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RobertViktor68

Tier IX and X BB's getting nerf

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Saw the video by Notser this morning on nerfs to the LION and CONQUEROR.  I'm only at the KGV but, the nerfs seem to be misplaced.  There will be a marginal nerf to concealment to 11.8km.  The recharge for repair party (heal) will be increased to 120 sec (premium) or 180 sec (non-premium).

 

I think WG missed the point.  If anything the nerf should have come to the HE shells.  They can still be great fire ships but, reduce the chance down 13% on the 419mm guns (35% rather than 48%) and 25% on the 457mm guns (38% rather the 63%).   

 

The proposed nerf by WG might just encourage long range fire sniping.   Thoughts?

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WG will tell you that HE shells are a British BB "national flavor", so I don't see those getting knocked down anytime soon.

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1 minute ago, KnightFandragon said:

Sounds about right, nerf whats not the problem....

That's what they did with the Khab, so we're just following suit here.

 

Then again, super heal and better than cruiser concealment are part of the issue as well.  There is no excuse that ANY battleship should have better concealment than any cruiser at the same tier.

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Like I said in another post, the issue is less the shells and more that people aren't coordinating to kill them faster. This nerf makes them easier to kill but still just as much of a source of damage. WG apparently agrees with me that the issue is you folks need to start focusing down threats more efficiently. 

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I am grinding Monarch to get Lion. If they nerf the T9 and T10 RN BBs, I won't bother with it and will stop everything, dispose with Monarch, and wait for Vanguard. Consumable cooling-down times have to be at least even with other T10 BBs, even slightly better given the lower HP pool on these ships. I don't like this....RN flavor my butt!

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49 minutes ago, RobertViktor68 said:

.

 

I think WG missed the point.  If anything the nerf should have come to the HE shells.  They can still be great fire ships but, reduce the chance down 13% on the 419mm guns (35% rather than 48%) and 25% on the 457mm guns (38% rather the 63%).   

 

The proposed nerf by WG might just encourage long range fire sniping.   Thoughts?

I am still on the QE but from looking at their stats on Warships Today their damage output is far above the other same tier BB's. I think either fire chance or HE damage should be lowered and maybe both.

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That cooldown time will certainly be felt situationally. It's not the nerf people wanted but I took notice of my battles on the Lion that if I had to wait another 40s for a new heal on some of them, there were many situations I'd be dead before being able to heal up. That said, it's not a very big nerf, one that can easily be worked around by simply not being as aggressive and timing the advances better, though I really imagined the idea of having a super heal was to allow more aggressive play on these ships when needed or when opportunity arose.

I guess there has to be a price for being able to heal half your max HP in one sitting.

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1 hour ago, RobertViktor68 said:

The proposed nerf by WG might just encourage long range fire sniping.   Thoughts?

Most of the damage out is from HE spam, IMO. What is interesting is that the W/R for all T10 BB's is about the same. Meaning it does not matter what BB you use in a T10 match. My stats on W/R (57.35 vs 51.23), K/D(2.6 vs 1.9) and survivability (72% vs 50%) are higher while damage is about 30% lower (75k vs 106k). That's because I ambush CA's.

Increasing the recharge rate on Damage control to 2 minutes on premium? Like Notser said, that's 4 salvos. more than enough to finish off a ship.

The issue on what type of players compiling these stats is also the issue. Unicums, average players or spuds? Nerf it so that it balances out of unicums, then average players will have a hard time with the ship. I won't mention the reactions of the spuds. Then you'll hear the cry it was over nerfed, once people start playing with it. It's like slogging through the Izumo to get the Yamato. People will stop at the Monarch if that is the case.

The upcoming clan wars also raises the question. People will hesitate to pick this ship when it is now considered a contender. Which kinda lines up with the GK that WG is pushing for the rental BB.

The resulting nerf on the heal makes the Conk a glass cannon. If I'm hesitant to put it to CQB range now, what makes you think I'll put it in CQB later.

Far better to nerf the reload cycle/ tone done the fire chances, if they want to normalize ship.

This will just make Conk players to just long range HE spam even more.

 Using the brute force approach. How typically Russian. 

