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Psycodiver

RN BBs, Annoying and hardly OP: Opinion piece

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I noticed something about a couple weeks ago and kept seeing it again and again through every battle involving RN BBs, they utterly annoying to play, to have on my team and to have on the enemy team. Lets focus on player actions, 90% of the players I come across playing them firing nothing but HE with the rest firing a mix of mostly HE and some AP. Why is this annoying you ask, well because most of those players don't focus on a enemy unless its the only enemy to fire at. I have watched countless times as friendly and enemy RN BBs fire on 1 ship, start a fire or two and then switch targets, basically trying to light every ship on fire. Sure they can rack up a bunch of damage but they don't put ships down. I noticed most other BBs will keep focus on 1 enemy till its dead, this has its own issues obviously because of target fixation. I can and have easily 1v1 and even 1v2 several RN BBs in my KM, IJN, and USN BBs because they lack the alpha strike when just firing HE where as I keep pounding them with AP. Heck I've found most of the time I can sail broadside to them and when they fire I can turn away and usually cause the majority of the shells to hit the water or shatter against my belt armor. The only reason to consider them dangerous at all is if their kept unfocused like any fire breathing cruiser like the Atlanta or Molotov. Point of this is firing just HE lacks the Alpha strike needed to put down any BB nor most cruisers aside from the random detonation. Just utterly annoying to fight and to have fighting with me

 

Sorry if this is coming off as a whine thread but I just can't help but notice it over and over again and maybe its time for another break

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41 minutes ago, Psycodiver said:

I noticed something about a couple weeks ago and kept seeing it again and again through every battle involving RN BBs, they utterly annoying to play, to have on my team and to have on the enemy team. Lets focus on player actions, 90% of the players I come across playing them firing nothing but HE with the rest firing a mix of mostly HE and some AP. Why is this annoying you ask, well because most of those players don't focus on a enemy unless its the only enemy to fire at. I have watched countless times as friendly and enemy RN BBs fire on 1 ship, start a fire or two and then switch targets, basically trying to light every ship on fire. Sure they can rack up a bunch of damage but they don't put ships down. I noticed most other BBs will keep focus on 1 enemy till its dead, this has its own issues obviously because of target fixation. I can and have easily 1v1 and even 1v2 several RN BBs in my KM, IJN, and USN BBs because they lack the alpha strike when just firing HE where as I keep pounding them with AP. Heck I've found most of the time I can sail broadside to them and when they fire I can turn away and usually cause the majority of the shells to hit the water or shatter against my belt armor. The only reason to consider them dangerous at all is if their kept unfocused like any fire breathing cruiser like the Atlanta or Molotov. Point of this is firing just HE lacks the Alpha strike needed to put down any BB nor most cruisers aside from the random detonation. Just utterly annoying to fight and to have fighting with me

 

Sorry if this is coming off as a whine thread but I just can't help but notice it over and over again and maybe its time for another break

 

Overall, I am OK with how UK BBs play. They are essentially armoured cruisers in this game; the KGV doesn't really have strong enough AP at its tier to really hurt other battleships anyway. So flinging HE at multiple targets to set fires, induce DCP, and then set more fires that stick seems sensible. It is also not uncommon for the HE salvo to do a few k damage too, so the only marginal gain really is if you can regularly AP cit your enemy to "put them down". Whilst fire damage can be healed, that takes time, and most bbs are very low health after almost a minute of 4 fires burning. Low enough for the UK BB's teammates, who have real anti battleship AP, to help them out and kill stuff. 

 

Still, what you describe seems to bear out in the global stats - UK BBs have much higher damage but similar win rates. 

 

I I don't think this is bad: it still requires teamwork to win. 

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Giant wall of text. Didnt read. Formatting is your friend

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Setting fire to multiple target is better than focusing on a single target. Especially in a RN BB with meh AP against angled target. When i play my KGV, i set fire on one BB and if he repair the moment my guns are loaded, shooting him would be useless, i would waste some potential fire power. So i look around and chose another target. I don't mind wasting 26 sec and eating 5-8k damage, because i know if i'll start 2 fire or 1 in the next salvo, he will receive more damage than i received AND  since he used his repair he is vulnerable to other cruiser HE spam or DD torps.  Sure you might not be able to sink BB but you can allow other people to sink him for you by forcing the ennemi to use their DCP.  

