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_RC1138

So if the Belfast is this Over Powered...

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Then how bad is the Kutz?

In a moment of weakness (and another SC with doubloons) I bought the Belfast just because I wanted another UK Captain Trainer, and seriously, what the [edited]? It's basically a perfect CL.

Good ROF? Check.

Great Ballistics? Check.

OP Smoke? Check.

Radar at a non-radar tier? Check.

Stealtheir than the T6 CL's? Check.

T8 Upgrades at T7 for some [edited] reason? Check.

Surprisingly Durable for a UK CL? Big check.

It's basically a better Cleveland, or the way I want the Cleveland to be; better range, more health, faster rotating guns, and smoke + radar is the most overpowered combo in game. And I'm playing with a dud 7 pnt commander and it's still outperforming anyone I see. Like this is seriously like downgrading to a kiddie's version of a CL.

And the Kutz is better? Seriously is this why CL's keep getting screwed over? Are these two boats just screwing up the curve? And despite owning one, I *still* think the Belfast should be nerfed a bit. Make it choose between radar *or* Smoke, and perhaps ding it's AP potential (it's USN CA tier).

Edited by _RC1138

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It does not have USN auto-bounce angles.  They bounce pretty good with just a bit of angle.

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1 minute ago, crzyhawk said:

It does not have USN auto-bounce angles.  They bounce pretty good with just a bit of angle.

I know that, but it does great damage and like the Baltimore, most dont seem to respect how dangerous it is to take CL/CA AP

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The Belfast is a bit OP, but I think it really becomes a terror when you apply a dedicated captain to her (ie, have DE and IFHE); both skills which are totally useless for a general UK CL captain. 

 

So, if the fire chance was reduced, or capped, that might crimp the high end but not gimp the ship too hard? 

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No they don't.  I ambushed a Mogami and  half dead Pensacola with my Belfast they other night.  I knew the P-cola was there; I was hunting him.  I had AP locked and loaded.  I popped radar JUST before I came around the corner of the island, just to make sure he didn't get the drop on me.  SURPRISE!  Broadside Mogami at 3.5 km.  Two salvos later, I changed targets to the half-dead P-cola, and collected my double strike, after 16 total citadels over three salvos.

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Oh, Belfast has HE?  I didn't know that till I read what you wrote and checked.  Interesting.

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3 minutes ago, UltimateNewbie said:

The Belfast is a bit OP, but I think it really becomes a terror when you apply a dedicated captain to her (ie, have DE and IFHE); both skills which are totally useless for a general UK CL captain. 

 

So, if the fire chance was reduced, or capped, that might crimp the high end but not gimp the ship too hard? 

I don't use DE, I think it's generally a waste of 3 captain skill points, but I'm not getting into that argument again.  IFHE is still quite the waste on an RN CL though.

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2 minutes ago, UltimateNewbie said:

The Belfast is a bit OP,

A bit? It's not a bit at all. It is *blatantly* overpowered. I just pulled 5 wins in a row placing top on 4/5. This thing is truly ridiculous. If I had a UK Capt with my Cleveland loadout on it this thing would be unbeatable. IFHE on 152mm guns can damage entire hulls of every ship in it's MM spread and only a few of the T10's have sections that can't be penned by IFHE 152mm's. Like playing against this thing is annoying but I usually brushed it off as my own failings but now I am certain this is the definition of PTW. Nothing at it's MM spread can compare. Even without IFHE it's dominating. Anyone that defends this is just lying to themselves.

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Oh it's definitely OP.  Kaga needs to be kicked in the nads before we worry about Belfast though.

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18 minutes ago, _RC1138 said:

And the Kutz is better? Seriously is this why CL's keep getting screwed over? Are these two boats just screwing up the curve? And despite owning one, I *still* think the Belfast should be nerfed a bit. Make it choose between radar *or* Smoke, and perhaps ding it's AP potential (it's USN CA tier).

 

Yep, captains should have to choose between radar or smoke, just like with Mino and Neptune. Radar shouldn't be present before T8 anyway (looking forward to when it finally creeps down to T6). 

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3 minutes ago, crzyhawk said:

Oh it's definitely OP.  Kaga needs to be kicked in the nads before we worry about Belfast though.

