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Soshi_Sone

Tier Salt

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Every time I see one of these threads complaining about +/- tiering, I have a thought. 

 

A good performance (in terms of XP, damage, and overall contribution) by a bottom tier ship, when mapped to a top tier ship, is often a POOR performance.  If one does not recognize this difference, it gives an illusion that one's top tier play is "good" (because it is measured against bottom tier play)...when in reality, the top tier play (relatively speaking) is actually poor.  If one can't perform when bottom tier, then why does one expect to perform better (relatively speaking) when top tier?  Better relative to the bottom tier?  Sure.  Better relative to one's top tier counterparts?  No.

 

The next time one sees the MM and thinks "Damn, I'm bottom tiered again...I can't do well".  Be introspective.  Do you REALLY think you will do better (relatively speaking) if you were top tier.

 

Better yet, when bottom tiered, try this thought: "OK, bottom tier'd...what can I do to make a DIFFERENCE in this match".  As for those top tier matches.  You gotta understand YOU are responsible to carry the team.  YOU are expected to top out.  Not just do good.  Be EXCEPTIONAL.

 

I see bottom tier "can do" players winning over top tier players all the time.  If I could look behind the numbers, I'd venture those top tier players are "can't do" bottom tier players.  In short, "can do" bottom tier players will outplay "can't do" bottom tier players who find themselves in a top tier ship.

 

Be a "can do" player no matter your tiering.  

 

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1 minute ago, Soshi_Sone said:

Every time I see one of these threads complaining about +/- tiering, I have a thought. 

 

A good performance (in terms of XP, damage, and overall contribution) by a bottom tier ship, when mapped to a top tier ship, is often a POOR performance.  If one does not recognize this difference, it gives an illusion that one's top tier play is "good" (because it is measured against bottom tier play)...when in reality, the top tier play (relatively speaking) is actually poor.  If one can't perform when bottom tier, then why does one expect to perform better (relatively speaking) when top tier?  Better relative to the bottom tier?  Sure.  Better relative to one's top tier counterparts?  No.

 

The next time one sees the MM and thinks "Damn, I'm bottom tiered again...I can't do well".  Be introspective.  Do you REALLY think you will do better (relatively speaking) if you were top tier.

 

Better yet, when bottom tiered, try this thought: "OK, bottom tier'd...what can I do to make a DIFFERENCE in this match".  As for those top tier matches.  You gotta understand YOU are responsible to carry the team.  YOU are expected to top out.  Not just do good.  Be EXCEPTIONAL.

 

I see bottom tier "can do" players winning over top tier players all the time.  If I could look behind the numbers, I'd venture those top tier players are "can't do" bottom tier players.  In short, "can do" bottom tier players will outplay "can't do" bottom tier players who find themselves in a top tier ship.

 

Be a "can do" player no matter your tiering.  

 

 

Why do you kids continue to refuse to acknowledge who plays this game?

Can you really not see beyond your own little world, and recognize that not everyone is as involved in the game as you are? :Smile_amazed:

Here's a perfect snapshot of who plays the game....and it's not likely to change, no matter how much you wish...:Smile_teethhappy:

 

eHT7Oan.png

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Think the point is that when you play tier 6, it gets frustrating to constantly being thrown into tier 8 mm without ever being top tier yourself.

 

Yes, when I run out the farragut & find myself in a tier 8 game I still try equally as hard, but that doesn't change the fact that it's significantly harder to do well when I meet a tier 8 dd in a cap we're both trying to capture.

 

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The thing is, awiggin, the majority of players are food whether they're top tier or not. The major difference is that when they're top tier they last a little bit longer and feel a little bit stronger.

Players want a power fantasy. They want to smash aside puny botes. They want to be top tier. The sad fact of the matter is that whenever someone is top tier, someone else has to be bottom tier.

"But I'm always bottom tier when I'm playing my <X>!"

That is more a product of player numbers at tiers and WG's methods of balancing tiers than the +/- 2 MM. People are 'always' bottom tier when driving their T5. So they quit, or get a T6. Then they're 'always' bottom tier with their T6. So they quit, or get a T7. And so on and so forth.

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4 minutes ago, awiggin said:

 

Why do you kids continue to refuse to acknowledge who plays this game?

Can you really not see beyond your own little world, and recognize that not everyone is as involved in the game as you are? :Smile_amazed:

Here's a perfect snapshot of who plays the game....and it's not likely to change, no matter how much you wish...:Smile_teethhappy:

 

eHT7Oan.png

 

I don't really comprehend what this chart is trying to portray. 