 

 

 

Edited by AlcatrazNC

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1 hour ago, Psycodiver said:

I noticed something about a couple weeks ago and kept seeing it again and again through every battle involving RN BBs, they utterly annoying to play, to have on my team and to have on the enemy team. Lets focus on player actions, 90% of the players I come across playing them firing nothing but HE with the rest firing a mix of mostly HE and some AP. Why is this annoying you ask, well because most of those players don't focus on a enemy unless its the only enemy to fire at. I have watched countless times as friendly and enemy RN BBs fire on 1 ship, start a fire or two and then switch targets, basically trying to light every ship on fire. Sure they can rack up a bunch of damage but they don't put ships down. I noticed most other BBs will keep focus on 1 enemy till its dead, this has its own issues obviously because of target fixation. I can and have easily 1v1 and even 1v2 several RN BBs in my KM, IJN, and USN BBs because they lack the alpha strike when just firing HE where as I keep pounding them with AP. Heck I've found most of the time I can sail broadside to them and when they fire I can turn away and usually cause the majority of the shells to hit the water or shatter against my belt armor. The only reason to consider them dangerous at all is if their kept unfocused like any fire breathing cruiser like the Atlanta or Molotov. Point of this is firing just HE lacks the Alpha strike needed to put down any BB nor most cruisers aside from the random detonation. Just utterly annoying to fight and to have fighting with me

 

Sorry if this is coming off as a whine thread but I just can't help but notice it over and over again and maybe its time for another break

xRgXmID.jpg

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They're not OP or underpowered in my opinion, the ammo situation is just weird. It makes you actually think what to shoot rather than fire AP at everything except DDs. I personally prefer the usual set up of good AP, situational HE; but this works, it's just kind of annoying with a HE spammer that is nearly guaranteed to torch you twice with one well aimed salvo.

The thing that concerns me the most is actually that the KGV looks like it's so easy to kill from the front against other BBs, the frontal bulkhead is not that good with a large amount of the citadel only being protected by 51mm of armor in the front behind the 25mm thick bow plating which any gun 15" or bigger will overmatch. But I've been told the KGV sucks anyway. 

 

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1 hour ago, FireAndHEspam said:

Giant wall of text. Didnt read. Formatting is your friend

^This!  100% This.

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1 hour ago, FireAndHEspam said:

Giant wall of text. Didnt read. Formatting is your friend

 

6 minutes ago, Crucis said:

^This!  100% This.

 

Formatting may be the OP's friend, but giant wall of text it is not. Unless, perhaps, both of you are children who consider a tweet to be the limits of prose. I have no idea how you'll survive uni and/or the real world if you object to a short passage such as the OP's. 

 

And flogging a dead horse it is, but if that was a real threshold then a substantial minority of threads on this forum would not exist. 

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2 hours ago, Psycodiver said:

I noticed something about a couple weeks ago and kept seeing it again and again through every battle involving RN BBs, they utterly annoying to play, to have on my team and to have on the enemy team. Lets focus on player actions, 90% of the players I come across playing them firing nothing but HE with the rest firing a mix of mostly HE and some AP. Why is this annoying you ask, well because most of those players don't focus on a enemy unless its the only enemy to fire at. I have watched countless times as friendly and enemy RN BBs fire on 1 ship, start a fire or two and then switch targets, basically trying to light every ship on fire. Sure they can rack up a bunch of damage but they don't put ships down. I noticed most other BBs will keep focus on 1 enemy till its dead, this has its own issues obviously because of target fixation. I can and have easily 1v1 and even 1v2 several RN BBs in my KM, IJN, and USN BBs because they lack the alpha strike when just firing HE where as I keep pounding them with AP. Heck I've found most of the time I can sail broadside to them and when they fire I can turn away and usually cause the majority of the shells to hit the water or shatter against my belt armor. The only reason to consider them dangerous at all is if their kept unfocused like any fire breathing cruiser like the Atlanta or Molotov. Point of this is firing just HE lacks the Alpha strike needed to put down any BB nor most cruisers aside from the random detonation. Just utterly annoying to fight and to have fighting with me

 

Sorry if this is coming off as a whine thread but I just can't help but notice it over and over again and maybe its time for another break

Honestly, don't blame the players.  Blame WG for the crappy design of the entire line.  Is it any surprise that when you have a line of HE spamming BB's that the players of those HE spamming BBs will play them like any other HE spamming ship?  That is, get a fire started on an enemy (particularly a BB) then switch to another target (preferably a BB) to start the next fire.

