hours ago, AngryPitSnipe said:

The Japanese Fleet carriers were all converted from other ships and had horrible below deck (Hanger) storage.

 

9 minutes ago, Fog_Heavy_Cruiser_Takao said:

You state that ALL IJN aircraft carriers are conversion carriers, which of course couldn't be father from the truth. Did they have conversions? Yes, But even these did not mean they had terrible hanger size.

 

Takao is right. Out of all the carriers in game...only Kaga and Zuiho were true conversions. Naga was converted from the hull of a battleship, Zuiho was converted from a submarine support ship. All the rest are built up as carriers from the keel up. 

 

Hōshō, first purpose built aircraft carrier commissioned into service in the world. 

Ryūjō, built to take advantage of a loophole in the WNT.

Hiryū, purpose built fleet carrier; meant to work side by side with carrier Sōryū.

Shōkaku, purpose built fleet carrier; the best class of carrier the IJN built.

Taihō, purpose built armored fleet carrier; sunk on its first combat mission.

Hakuryū, an improved Taihō class.

[TheKrimzonDemon]

1 hour ago, saru_richard said:

just now you realize WG's gigantic hard on for IJN CV's?

And he apparently doesn't understand "balance", "fairness", or "it's just a game", either.

[Umikami]

Popcorn, Popcorn, get your popcorn right here!

Lots of fresh hot butter, and all the salt you could ever want!

Popcorn, Popcorn, get your popcorn right here ...

[Crucis]

44 minutes ago, TheKrimzonDemon said:

And he apparently doesn't understand "balance", "fairness", or "it's just a game", either.

Apparently, the WOWS devs don't either, considering how crappy USN CVs are up to the Essex (IIRC).  (Well, maybe the Langley is OK...)

 

[SgtBeltfed]

Of the IJN  fleet carriers, only Akagi and Kaga were conversions (Shinano would also count if she was ever loaded out as a fleet carrier) ,

Ryujo, Hiryu, Soryu, Shokaku, Zuikaku and Taiho were all purpose built fleet carriers. along with the Unryu class(mostly unfinished at the end of the war).

 

The US Navy was in the same situation, Lexington and Saratoga we both conversions. The Yorktown's, Ranger, Wasp, Essex's and Midway's were all purpose built, The Independence's were ordered as Cleveland's but reordered as CV's and the Saipan's were ordered as modifications of the Baltimore. They're something between a conversion and a purpose built CV.

 

As far as not having folding wings, only the A6M5 truly lacked them (the A6M2 had folding wing tips to fit the deck elevators, the Japanese basically left the wingtips off on the A6M5). Everything else that served the IJN on aircraft carriers in WWII had them. Some IJN CV's didn't have hangers tall enough to fold or unfold the wings while in the hangar, however they went below decks is how they stayed. Nothing the Japanese built folded up as tight as the war built Grumman planes.

 

With the US Navy, only the Brewster F2A Buffalo didn't have folding wings, and it's wartime career with the US Navy was mercifully short.

 

As far as damage control, the biggest difference between the US Navy and IJN was the US Navy was better equipped, and US Navy CV's had side mounted doors going into the hangars even when there was no deck edge elevators allowing the crew to push the aircraft overboard in case of a fire, IJN CV's had to move the aircraft to the flight deck in order to send them over the side.

 

[AngryPitSnipe]

52 minutes ago, Doomlock said:

 

 

Takao is right. Out of all the carriers in game...only Kaga and Zuiho were true conversions. Naga was converted from the hull of a battleship, Zuiho was converted from a submarine support ship. All the rest are built up as carriers from the keel up. 

 

Hōshō, first purpose built aircraft carrier commissioned into service in the world. 

Ryūjō, built to take advantage of a loophole in the WNT.

Hiryū, purpose built fleet carrier; meant to work side by side with carrier Sōryū.

Shōkaku, purpose built fleet carrier; the best class of carrier the IJN built.

Taihō, purpose built armored fleet carrier; sunk on its first combat mission.

Hakuryū, an improved Taihō class.

The Carriers you state as purpose built were not ready for the decisive battles of WW2.  Midway had Kaga Akagi Soryu Hiryu All sumk when they caught fire. Kaga and Kagi were conversions, Soryu and Huryu were more like Princeton class. After the battles of Midway and Coral sea  Guadalcanal, Santa cruise, Marianas, the Japanese ran out of trained pilots. By leyte Gulf. they were only loading a small number of planes on their new Carriers.

If the Japanese only put ten planes on a deck of a CV for it's only battle, and no pilots (Decoy)  then how many Wikipedia dreams that they could cram on a CV with the wings non folding is irrelevant. 

Nobody in the Military or our government utilizes Wikipedia as a reliable source. 

A spokesperson for our DVA said to me three weeks ago- "anybody can make anything up and post it on Wikipedia- it is worthless as a source of facts"..

[AngryPitSnipe]

1 hour ago, TheKrimzonDemon said:

And he apparently doesn't understand "balance", "fairness", or "it's just a game", either.