Maybe it's my tendency to play DD's/USN CL/CA's, but most CV's don't bother me so to me the Kaga is fine (Cleveland/New Orleans/Baltimore sure doesn't worry about Kaga planes). But I can see enough teammates getting cross dropped unopposed to know that's a problem. But I feel like, now after a few games in Belfast, that it might be screwing up the perception of CL's. *MOST* CL's do NOT function like that and if people are grading classes on a curve, then Belfast should be omited as it's *CLEARLY* better than it's compatriots.

 

Also I'm cross training this capt for the eventual UK DD's which I assume will be basically just like KM DD's; sorta Gunboats with single shot torps. So PM, LS, DE now, + IFHE next, CE (depending on Stealth rating of UK DD's), SI and not sure on the last two points, as EM seems unnecessary for the Belfast (faster w/o EM than a Cleveland *with* EM). I'm not a fan of TA (and it's worthless on the Belfast). Maybe SSE? HA is a waste on DD's as it knocks what? 6 seconds off? As is JoAT's,

Edited by _RC1138

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1 minute ago, _RC1138 said:

Maybe it's my tendency to play DD's/USN CL/CA's, but most CV's don't bother me so to me the Kaga is fine (Cleveland/New Orleans/Baltimore sure doesn't worry about Kaga planes). But I can see enough teammates getting cross dropped unopposed to know that's a problem. But I feel like, now after a few games in Belfast, that it might be screwing up the perception of CL's. *MOST* CL's do NOT function like that and if people are grading classes on a curve, then Belfast should be omited as it's *CLEARLY* better than it's compatriots.

 

Also I'm cross training this capt for the eventual UK DD's which I assume will be basically just like KM DD's; sorta Gunboats with single shot torps.

Really what /should/ have been done with RN CL imo, is that they should not be AP only, they should have HE only with cooked in IFHE (which other CLs should not get).  Taking AP away from Belfast takes away a lot of her anti-cruiser potential.  I tend to put in a lot of work with my Belfast's AP.

 

Try to gunfight without the smoke though, and you'd find she's quite weak.  It's doable, but you're going to be hurt, badly.  Without smoke, you'd just a gimped Cleveland.

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Why is the Kut better?

Because Belfast can never see tier Xs. Can never farm juicy tier X bb percentage fire damage.

Therefore you have to actually switch targets and intentionally set multiple fires in Belfast to get "Witherer":Smile_playing:

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Just now, crzyhawk said:

Try to gunfight without the smoke though, and you'd find she's quite weak.  It's doable, but you're going to be hurt, badly.  Without smoke, you'd just a gimped Cleveland.

I've been doing that all night. Only using smoke when I *need* to. And it's far from a gimped Cleveland. I love my Cleveland. I life the Cleveland. This thing is a straight upgrade. Better ballistics, faster rotation of the guns (I'm still pissed about the EM nerf, moreso than the AFT nerf as the Cleve will just barely, just enough to screw you up, out turn your guns), about the same turning circle and rudder time (assuming you take rudder upgrades). A little worse Fire% listed *but* I call B.S. on that number. Like I literally am sure that number is wrong. Cause I know about how regularly I start fires in the Cleve and at a HIGHER tier (fire resistance is tied to tier and hull) with LOWER fire chance I am noticeably starting more. It has smoke which is a huge deal, and radar, which is my baby. Nearly the same armor and about as easy/hard to cit depending on range/orientation (broadsiding at up close doesnt work as well as the Cleveland which pretty much gets nothing but Overpens when shot up close, angling is actually bad in a Cleveland) About the only way it feels worse than Cleveland is AA and that's a minor issue at best as that's what Smoke's for.

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4 minutes ago, crzyhawk said:

Try to gunfight without the smoke though, and you'd find she's quite weak.  It's doable, but you're going to be hurt, badly.  Without smoke, you'd just a gimped Cleveland.

Yeah, I radared some smoke in an Atlanta, expecting to find a tasty DD, and found a Belfast instead.  First salvo of 5-inch stopped her engines, and it got pretty ugly for her, although someone else got the kill.  As you say, she's a beast in smoke, but...

 

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A well played Cleveland will rip a well played Belfast to shreds in a straight gunfight.  I kill them regularly, but I am...while not a unicum Belfast driver, I don't suck with it.  Something that many don't seem to know is that Belfast's bow is overmatched by 203mm.  You can shove citadels right down her throat.