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Why is it Conqueror only have 2 consumables while every other tier IX & X have 3 and the German BBs have 4 consumables?

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3 minutes ago, Dah_Bears268 said:

Why is it Conqueror only have 2 consumables while every other tier IX & X have 3 and the German BBs have 4 consumables?

Game balance, IIRC. The Yamato is capable of lolpen a T10 BB's bow. The GK has those secondaries for CQB use. Hydro is for use to prevent dd's from torping you when you bow tank.  Conqueror's super heal is a national trait. It's the same thing for RN CL's.

I really hop WG tests those nerfs out before implementation rather than placing it by fiat. 

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4 minutes ago, Herodotus4 said:

So 108 seconds with jack Dunkirk and JOAT

What is a Jack Dunkirk? :Smile-_tongue: Actually do to real life issues I missed out on him, maybe he will come around again.

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12 minutes ago, Herodotus4 said:

So 108 seconds with jack Dunkirk and JOAT

Add the November Foxtrot flag and that's another 6 seconds off.

Nation Commander Icon
and Name
Unique Traits
Великобритания_флаг_ВМС_с_тенью.png Dunk_Capn.png
Jack Dunkirk
link Black Swan with 10 skill points
icon_JackofAllTrades_dark.png Jack of All Trades reduces cooldown on all consumables by -10% (normally -5%).
icon_SmokeScreenExpert_dark.png Smoke Screen Expert increases radius of smoke screen by +30% (normally +20%).
icon_ExpertMarksman_dark.png Expert Marksman improves turret rotation speed by +3.0 deg/s for guns with a caliber of up to 139 mm and 1.0 deg/s for guns with a caliber above 139 mm (normally +2.5 and 0.7, respectively).

You get him in the Dunkirk campaign. If you don't have him now, may have to wait to get him later,

Edited by Bill_Halsey

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4 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

What is a Jack Dunkirk? :Smile-_tongue: Actually do to real life issues I missed out on him, maybe he will come around again.

Nation Commander Icon
and Name
Unique Traits
Великобритания_флаг_ВМС_с_тенью.png Dunk_Capn.png
Jack Dunkirk
link Black Swan with 10 skill points
icon_JackofAllTrades_dark.png Jack of All Trades reduces cooldown on all consumables by -10% (normally -5%).
icon_SmokeScreenExpert_dark.png Smoke Screen Expert increases radius of smoke screen by +30% (normally +20%).
icon_ExpertMarksman_dark.png Expert Marksman improves turret rotation speed by +3.0 deg/s for guns with a caliber of up to 139 mm and 1.0 deg/s for guns with a caliber above 139 mm (normally +2.5 and 0.7, respectively).

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4 minutes ago, Bill_Halsey said:
Nation Commander Icon
and Name
Unique Traits
Великобритания_флаг_ВМС_с_тенью.png Dunk_Capn.png
Jack Dunkirk
link Black Swan with 10 skill points
icon_JackofAllTrades_dark.png Jack of All Trades reduces cooldown on all consumables by -10% (normally -5%).
icon_SmokeScreenExpert_dark.png Smoke Screen Expert increases radius of smoke screen by +30% (normally +20%).
icon_ExpertMarksman_dark.png Expert Marksman improves turret rotation speed by +3.0 deg/s for guns with a caliber of up to 139 mm and 1.0 deg/s for guns with a caliber above 139 mm (normally +2.5 and 0.7, respectively).

I was trying to joke, should have thrown in a smiley. I knew about him and the mission to get him but this game doesn't work on tablets which was the only internet access I had for those months.

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8 hours ago, Ace_04 said:

That's what they did with the Khab, so we're just following suit here.

 

Then again, super heal and better than cruiser concealment are part of the issue as well.  There is no excuse that ANY battleship should have better concealment than any cruiser at the same tier.


To be fair, the NC can get down to 11.7 without causing too much grief. 