Over 4,000 posts? get a life kid, maybe a job too.

[AngryPitSnipe]

2 hours ago, GhostSwordsman said:

Just off Wikipedia( and the WoWs wiki):

Hiryu: 64(+9 spare) for a total of 73. Hiryu's in-game hangar space is 72, if I'm recalling correctly. 72 according to the wiki.

Kaga: 90 total(72 +19 spare). Kaga has a hangar capacity in-game of 85.

Shokaku: 72(+12 spare). According to the WoWs Wiki, Shokaku has a hangar capacity of 72.

Taiho: 65 in combat(84 as designed). I'm guessing that Taiho could carry up to 84 aircraft total. Taiho has a hangar space of 83 in-game, according to the wiki.

 

Edit: Will update later with info on USN Fleet carriers according to Wikipedia and the WoWs wiki.

Ranger: 86(max), 76(normal). Ranger has a hangar capacity of 73 in-game.

Lexington: 78. In-game Lexington carries 72 total.

Enterprise: 90. In-game Enterprise fields 96.

Essex: Listed as 90-100 on Wikipedia. In-game Essex carries 90 aircraft.

Midway: Wikipedia says up to 130 aircraft in the 1940s to 1950s. In-game Midway's hangar capacity is 136.

 

Now, what was that about IJN CVs getting more aircraft hangar capacity in-game?

Wikipedia is rubbish kid. You listen to all that fake news instead of real vets and people with degrees in Military history.Lexington, Yorktown and Essex classes at some point had close to 100 aircraft taken aboard at various times in their career. Most US CVs operated with at least 80 when they left port, the Japanese Carriers simply couldn't handle more than about sixty- of which they rarely even loaded that number do to aircraft and pilot shortages.

The IJN was gutted at Midway They lost their best pilots there. The IJN Carriers never operated at some make-believe capacity after that anyhow. They also ran out of fuel around the middle of 1944. They got all their fuel prewar from the U.S.

No fuel, no planes , no pilots, I guess the Japanese Carriers didn't carry many planes at all.

[GhostSwordsman]

35 minutes ago, AngryPitSnipe said:

A spokesperson for our DVA said to me three weeks ago- "anybody can make anything up and post it on Wikipedia- it is worthless as a source of facts"..

Yes, but Wikipedia also has a staff that goes through and checks the articles to make sure the correct info is displayed. And they site all of their sources at the bottom of the page. Ever notice that?

26 minutes ago, AngryPitSnipe said:

Wikipedia is rubbish kid. You listen to all that fake news instead of real vets and people with degrees in Military history.Lexington, Yorktown and Essex classes at some point had close to 100 aircraft taken aboard at various times in their career. Most US CVs operated with at least 80 when they left port, the Japanese Carriers simply couldn't handle more than about sixty- of which they rarely even loaded that number do to aircraft and pilot shortages.

The IJN was gutted at Midway They lost their best pilots there. The IJN Carriers never operated at some make-believe capacity after that anyhow. They also ran out of fuel around the middle of 1944. They got all their fuel prewar from the U.S.

No fuel, no planes , no pilots, I guess the Japanese Carriers didn't carry many planes at all.

Look, all I'm saying is: Wikipedia lists 'x' information, and Wargaming has 'y' information. Those two line up, darn near perfectly, and Wargaming certainly has much more reliable sources than any civilian sitting at their computer would readily have.

Besides, you just sound like some old salty guy that's getting triggered at there being any semblance of balance between Japan and the US in a game. Do you not like the fact that pixel boats on a screen that resemble old warships of the US's enemy in WWII can rival pixels that resemble old warships of the USN? (I mean, the IJN lost the war and we won, so that automatically makes anything and everything American superior, right? /s) News flash, the war is over, and has been over for nearly a century. It's time to let go of any grudges and move on. What's in the past is in the past and we can respect it while still enjoying this game. And on that note, this game is going to be balanced to preserve playability, so regardless if the USN could cram twice as many planes into an Essex than the design called for, it won't get any more planes than Wargaming deems necessary to make it balanced against it's other nation counterpart(in this case, the Japanese CV).

[Dictonary]

You can blame people like me for keeping Wikipedia in tip top shape.

[Doomlock]

12 minutes ago, AngryPitSnipe said:

The Carriers you state as purpose built were not ready for the decisive battles of WW2.  Midway had Kaga Akagi Soryu Hiryu All sumk when they caught fire. Kaga and Kagi were conversions, Soryu and Huryu were more like Princeton class. After the battles of Midway and Coral sea  Guadalcanal, Santa cruise, Marianas, the Japanese ran out of trained pilots. By leyte Gulf. they were only loading a small number of planes on their new Carriers.

If the Japanese only put ten planes on a deck of a CV for it's only battle, and no pilots (Decoy)  then how many Wikipedia dreams that they could cram on a CV with the wings non folding is irrelevant. 

Nobody in the Military or our government utilizes Wikipedia as a reliable source. 

A spokesperson for our DVA said to me three weeks ago- "anybody can make anything up and post it on Wikipedia- it is worthless as a source of facts"..