IMO, if you want RN BB's to act more like traditional BB's (traditional relative to the game's BB meta), then the design of the RN BB's should have been one that works with the traditional BB meta, that of a tough, AP slinging battleship.  It's probably too late now, but I wish that the devs would take a serious look at redesigning the RN BBs around a more traditional BB meta.  The BB's themselves are generally OK otherwise.

I think that such a BB redesign could be done with the following steps.  

1. Reduce the fire chance on RN BB HE and reduce the 1/4 thing to the standard 1/6 value as on most other nation's BBs.  But keep the high HE raw damage value, for historical reasons.  This would seem to make RN HE better than most, but not so great that it totally trumps the use of AP.

2. Make RN AP similar to all other nations' BB AP, relative to the gun/shell sizes, of course.

 

Beyond this, I personally would like to see the following things.

3. Remove the super heal on higher tier RN BBs in favor of a normal heal.

4. Increase the HP totals on those same higher tier RN BBs to "normal" levels, to counter the removal of the super heal.

 

I think that with these four steps, we'd end up with an RN BB line that fit the traditional BB meta for the game much better.  And rather than having the RN's "national flavor" (I hate this concept) be HE, let it be more like tough ships (though without the German turtleback scheme) and fairly accurate (than average) guns.

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6 minutes ago, UltimateNewbie said:

Formatting may be the OP's friend, but giant wall of text it is not. Unless, perhaps, both of you are children who consider a tweet to be the limits of prose. I have no idea how you'll survive uni and/or the real world if you object to a short passage such as the OP's. 

And flogging a dead horse it is, but if that was a real threshold then a substantial minority of threads on this forum would not exist. 

It's not a "giant" wall of text.  But it IS too long for a single paragraph.  And for the record, I'm 58 years old and survived quite well, thank you very much, in college.  And I know the value of formatting.  And I'd hardly call the OP's post short by forum standards.  It was moderate in length, and needed to be split into at least another paragraph. 

Furthermore, comparing college papers to forum posts isn't a good comparison, as I'd judge them to have different standards of what constitutes "too long".  In a forum post, if a single paragraph covers an entire screen, then it's too long IMO.  OTOH, if the OP's post was on the typewritten page, it's entirely possible that I'd judge it to be ok for a single paragraph.  Different standards for different mediums.

 

Edited by Crucis

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20 minutes ago, UltimateNewbie said:

 

 

Formatting may be the OP's friend, but giant wall of text it is not. Unless, perhaps, both of you are children who consider a tweet to be the limits of prose. I have no idea how you'll survive uni and/or the real world if you object to a short passage such as the OP's. 

 

And flogging a dead horse it is, but if that was a real threshold then a substantial minority of threads on this forum would not exist. 


LOL. Seriously? Probably isn't length, but formatting. Here... let's more properly format...
 

Quote

I noticed something about a couple weeks ago and kept seeing it again and again through every battle involving RN BBs: they are utterly annoying to play, to have on my team and to have on the enemy team.

Lets focus on player actions. 90% of the players I come across playing them firing nothing but HE, with the rest firing a mix of mostly HE and some AP. Why is this annoying you ask? Well, because most of those players don't focus on a enemy unless its the only enemy to fire at. I have watched countless times as friendly and enemy RN BBs fire on 1 ship, start a fire or two and then switch targets, basically trying to light every ship on fire. Sure they can rack up a bunch of damage but they don't put ships down. I noticed most other BBs will keep focus on 1 enemy till its dead, this has its own issues obviously because of target fixation.