Edited by crzyhawk

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4 minutes ago, mavfin87 said:

Yeah, I radared some smoke in an Atlanta, expecting to find a tasty DD, and found a Belfast instead.  First salvo of 5-inch stopped her engines, and it got pretty ugly for her, although someone else got the kill.  As you say, she's a beast in smoke, but...

 

I'm finding it to do fine outside of smoke. If you know how to use a Cleveland, or are used to a Budy, it plays outside of the smoke more or less identically with better range than the Cleveland a bit better gun handling than the Budy. Just with radar. Which is awesome. This might be my new favorite DD hunter. Like this feels like when I went from playing only USN DD's to playing RU DD's and found them to be a straight upgrade in most of the meaningful ways (to a gunboat DD). Like they are both seriously easy mode of their respective types.

Edited by _RC1138

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20 minutes ago, crzyhawk said:

I don't use DE, I think it's generally a waste of 3 captain skill points, but I'm not getting into that argument again.  IFHE is still quite the waste on an RN CL though.

Why I have a specific captain for Belfast only. And that ship is a holy terror with IEHE and DE.

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Just now, IronWolfV said:

Why I have a specific captain for Belfast only. And that ship is a holy terror with IEHE and DE.

It's a holy terror without it too, I assure you.  I also use a dedicated Belfast captain.  I had DE, I dumped it.

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2 minutes ago, crzyhawk said:

It's a holy terror without it too, I assure you.  I also use a dedicated Belfast captain.  I had DE, I dumped it.

Oh she is. But it's always fun to slug a tier 8 BB on the nose and pen. Ship is OP. Personally I think the way to fix it, make players choose between radar and smoke. Just my 2 cents.

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6 minutes ago, _RC1138 said:

I'm finding it to do fine outside of smoke. If you know how to use a Cleveland, or are used to a Budy, it plays outside of the smoke more or less identically with better range than the Cleveland a bit better gun handling than the Budy. Just with radar. Which is awesome. This might be my new favorite DD hunter. 

Yeah, probably bad for anyone cruiser or DD sized to be surprised that way at that range.

 

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While that would work, I don't see them nerfing a premium.  I think the best way to fix it now, is to offer a heal in place of the radar, and make players choose.  if they did make you choose between smoke and radar, I'd miss my radar, but I'd do fine without it.

Edited by crzyhawk

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10 minutes ago, _RC1138 said:

I'm finding it to do fine outside of smoke. If you know how to use a Cleveland, or are used to a Budy, it plays outside of the smoke more or less identically with better range than the Cleveland a bit better gun handling than the Budy. Just with radar. Which is awesome. This might be my new favorite DD hunter. Like this feels like when I went from playing only USN DD's to playing RU DD's and found them to be a straight upgrade in most of the meaningful ways (to a gunboat DD). Like they are both seriously easy mode of their respective types.

Once you get some more games in it, you'll learn it's weaknesses.  BB players hate it even more than DD players do.  They'll come off a broadside Pensacola to shoot at an angled Belfast.  I've been known to break stealth in it in an attempt to take heat off other players being focused.  The hatred for Belfast is real.

 

I tend to play very aggressively, I like to be forward and I like open water.

Edited by crzyhawk

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5 minutes ago, crzyhawk said:

While that would work, I don't see them nerfing a premium.  I think the best way to fix it now, is to offer a heal in place of the radar, and make players choose.  if they did, I'd miss my radar, but I'd do fine without it.

I'll sign that, despite the fact that i have had her since Day 1,and am not that good in her...

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25 minutes ago, _RC1138 said:

A bit? It's not a bit at all. It is *blatantly* overpowered. I just pulled 5 wins in a row placing top on 4/5. This thing is truly ridiculous. If I had a UK Capt with my Cleveland loadout on it this thing would be unbeatable. IFHE on 152mm guns can damage entire hulls of every ship in it's MM spread and only a few of the T10's have sections that can't be penned by IFHE 152mm's. Like playing against this thing is annoying but I usually brushed it off as my own failings but now I am certain this is the definition of PTW. Nothing at it's MM spread can compare. Even without IFHE it's dominating. Anyone that defends this is just lying to themselves.

It seems you've never encountered understatement before. Note, I did propose certain nerfs - instead of blind raging - to the ship in my post. 

 

Mind you, I was going to say that my stats in the Fiji and Belfast were essentially the same, but Belfast does do 10k more damage on average. Still, it didn't endure a stock ship and totally stock captain grind that my Fiji did. 

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