Doesn't change anything I said because you said: 

Quote

The Japanese Fleet carriers were all converted from other ships and had horrible below deck (Hanger) storage.

And I quite clearly showed that only two were. I didn't use wikipedia as my source, I used a book.

 

The Japanese had the best carrier force in the world at the outbreak of WWII in the Pacific. A strong, powerful force of highly trained pilots and crew which had years of experience. Yes Kaga and Akagi are conversions, but they did not all sink because, "They caught fire". They sunk because of concentrated air attack, and poor timing on aircraft servicing. Kaga and Akagi were jumped by divebombers, and Soryu shortly after. 

 

To your comment about Soryu and Hiryu, do you honestly expect me to believe you after that ridiculous comment? First off, no such class of, "Princeton-class carriers" exists.

Secondly, you are trying to tell me that this: 

USS Princeton (CVL-23), Independence-class light carrier.

 

Equates to this: 

Hiryu, fleet carrier.

 

Independence class dimensions: Length: 622 ft; width: 109 ft. Aircraft: 33.

Hiryu dimensions: Length: 746 ft; width: 88 ft. Aircraft: 64.

 

Yeah, more like my foot.

 

 

 

19 minutes ago, AngryPitSnipe said:

Lexington, Yorktown and Essex classes at some point had close to 100 aircraft taken aboard at various times in their career. Most US CVs operated with at least 80 when they left port, the Japanese Carriers simply couldn't handle more than about sixty- of which they rarely even loaded that number do to aircraft and pilot shortages.

The IJN was gutted at Midway They lost their best pilots there. The IJN Carriers never operated at some make-believe capacity after that anyhow. They also ran out of fuel around the middle of 1944. They got all their fuel prewar from the U.S.

No fuel, no planes , no pilots, I guess the Japanese Carriers didn't carry many planes at all.

 

Aircraft complement:

USS Saratoga (Lexington class): 78. 

USS Enterprise (Yorktown class): 90.

USS Yorktown (CV-10) (Essex class): 90-100.

 

Akagi: 91. http://combinedfleet.com/ships/akagi

Kaga: 90. http://combinedfleet.com/ships/kaga

Soryu: 71. http://combinedfleet.com/ships/soryu

Hiryu: 73. http://combinedfleet.com/ships/hiryu

Shokaku: 84. http://combinedfleet.com/ships/shokaku

Zuikaku: 84. http://combinedfleet.com/ships/zuikaku

Taiho: 65 in combat, 84 designed. http://combinedfleet.com/ships/taiho

 

 

Also this line here:

Quote

The IJN was gutted at Midway They lost their best pilots there. The IJN Carriers never operated at some make-believe capacity after that anyhow.

So, the pilots of the fleet carriers Shokaku and Zuikaku were not their best pilots as well? Despite them partaking in the Attack on Pearl Harbor? Also, apparently you have never heard of the battles of the Eastern Solomans or Santa Cruz. Shokaku and Zuikaku were the forefront of the IJN carrier force after Midway, and they did a great job at it considering the circumstances.

 

 

 

All in all most everything you have said concerning the IJN carrier force has been in error. I have provided links to where your insinuations about the number of aircraft carried are debunked. 

Fair winds and following seas captains. 

[yamato6945]

Some IJN CV's operated close to 90 take Kaga again for example 

https://ww2db.com/ship_spec.php?ship_id=A9

https://www.militaryfactory.com/ships/detail.asp?ship_id=IJN-Kaga
And if you wanna talk Historians 

http://combinedfleet.com/ships/kaga

again all 90 

and in case you doubt kaiguns credentials all historians 

http://www.combinedfleet.com/whoami.htm

[GhostSwordsman]

1 minute ago, Doomlock said:

I didn't use wikipedia as my source, I used a book.

I'm sorry Doom, I must have struck a nerve with the OP since I just jumped to Wikipedia as it's an easily accessible, and fairly accurate source(despite what many would still have you believe), and just compared them to what shows on the Warships wiki for what we have in-game.

[Fog_Repair_Ship_Akashi]

Dam OP. You done goofed. @Doomlock knows his history, don't try an argue with him.

[Doomlock]

1 minute ago, GhostSwordsman said:

I'm sorry Doom, I must have struck a nerve with the OP since I just jumped to Wikipedia as it's an easily accessible, and fairly accurate source(despite what many would still have you believe), and just compared them to what shows on the Warships wiki for what we have in-game.

No worries. I know my IJN. I have a thick old book on them too. 

[tcbaker777]

1 minute ago, Fog_Repair_Ship_Akashi said:

Dam OP. You done goofed. @Doomlock knows his history, don't try an argue with him.

yet watch the OP try to and fail miserably

[Fog_Repair_Ship_Akashi]

Just now, Doomlock said:

No worries. I know my IJN. I have a thick old book on them too. 

Dammit I've always wanted that book.

[Fog_Repair_Ship_Akashi]

Just now, tcbaker777 said:

yet watch the OP try to and fail miserably

Should be entertaining though, no?