In regards to the topic and hand though, this is not much of a nerf. The reason Lion and Conqueror  have been so problematic is their routine ability to shrug off fire damage with the super heal while tormenting other BBs with their obscene HE shells. They've completely screwed up the "when to use battleship HE" flowchart thanks to their 32mm bows, deep citadels which limit the effectiveness of AP at most angles, along with a heal that renders any fires you light essentially meaningless, especially when coupled with India Yankee and India Delta flags. The huge increase to cooldowns will be somewhat helpful though, as the fires you light are now more likely to burn for full duration eliminating a lot of the "bail-out" button functionality of the heal.  Still, they'll be able to easily weather the storm by using Jack Dunkirk's special skills, Damage control modifications, and November Foxtrot signals. 

 

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On 10/11/2017 at 5:40 PM, rapier_ape said:


To be fair, the NC can get down to 11.7 without causing too much grief. 

In regards to the topic and hand though, this is not much of a nerf. The reason Lion and Conqueror  have been so problematic is their routine ability to shrug off fire damage with the super heal while tormenting other BBs with their obscene HE shells. They've completely screwed up the "when to use battleship HE" flowchart thanks to their 32mm bows, deep citadels which limit the effectiveness of AP at most angles, along with a heal that renders any fires you light essentially meaningless, especially when coupled with India Yankee and India Delta flags. The huge increase to cooldowns will be somewhat helpful though, as the fires you light are now more likely to burn for full duration eliminating a lot of the "bail-out" button functionality of the heal.  Still, they'll be able to easily weather the storm by using Jack Dunkirk's special skills, Damage control modifications, and November Foxtrot signals. 

 

 

Cruisers are actually best able to deal with RN BBs.  They're the ones that can pen their poor plating more frequently.  They're the ones that can keep landing fires on them, as they do on any other BB.  This all keeps pressure on the RN BB and its consumables.  It is also a big fact from WG's own stats provided, that Conqueror ignores Cruisers while the other "normal" BBs go for Cruisers.  Conqueror players specifically focus BBs at the cost of ignoring some very dangerous Cruisers like Zao, Hindenburg, Des Moines, Moskva, Henri IV.

 

If you look at the stats WG put out, it's a very interesting cycle.  Edgecase goes into it with some analysis but the numbers are fascinating.

 

Conqueror isn't your typical BB.  It isn't your typical BB even in target selection, which has significant effects for and against your team.

 

The DD is still very good in dealing with Conqueror to overcome their stealth and keep her spotted.  Conqueror has no hydro, no radar, not even catapult aircraft.  The DD doesn't even need to shoot torps if other ships can shoot at Conqueror.

 

The CV is still a better counter, as with most BBs.  Most Conqueror players will not build for AA.  Also, aircraft can keep Conqueror spotted for the team for focus fire, which is VERY important in not letting her hide and repair the damage she took.

 

Lastly, a ship with great guns, i.e. Yamato, can still have good effect on Conqueror.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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3 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

 

Lastly, a ship with great guns, i.e. Yamato, can still have good effect on Conqueror.

I've found anything with mediocre guns has a good effect on the Conqueror...

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2 hours ago, Magic_Fighting_Tuna said:

I've found anything with mediocre guns has a good effect on the Conqueror...

 

It's a persistent thing with RN BBs, at least Tier VII on.  If you look at all the complaints about Conqueror, one of the whines is her citadel location.  She's very hard to citadel.  But I'll tell you now, as a user and of course shooting at Conqueror, they eat penetrations just fine.  Matter of fact, treat her like you would shooting at German BBs.  You're not getting the citadels on Conq.  But like German BBs, you can bag lots of penetrations.

 

Cruisers are worse.  They just keep getting pens on them.  With their DPM that can be dangerous.  Consider the prowess at range of a number of high tier Cruisers, they are the ones I worry about as a RN BB.

 

Now, Yamato may not bag citadel hits, but the pens from the 460s are bad enough.

 

The funny thing is people talk like RN BBs are immune to damage :Smile_teethhappy:

 

As for the nerfs, it's only really going to punish the Conquerors that are playing more forward.  So, guess what they're going to do more of now?  Sitting back.  I would.  Conqueror has the smallest HP pool already for Tier X's.  Why risk it?

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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34 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

 

It's a persistent thing with RN BBs, at least Tier VII on.  If you look at all the complaints about Conqueror, one of the whines is her citadel location.  She's very hard to citadel.  But I'll tell you now, as a user and of course shooting at Conqueror, they eat penetrations just fine.  Matter of fact, treat her like you would shooting at German BBs.  You're not getting the citadels on Conq.  But like German BBs, you can bag lots of penetrations.

