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Akeno017

Battleships and citadels.

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Is it me, or is basically every high tier battleship now essentially immune, or close to immune to being citadeled?

German Battleships, British Battleships, US BBs.

I would like to see a public test where all bbs have pre-change Iowa citadels or something similar, and see how'd it change gameplay, as the game seems to have shifted to underwater citadels for all bbs.

Curious on others thoughts of this change, or something along the lines.

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USN bbs can still be citted easily when showing too much side, they just dont get hit with 4-6 cits per volley like before which was insane.

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Rarely do I get Cit Hits on German BB's but it does happen.  Iowa, Mo, NC, and Monty are fairly easy to cit in a broadside.  British not so much, IJN a little easier.

I'd probably rate it easiest to hardest:

1: USN

2: IJN

3: British

4: German

 

Definitely not immune unless you're sailing a CL trying to get cits on BB's

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23 minutes ago, Akeno017 said:

Is it me, or is basically every high tier battleship now essentially immune, or close to immune to being citadeled?

German Battleships, British Battleships, US BBs.

I would like to see a public test where all bbs have pre-change Iowa citadels or something similar, and see how'd it change gameplay, as the game seems to have shifted to underwater citadels for all bbs.

Curious on others thoughts of this change, or something along the lines.

 

I can tell you how it would change gameplay, because I played when all the high tier BBs besides NC had high citadels... 

 

It was stagnant bow camping, because if you turned, you died. All BBs hid in the back and did nothing. The brave ones that moved up got their angle wrong and POOF! Gone. It was awful. 

 

You don't need to citadel something to do massive damage, a bunch of pens does just as well. 

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18 minutes ago, GhostSwordsman said:

Meanwhile, IJN BBs continue to be the only remaining BBs to be easily citadeled.

Well how else are you going to balance them? They have the best guns in the game. (not being snarky just pointing it out).

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Punched three cits into a GK in my Mizzou 2 weeks ago, but that was at spittin' distance. US is definitely easiest to reliably cit and German is hardest.

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19 minutes ago, GhostSwordsman said:

Meanwhile, IJN BBs continue to be the only remaining BBs to be easily citadeled.

Remove laser beam guns and lolpens from Yamato, and you can have your lowered citadel. 

 

But that would completely ruin the line, so let's not do that. 

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11 minutes ago, Fog_Repair_Ship_Akashi said:

Well how else are you going to balance them? They have the best guns in the game. (not being snarky just pointing it out).

 

I would agree with tiers 5-8 and likely 10.  The Izumo though?  I have read in several places that the guns are accurate and powerful, but that couldn't be further from the truth in my experience.  I have probably played 40-50 games in it and every single game since being stock (where the guns actually seemed much better) I have properly aimed shells constantly landing all around the target for zero hits or alternate over pens and bounces on the same bloody target at the same bloody angle.  My blood is starting to boil just typing this because the guns have been so frustrating on the Izumo lol.  I have tier 8 or higher in every BB line aside from the RN, so I'm used to BB RNG.  This ship is just something else entirely.

Edited by AspiringCodger

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Some tweaks to the INJ BBs are in order...I was going for the Yamato but like it's the only one that can eat massive cits anymore so now I have Monty and Kurfurst I'll be going British lol

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British and German BB's seem most susceptible to citadels around the 12-18km mark, due to the plunging fire of the shells.

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I agree. Some people bring up the “pens do damage” thingy, but I want insta deletion when you choose to sail broadside below 10kms... Arent we playing tier 10?

 

So raise the citadel of the Montana and Conq. I think GK is fine the way it is.

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29 minutes ago, AspiringCodger said:

 

I would agree with tiers 5-8 and likely 10.  The Izumo though?  I have read in several places that the guns are accurate and powerful, but that couldn't be further from the truth in my experience.  I have probably played 40-50 games in it and every single game since being stock (where the guns actually seemed much better) I have properly aimed shells constantly landing all around the target for zero hits or alternate over pens and bounces on the same bloody target at the same bloody angle.  My blood is starting to boil just typing this because the guns have been so frustrating on the Izumo lol.  I have tier 8 or higher in every BB line aside from the RN, so I'm used to BB RNG.  This ship is just something else entirely.

Izumo's guns are a better version of Amagi's guns. Higher muzzle velocity, which equals more penetration at ranges. 

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I find that German BBs and Brits, while they are hard to citadel, take ridiculous damage from .33 Pens at medium to close ranges, even bow-on. Bow-on Iowa and Missou are tougher, but show some skirt and *pop*. 

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22 minutes ago, Doomlock said:

Izumo's guns are a better version of Amagi's guns. Higher muzzle velocity, which equals more penetration at ranges. 

 

Cool.  The guns performed MUCH better for me in the Amagi.  I don't know why, I don't know if other people have experienced the same thing, but I do know that I enjoyed the guns in the Amagi and am tempted to smash the keyboard every game I play in the Izumo.