Edited by murf4321

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2 minutes ago, Soshi_Sone said:

A good performance (in terms of XP, damage, and overall contribution) by a bottom tier ship, when mapped to a top tier ship, is often a POOR performance.  If one does not recognize this difference, it gives an illusion that one's top tier play is "good" (because it is measured against bottom tier play)...when in reality, the top tier play (relatively speaking) is actually poor.  If one can't perform when bottom tier, then why does one expect to perform better (relatively speaking) when top tier?  Better relative to the bottom tier?  Sure.  Better relative to one's top tier counterparts?  No.

 

This might be the issue for some folks, and you are correct in that poor performance at bottom tier means relatively speaking poor performance at top tier.  

 

The issue to me personally though (and I suspect a fair amount of the others I have seen post regarding it) is not a difference in one's own performance dependent upon tier, but rather the ability to influence the match.  For example when one is bottom by 2 tiers, especially in a ship that is hard countered by an enemy ship that is high tier, then one's ability to influence the match is adversely affected more so than if the hard counter is the same or lower tier.  This forces a playstyle change wherein you can support teammates but ultimately are dependent upon them to carry the match.

 

Thus when one is the best player on a team, but left in a situation where their skills may not be used to the effect their team needs, one often gets quite frustrated watching an entirely preventable loss, not due to any particular mistake that you made, nor thru any superior skill the enemy team had, but simply by one's own team's incompetence of which you have no recourse to ignore and simply carry the way you can as top tier.

 

it comes down to that roughly 1/3 auto-win 1/3 auto-loss and 1/3 up to skill formula.  People don't like the auto-losses ignoring their skill, and often times those games are such because of bottom tiering and hard counters, not personal skill disparity.

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3 minutes ago, murf4321 said:

I don't really comprehend what this chart is trying to portray. 

The vast majority of players are around 600 - 800 WTR, with a minority less than 599, and more players are 1300+ than are 1100 - 1200. The length of the bars represent how many players, and their position along the horizontal axis their WTR.

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On the flip side, a GOOD player is going to spend most of his time while bottom tiered trying to stay alive, where he would spend most of his time while top tier wrecking ships and pushing objectives.

Just staying alive to hope to pull out a carry at the end of the match is a poor and not fun strategy.

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WTR is not a very good way to rate performance anyway. This is due to in large part, a lack of useful information in the API and in a small part in assuming that like WOT damage done correlates to win rate. That is mostly true for BB's, but still not very accurate. All WTR is good for is to see how well you are doing at WTR, not at WOWS.

When I am bottom tier, I tend to do as well as I do at top tier. Some of that is due to me playing in closed beta where I had to learn using +-3 MM, but I do play a lot more carefully when I am bottom tier.

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Just now, Jarkorsis said:

WTR is not a very good way to rate performance anyway.

Then point us to a readily available better one. Until then WTR is the one that will be used, for lack of a better one. And there will always be people going "But WTR sucks", yet not provide a better alternative.

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2 minutes ago, Lert said:

The thing is, awiggin, the majority of players are be food whether they're top tier or not.

Players want a power fantasy. They want to smash aside puny botes. They want to be top tier. The sad fact of the matter is that whenever someone is top tier, someone else has to be bottom tier.

"But I'm always bottom tier when I'm playing my <X>!"

That is more a product of player numbers at tiers and WG's methods of balancing tiers than the +/- 2 MM. People are 'always' bottom tier when driving their T5. So they quit, or get a T6. Then they're 'always' bottom tier with their T6. So they quit, or get a T7. And so on and so forth.

The thing is no one is always bottom tier even when playing tier 5 which does see more than its fair share of matches as less than top tier. This is no different than people complaining about losing streaks while completely forgetting about similar winning streaks.

1 minute ago, Kerrec said:

On the flip side, a GOOD player is going to spend most of his time while bottom tiered trying to stay alive, where he would spend most of his time while top tier wrecking ships and pushing objectives.

Just staying alive to hope to pull out a carry at the end of the match is a poor and not fun strategy.

A good player in that situation will not only find a way to stay alive but to do that while finding a way to contribute to their team winning.

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As that chart showed, most people suck at this game (the Fiji who missed his torps on my MO from .2km (literally)...twice). They suck so bad they don't know why they suck. And the easiest thing to blame is a) their team, b) their ship, and then c) MM. This of course those who have discovered the fact that no, that BB over there didn't use haxs to delete their broadside cruiser. Most people can't realize the problem is them, so they blame the nearest convenient object, which happens to be the MM. And, like all good lies, it has a grain of truth to it, as there are tiers where the MM is a bit messed up.

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I'd add that there is a rather significant technical difference between ships from T6 to T8. There are cases where a T8 cruiser can fire shells further than a T6 battleship. 

It's not possible to win or survive a matchup like that unless the T8 player is truly the single worst player on Cthulhu's Green Earth. 