 

Cruisers are worse.  They just keep getting pens on them.  With their DPM that can be dangerous.  Consider the prowess at range of a number of high tier Cruisers, they are the ones I worry about as a RN BB.

 

Now, Yamato may not bag citadel hits, but the pens from the 460s are bad enough.

 

The funny thing is people talk like RN BBs are immune to damage :Smile_teethhappy:

 

As for the nerfs, it's only really going to punish the Conquerors that are playing more forward.  So, guess what they're going to do more of now?  Sitting back.  I would.  Conqueror has the smallest HP pool already for Tier X's.  Why risk it?

Yeah I'll never understand how people can complain about them, their like German battleships but worse. And I wouldn't call their HE the balancer either at most their going to a few thousand damage with a good chance of a fire which now days can be heavily migated so fires aren't not the death dealer they once were. Compared to them losing healthy chunks of their smaller HP reserves to almost anything every salvo they just can't keep up even with their good healz, they are definitely get shafted here.

Edited by Magic_Fighting_Tuna

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On 14/10/2017 at 1:01 AM, Magic_Fighting_Tuna said:

I've found anything with mediocre guns has a good effect on the Conqueror...

Yes, the same way with Minotaur, however Conqueror has a large enough HP pool that even when your team gangs up on it you stand very little chance of taking it out before he uses his concealment and heal to weather the storm. Worse yet, even if he is down to a few thousand health he doesn't need to come into close range in order to effectively engage other battleships. With HE shells with a base 63% ignition chance you only need point in the general direction of your enemy and lob shells.



Apparently the idea here was Conqueror was to make it more difficult for high tier battleships to use the "point and park" technique whereby they can deal a great deal of damage while bouncing small caliber HE and AP shells of all sorts. (Gotta love how crossing your own T is a good idea in this game.) It's fine that they don't like this meta, especially given the absolute insanity that is BB play on the RU server, but the solution shouldn't have come in the form of a 457mm HE shell. Good cruisers and destroyer players are already quite competent at recognizing "sitting duck" battleships and torching them. They could have discouraged tanking simply by reminding us the F3 button is there for a reason, yet instead we get the Deus-Ex solution. I presume it has something to do with us not buying enough dubloons this summer. :Smile_coin:

 

It was US-based battleship players like myself who pushed hard for Iowa and Montana having their citadels lowered, even with a substantial portion of the forum going out of their way to mock our efforts. However, we hit WG repeatedly with numbers proving that the USN ships were performing quite poorly compared with their IJN and KM counterparts on the NA server until they were forced to address their goofball reasoning for keeping the historically inaccurate skyscraper citadels and we got what we wanted. We complained about the issues with Japanese DDs creating torp soup and we got what we wanted. We complained about being spammed by invisible cruisers and we got what we wanted. In each case, a couple of dedicated players went out of their way to detail the toxic effects a particular issue had on gameplay while ignoring the endless "git gud" responses. As far as I can tell, we have our next project. 

 


On 14/10/2017 at 3:37 AM, HazeGrayUnderway said:

 

It's a persistent thing with RN BBs, at least Tier VII on.  If you look at all the complaints about Conqueror, one of the whines is her citadel location.  She's very hard to citadel.  But I'll tell you now, as a user and of course shooting at Conqueror, they eat penetrations just fine.  Matter of fact, treat her like you would shooting at German BBs.  You're not getting the citadels on Conq.  But like German BBs, you can bag lots of penetrations.

 

I'm too tired to come up with a full response to this, but the issue isn't so much with Conqueror not taking enough damage, but being able to dish out massive amounts of pain regardless of how well the attacking BB has angled itself. 

 

On 14/10/2017 at 4:09 AM, Magic_Fighting_Tuna said:

Yeah I'll never understand how people can complain about them, their like German battleships but worse. And I wouldn't call their HE the balancer either at most their going to a few thousand damage with a good chance of a fire which now days can be heavily migated so fires aren't not the death dealer they once were. Compared to them losing healthy chunks of their smaller HP reserves to almost anything every salvo they just can't keep up even with their good healz, they are definitely get shafted here.