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1 hour ago, Show_Me_Your_Cits said:

 

I can tell you how it would change gameplay, because I played when all the high tier BBs besides NC had high citadels... 

 

It was stagnant bow camping, because if you turned, you died. All BBs hid in the back and did nothing. The brave ones that moved up got their angle wrong and POOF! Gone. It was awful. 

 

You don't need to citadel something to do massive damage, a bunch of pens does just as well. 

I also played then, and did the full Iowa grind and a bunch of battles with Montana and Missouri.

The bow camping meta went before the citchanges iirc.

I'm fully aware of this, but I feel that the "lowered citadel" just seems to be a standard for battleships now, such as Conquerer, Kurfurst and now Montana drag away from I see a battleship as.

Although I can understand where your coming from with the bow camping coming back, I feel that this would be due to people not knowing how to angle effectively, and knowing when to disengage and re-orientate and position, something I remember quite well needing for the old Iowa, which I enjoyed playing.

Edited by Akeno017

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4 hours ago, Fog_Repair_Ship_Akashi said:

Well how else are you going to balance them? They have the best guns in the game. (not being snarky just pointing it out).

 

4 hours ago, Show_Me_Your_Cits said:

Remove laser beam guns and lolpens from Yamato, and you can have your lowered citadel. 

 

But that would completely ruin the line, so let's not do that. 

In all honesty, it doesn't really bother me. It just seems strange that they'd be left out of, at the very least, an adjustment to make them more comfortable to play(Kii being the most recent example of how bad IJN citadels can be).

As for best guns, USN 16" guns from Iowa and Montana, I'd argue, rival IJN 16" guns pretty well. Yamato's a different issue entirely(and honestly I don't think any changes need to be made to Yamato, she's strong enough as is).

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I too found Izumo to be an outlier in the IJN BB line.  I don't know if it has worse sigma or what, but I could not get hits with Izumo like I did with Amagi.  Her guns seemed much less dependable, and that made her hard to play.  According to the stats, she is almost indistinguishable from Iowa in win rate, a little better in damage, and otherwise basically the same.  However for me, I found her harder to play.

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The problem is that citadel hits in this game are far too powerful, across the board.

 

0.1 - 0.3 - 1 is the damage scale, overpen, pen, cit respectively 

 

And this is an exponential curve, making citadels so much more powerful that it ruins games to suffer them. And this is compounded by only being able to heal back 10% of the damage suffered. resulting in any ship that can be crit easily being terrible no matter how good the rest of the ship is. This is clear with cruisers, which are good ships, but get so badly pulverized by battleships scoring only one or two critical hits that they are just about unusable in a BB heavy game, rendering wows BB vs DD the game. Resulting in horrible imbalances as BBs need to fill in the anti DD role cruisers would because cruisers can't exist in a game with many BBs. 

So all new ships have this in mind and are given ever harder to hit citadels.

 

I think citadel damage across all ships, classes, and weapons needs to be reduced by half. This brings the damage scale to 0.33 - 0.66 - 1, still really bad, but not you lose because one shell hit your ship

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On 10/12/2017 at 1:04 PM, GhostSwordsman said:

Meanwhile, IJN BBs continue to be the only remaining BBs to be easily citadeled.

Truth, although I'm not sure about"easy". Keep in mind you still have to drill through a little over 400 mm of armor. That being said it's easy to do the difficult then to do the near impossible. I recall bringing this up a while ago and being pretty much laughed out of the room, maybe by now people will realize that it is a bit game breaking that the MAJORITY of tier 9's and 10's either have no citadel or a waterline/sub-waterline citadel. 

 

I would like to point out that IJN guns only have marginally higher damage that in the grand scheme of 90ish k health make almost no difference. The benefit is in pen, but with waterline and sub waterline citadels that doesn't actually matter and 16 inch guns have no trouble penning cruisers anyways so moving up to the 18" doesn't really benefit you. The only real advantage of yamato guns is decent accuracy at distance and ability to bow pen. Although the reality of bow penning is with your dispersion you only hit one or two anyways. Having a citadel the size of Texas is a very steep price to pay for a bit of accuracy and a somewhat reliable response to bow tanking. 

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On 10/12/2017 at 1:22 PM, Show_Me_Your_Cits said:

 

I can tell you how it would change gameplay, because I played when all the high tier BBs besides NC had high citadels... 

 

It was stagnant bow camping, because if you turned, you died. All BBs hid in the back and did nothing. The brave ones that moved up got their angle wrong and POOF! Gone. It was awful. 

 

You don't need to citadel something to do massive damage, a bunch of pens does just as well. 

I mean, it's still like that because DD torpedoes, as the way it should be because a wave of torps is death.

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