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3 minutes ago, OgreMkV said:

It's not possible to win or survive a matchup like that unless the T8 player is truly the single worst player on Cthulhu's Green Earth. 

You realize that that T6 has T8's in his team as well, right? What is that T6 battleship doing so far ahead that an enemy T8 cruiser can rain down fire on him with impunity without the battleship's teammates shooting back?

If you're top tier your job is to engage the enemy top tier ships. If you're bottom tier your job is to support the top tier. A major problem with the tier difference is that people don't switch up playstyle / role depending on tier / ship type, they play the same whether they're top tier or bottom tier.

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9 minutes ago, Lert said:

The vast majority of players are around 600 - 800 WTR, with a minority less than 599, and more players are 1300+ than are 1100 - 1200. The length of the bars represent how many players, and their position along the horizontal axis their WTR.

 

So the Y axis should be labeled in %.  What a piss poorly created graph.

 

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Just now, murf4321 said:

What a piss poorly created graph.

Not denying.

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7 minutes ago, Jarkorsis said:

WTR is not a very good way to rate performance anyway. This is due to in large part, a lack of useful information in the API and in a small part in assuming that like WOT damage done correlates to win rate. That is mostly true for BB's, but still not very accurate. All WTR is good for is to see how well you are doing at WTR, not at WOWS.

When I am bottom tier, I tend to do as well as I do at top tier. Some of that is due to me playing in closed beta where I had to learn using +-3 MM, but I do play a lot more carefully when I am bottom tier.

 

It's not damage done in a vacuum, it's damage done on a ship by ship basis relative to other players in that same ship.  

 

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1 minute ago, Lert said:

You realize that that T6 has T8's in his team as well, right? What is that T6 battleship doing so far ahead that an enemy T8 cruiser can rain down fire on him with impunity without the battleship's teammates shooting back?

If you're top tier your job is to engage the enemy top tier ships. If you're bottom tier your job is to support the top tier. A major problem with the tier difference is that people don't switch up playstyle / role depending on tier / ship type, they play the same whether they're top tier or bottom tier.

Oh, I totally agree.

But to do deny the existence of the quality differences and blame (or praise) only the player, I believe is wrong. It is probably 75% the player (more or less). 

 

But I'll go 1-1 My Kutuzov with the best player in the game in a Bayern any time. Let's say we played 100 games that way. Would my win rate be my current average win rate (53%). Would it be near 100% or near 0%? 

Yes, it's a very specific scenario that (probably) never happens in the real game. But there is a difference. 

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3 minutes ago, Lert said:

Then point us to a readily available better one. Until then WTR is the one that will be used, for lack of a better one. And there will always be people going "But WTR sucks", yet not provide a better alternative.

The best alternative is not an equation, but your mark 4 eyeball. Division with a person for 15 to 20 games at various tiers and you will see how good or bad he or sh is. Blindly following a very flawed equation is not helping anyone. I am not a stat denier when there is a meaningful equation available. WN8 is a reasonable equation, in tanks, even though it made many people ignore winning, and just try to pad stats. WTR is not that meaningful.

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10 minutes ago, Lert said:

Then point us to a readily available better one. Until then WTR is the one that will be used, for lack of a better one. And there will always be people going "But WTR sucks", yet not provide a better alternative.

 

Question: does the base XP provided by the API (and in our profiles) include premium bonus or not? I can't remember.

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1 minute ago, OgreMkV said:

But to do deny the existence of the quality differences

Please point out where I - or anyone else - is denying quality difference between tiers.

1 minute ago, Jarkorsis said:

Division with a person for 15 to 20 games at various tiers and you will see how good or bad he or sh is.

I do apologize, I do not have a life that I'm aware of, but even then I don't have the time to division 15 to 20 games with literally everyone who plays this game.

I know WTR is flawed. But until someone comes up with a better alternative, it's the one that'll get used. You can rail against that all you want, but wouldn't that time be better spent making an alternative?

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3 minutes ago, murf4321 said:

 

It's not damage done in a vacuum, it's damage done on a ship by ship basis relative to other players in that same ship.  

 

It is damage done without regard to the objectives, or context. So it is damage done in a vacuum. It is good at telling you how much damage you do vs the average player of a ship. 

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Just now, Skpstr said:

 

Question: does the base XP provided by the API (and in our profiles) include premium bonus or not? I can't remember.

I think the premium bonus is included which is one of the reasons that WTR is so suspect.

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1 minute ago, Skpstr said:

Question: does the base XP provided by the API (and in our profiles) include premium bonus or not? I can't remember.

I am 95% sure it does include premium bonus. I am less certain about signal flag bonuses. Also, I sure wish this forum software allowed for the copy-pasting of quotes so I didn't have to doublepost to answer your question.

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2 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

which is one of the reasons that WTR is so suspect.

WTR does not use XP.

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