Because of this, I can and have easily 1v1 and even 1v2 several RN BBs in my KM, IJN, and USN BBs because they lack the alpha strike when just firing HE, whereas I keep pounding them with AP. Heck, I've found most of the time I can sail broadside to them and when they fire, I can turn away and usually cause the majority of the shells to hit the water or shatter against my belt armor. The only reason to consider them dangerous at all is if they are kept unfocused, like any fire breathing cruiser like the Atlanta or Molotov.

The point of this is that firing just HE lacks the Alpha strike needed to put down any BB nor most cruisers aside from the random detonation. Just utterly annoying to fight and to have fighting with me.

 

Isn't that easier to read? I am a prominent blogger in my area and fight hard to reduce text walls. They are totally offputting to potential readers. 

Edited by Taichunger
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Formatting is a bit hard on a cell phone also, now that I'm back on my computer I can see the issue but I hardly think its much of a deal breaker considering some of the spelling and run on sentences I see regularly around here.

 

I'm fine with their HE as is, my problem is its the best choice because their AP is really bad, I did back to back Training Room sessions earlier tonight with the Orion vs the Wyoming against several Kasiers at various ranges and the Wyoming easily out damaged with both using AP. I say buff up the AP to normal values, maybe A hulls for the WWI era ships get bad AP since that was a thing for them. Give the players a viable option and honestly the heal should be a USN thing since RN BBs historically went under pretty often (Warspite excluded) while USN ships were known for their damage control abilities

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2 hours ago, AlcatrazNC said:

Setting fire to multiple target is better than focusing on a single target. Especially in a RN BB with meh AP against angled target. When i play my KGV, i set fire on one BB and if he repair the moment my guns are loaded, shooting him would be useless, i would waste some potential fire power. So i look around and chose another target. I don't mind wasting 26 sec and eating 5-8k damage, because i know if i'll start 2 fire or 1 in the next salvo, he will receive more damage than i received AND  since he used his repair he is vulnerable to other cruiser HE spam or DD torps.  Sure you might not be able to sink BB but you can allow other people to sink him for you by forcing the ennemi to use their DCP.  

 

 

 

Not really because a ship thats alive is a ship that can still shoot you, focusing it down, especially a low HP ship, will always be better than setting a bunch of fires on several ships. I have yet to have RN BB burn me to death or really be the cause of my demise anymore than the average cruiser flame thrower, I've been sunk a heck of allot more to focused AP fire though by either taking several big penetrating hits or nailing my citadel

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Here's the thing, all the RN BB crying, it's trying to fix the symptom, not the problem. Given the thin armour and lower HP, the super heal is kind of a wash really if it ends up being damage they can't really repair. Most of the complaints come from fires and fire starting it seems which really just ties back to the issue fire is OP as hell. It can easily be as, if not more, effective than torps you get to stacking them. The damage rates they can get are insane and an be stacked right back on with relative ease. Take it from a guy that plays USN CV's (reliant on DB fires) and German BB's (also somewhat reliant on fire setting), it needs a slight nerf to just how much damage it does. I also like the caliber/4 they get, especially because unlike some German BB's, they can make some real use of it with IFHE. 

 

Though,it does not help that "Fire chance" is misleading - ever been hit by DB's but never have a fire start? Well, HE from DB's actually has over 100% fire chance yet sometimes starts no fires. it's a really weird stat that doesn't convey the true nature of the ships ability to start fires.

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Fire may not kill ships outright, but it does have one particularly useful purpose; it sends ships scurrying for cover.  It's common knowledge that repairing a fire while under HE attack is simply going to land you with more fires that cannot be put out.  Therefore, many captains will make a beeline for the closest rock, so that they can hidey-hole behind it and recover.  While I agree that focus-firing ships is very important to winning matches, starting fires can knock the momentum right out of an enemy push.  Some ships will turn away and stop firing in order to go dark, some ships will hide, etc.  Either way, it has a psychological effect that tends to break up formations.  In that sense, it buys time on a losing flank, and slows down pursuing ships while you fall back.