The vast majority of the line is fine, however Lion is a bit out of whack and Conqueror shouldn't have been released in her current state. 

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1 hour ago, rapier_ape said:

Yes, the same way with Minotaur, however Conqueror has a large enough HP pool that even when your team gangs up on it you stand very little chance of taking it out before he uses his concealment and heal to weather the storm. Worse yet, even if he is down to a few thousand health he doesn't need to come into close range in order to effectively engage other battleships. With HE shells with a base 63% ignition chance you only need point in the general direction of your enemy and lob shells.



Apparently the idea here was Conqueror was to make it more difficult for high tier battleships to use the "point and park" technique whereby they can deal a great deal of damage while bouncing small caliber HE and AP shells of all sorts. (Gotta love how crossing your own T is a good idea in this game.) It's fine that they don't like this meta, especially given the absolute insanity that is BB play on the RU server, but the solution shouldn't have come in the form of a 457mm HE shell. Good cruisers and destroyer players are already quite competent at recognizing "sitting duck" battleships and torching them. They could have discouraged tanking simply by reminding us the F3 button is there for a reason, yet instead we get the Deus-Ex solution. I presume it has something to do with us not buying enough dubloons this summer. :Smile_coin:

 

It was US-based battleship players like myself who pushed hard for Iowa and Montana having their citadels lowered, even with a substantial portion of the forum going out of their way to mock our efforts. However, we hit WG repeatedly with numbers proving that the USN ships were performing quite poorly compared with their IJN and KM counterparts on the NA server until they were forced to address their goofball reasoning for keeping the historically inaccurate skyscraper citadels and we got what we wanted. We complained about the issues with Jap DDs creating torp soup and we got what we wanted. We complained about being spammed by invisible cruisers and we got what we wanted. In each case, a couple of dedicated players went out of their way to detail the toxic effects a particular issue had on gameplay while ignoring the endless "git gud" responses. As far as I can tell, we have our next project. 

 


 

I'm too tired to come up with a full response to this, but the issue isn't so much with Conqueror not taking enough damage, but being able to dish out massive amounts of pain regardless of how well the attacking BB has angled itself. 

 

The vast majority of the line is fine, however Lion is a bit out of whack and Conqueror shouldn't have been released in her current state. 

- True, now that you mention it a Conqueror can weather a storm by keeping some distance to maximise their concealment and healing abilities and their HE does give them a way to reliably damage their enemies but I reckon they need to keep this in mind, as I assume being in a close range fight they lose their advantages and their weaknesses become more evident. Which isn't too surprising given how its very easy it is to over extend and bite off more then you can chew and people around here like hyper aggression.

- I cannot find anything wrong with this statement, Although I think we have a different idea on why a 457 HE shell was a bad idea. In my view 457 HE shells just don't work with the ability to now spec and migate fires with the new captain skills and what not so you can end up riding out the firestorm unless you get focused heavily. Plus most of the time the battleship slinging these tends to get focused so they never seem to be-able to stay within an area long enough to pile on the fire damage to make the difference. Overall I think they should have gone in a different direction all together.

- Facts and development history don't lie so I'm not really fight this one as the next "potential project" as it will probably happen(except for the CV rework :P)

- For the last part I should have been more specific, I was referring to the people who complain their too powerful. I haven't played them myself(I'm tempting to dabble) but as you mentioned much of the line is fine but their are a few odd ducks that need some love badly.

Edited by Magic_Fighting_Tuna

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18 hours ago, rapier_ape said:

 

I'm too tired to come up with a full response to this, but the issue isn't so much with Conqueror not taking enough damage, but being able to dish out massive amounts of pain regardless of how well the attacking BB has angled itself. 

 

 

Conqueror does not rip huge amounts of damage in short time.  Like all HE spammers, she needs a lot of time for that to do work.  If you are consistently getting taken down all the way from any HE spammer, you need to seriously look at where you're positioned and manage your consumables.

 

The threat of HE+Fires to a ship are nothing new.  People are freaking out around these boards as if HE+Fire mechanics is something dreamed up for the RN BB line.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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