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18 minutes ago, WanderingGhost said:

Here's the thing, all the RN BB crying, it's trying to fix the symptom, not the problem. Given the thin armour and lower HP, the super heal is kind of a wash really if it ends up being damage they can't really repair. Most of the complaints come from fires and fire starting it seems which really just ties back to the issue fire is OP as hell. It can easily be as, if not more, effective than torps you get to stacking them. The damage rates they can get are insane and an be stacked right back on with relative ease. Take it from a guy that plays USN CV's (reliant on DB fires) and German BB's (also somewhat reliant on fire setting), it needs a slight nerf to just how much damage it does. I also like the caliber/4 they get, especially because unlike some German BB's, they can make some real use of it with IFHE. 

 

Though,it does not help that "Fire chance" is misleading - ever been hit by DB's but never have a fire start? Well, HE from DB's actually has over 100% fire chance yet sometimes starts no fires. it's a really weird stat that doesn't convey the true nature of the ships ability to start fires.

This should help with that.

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Fire

 

Seriously, though. It's not just the HE that has so many people up in arms. It's everything else the conqueror has in conjunction with this.

 

Also, where the hay does it say that DB's have a fre chance of over 100

Edited by Drago_Ryder

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2 hours ago, AlcatrazNC said:

Setting fire to multiple target is better than focusing on a single target.

 

I agree. Each ship and ammo type has its place. If you are driving a firestarter then your job is to start fires. Starting multiple fires helps your team by causing general damage to as many of the other team as possible. 

Edited by Snargfargle

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My problem with the RN BBs lies on the threat they pose to Cruisers, Destroyers, and how they buff CV power by being present.

 

They kill DDs with a single HE salvo, and break nearly every module

 

They citadel Cruisers with HE.

 

Cruisers and DDs, with small exceptions, don't have a heal to repair the damage.

 

A single HE salvo will strip entire ships of AA, magnifying the CV power against that ship greatly.

 

Battleships are easier to look at and say not much is wrong, but you can't always lool at the least dynamic and engaging ships in the game and act like everything else has to be fine if they are.

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3 hours ago, Crucis said:

I think that with these four steps, we'd end up with an RN BB line that fit the traditional BB meta for the game much better.  And rather than having the RN's "national flavor" (I hate this concept) be HE, let it be more like tough ships (though without the German turtleback scheme) and fairly accurate (than average) guns.

So you want them to be the same as every other BB...

How boring.

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4 hours ago, Edselman said:

It makes you actually think what to shoot rather than fire AP at everything except DDs.

Wait, you fire HE at destroyers??? You're doing it wrong man. Wait for them to angle and let them have the AP. AP pens ftw...

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1 hour ago, Ducky_shot said:

Wait, you fire HE at destroyers??? You're doing it wrong man. Wait for them to angle and let them have the AP. AP pens ftw...

 

AP or HE, UK BBs annihilate DDs. I've wiped them out with either. Conk simply dismisses them forthwith. 

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44 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

 

AP or HE, UK BBs annihilate DDs. I've wiped them out with either. Conk simply dismisses them forthwith. 

 

Any BB AP annihilate DD, it's not just the UK. I guess one day BB AP will overpen DD no matter what angle.

 

4 hours ago, Psycodiver said:

Not really because a ship thats alive is a ship that can still shoot you, focusing it down, especially a low HP ship, will always be better than setting a bunch of fires on several ships. I have yet to have RN BB burn me to death or really be the cause of my demise anymore than the average cruiser flame thrower, I've been sunk a heck of allot more to focused AP fire though by either taking several big penetrating hits or nailing my citadel

 

If i have no other target well yes I will shoot that low life target but as a BB you don't wanna waste 26 or 30 sec reload on a target with 1% HP.  I just F3 the target with low HP and shoot at other target.

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8 hours ago, SilhoutteFG said:

So you want them to be the same as every other BB...

How boring.

How REAL!!!  I prefer that the game do a better job of emulating historical reality is a simple and reasonable way. Which, BTW, does NOT mean that I want a hardcore sim!!!!!

It's not boring to me at all!  Not in the slightest!  But IMO it also makes for better game play.  If you want to play a game with a bunch of faked up stuff and annoying national flavors, go play some space game, where there is no historical reality to be respected or emulated.  But in WoWS, good game play would be enhanced by emulating historical reality more.  In the case of the RN BBs, that would mean that they should function similarly to all other nations' battleships. 

Early dreadnoughts often had varying turret designs, but over a fairly short period of time, BB design transitioned to superfiring turrets and did away with wing turrets and waist turrets.  Why?  Because the layout was better!  All early dreadnoughts used coal fired boilers, but later on transitioned to oil fired ones?  Why?  Because they were more efficient, not to mention they didn't spew out massive black clouds of smoke that made tracking them ridiculously easy.  In short, all BB designs ended up coming together at around the same place.  Not because their designers wanted to create similar, "boring" ships, but because they were adopting what were clearly the most efficient, best practices.

And ya know something, BB game play is a LOT better when all BBs are following the same general meta, i.e. BB's should be firing AP at each other, because it places more value on angling one's armor and aiming.  Heck, it places value on strong armor at all.  When you have BBs spamming HE, there's not much value in having strong belt armor protecting your citadel because those HE spewing BBs aren't aiming for the hull in the first place.  They're aiming for the superstructure!

So, in closing, this idea that historical reality and the AP-centric BB meta are "boring" is utter nonsense and has no place in this game.

 

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2 minutes ago, Crucis said:

How REAL!!!  I prefer that the game do a better job of emulating historical reality is a simple and reasonable way. Which, BTW, does NOT mean that I want a hardcore sim!!!!!

It's not boring to me at all!  Not in the slightest!  But IMO it also makes for better game play.  If you want to play a game with a bunch of faked up stuff and annoying national flavors, go play some space game, where there is no historical reality to be respected or emulated.  But in WoWS, good game play would be enhanced by emulating historical reality more.  In the case of the RN BBs, that would mean that they should function similarly to all other nations' battleships. 

Early dreadnoughts often had varying turret designs, but over a fairly short period of time, BB design transitioned to superfiring turrets and did away with wing turrets and waist turrets.  Why?  Because the layout was better!  All early dreadnoughts used coal fired boilers, but later on transitioned to oil fired ones?  Why?  Because they were more efficient, not to mention they didn't spew out massive black clouds of smoke that made tracking them ridiculously easy.  In short, all BB designs ended up coming together at around the same place.  Not because their designers wanted to create similar, "boring" ships, but because they were adopting what were clearly the most efficient, best practices.

And ya know something, BB game play is a LOT better when all BBs are following the same general meta, i.e. BB's should be firing AP at each other, because it places more value on angling one's armor and aiming.  Heck, it places value on strong armor at all.  When you have BBs spamming HE, there's not much value in having strong belt armor protecting your citadel because those HE spewing BBs aren't aiming for the hull in the first place.  They're aiming for the superstructure!

So, in closing, this idea that historical reality and the AP-centric BB meta are "boring" is utter nonsense and has no place in this game.

 

Countering the bow in, angling meta is precisely what the rn He was DESIGNED TO DO. Add in enterprise Graf and DW torps, and it's clear that was wgs goal. 

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5 hours ago, AlcatrazNC said:

 

Any BB AP annihilate DD, it's not just the UK. I guess one day BB AP will overpen DD no matter what angle.

 

 

If i have no other target well yes I will shoot that low life target but as a BB you don't wanna waste 26 or 30 sec reload on a target with 1% HP.  I just F3 the target with low HP and shoot at other target.

1. I hope that that never happens.  I look at those relatively rare "major damage" (1/3 base damage) hits on DD's as being the rough equivalent of citadel hits on larger ships.  But it's generally not something you can depend on getting.  As for BB AP annihilating DD's, this is only really true if you can reliably land multiple (overpenning) hits.  In general, HE is more reliable.  But of course, unless you're in an RN BB, you're not likely to be loading HE all that often.

2. I disagree with this sentiment. Getting guns off the map is paramount in this game, just like in WoT.  And BTW, there's no reason that you have to fire a full volley at the gravely wounded ship.  Fire just one turret, if you don't want to "waste" a full volley on him.

I will say that I don't always fire my BBs' guns at such a 1% health enemy.  It depends on how many team mates I have nearby, particularly cruisers or DDs.  If there are plenty of such team mates, I'll do what you do and just call out the target.  But if I don't think that there are enough friendlies nearby or it's later in the battle and there are simply fewer friendlies, period, I'll do it myself because sinking that 1% enemy ship will be worth the reload.

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