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Mariofan1ish

Is nerfing Smoke REALLY a good idea?

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In my latest romp around the PTS (test for patch 6.12), I neglected to look at the specifics of everything involved. Imagine my surprise when an allied Shimakaze laid a smoke barrier for me, I ducked my Monarch into it, fired my 18km-ranged guns and saw my detection radius shoot to 17km while firmly inside the smoke. Later that exact same match, the same Shima laid a smoke wall for 3 BBs trying to take a cap point. I fired my guns from stealth BEHIND the smoke this time, and somehow still got detected by surface, despite the smoke being between us very firmly. The enemy DDs were more towards the back of their team at that point in the match, and the enemy team was far more than 18km away from me everywhere on the map except for the area blocked by the smoke.

 

Let me preface this by saying that I understand BBs firing from smoke is obnoxious, as would be a ship like the Des Moines or Chapayev in the same position. But the bigger issue I'm looking at here is that the Shimakaze played a very team-focused game, and wasn't rewarded for any of it. With smoke the way it is now, a destroyer can do great things for his team, but if detection shoots up like it does on the PTS, I fear that will totally remove team play for another class and render the game even more passive than it already is (ironically worsening the very issue it's trying to fix) by giving Battleships and most Cruisers very little reason to push ahead early alongside the DDs on their team or Division as they'll just get seen anyways, even without the use of Radar.

 

The only fix for 'passiveness' I see at this point in the game is to rework the Carriers like we were promised earlier this year. Their ability to spot so many ships at once at such great distance is what keeps teams mobile and aggressive, pursuing and claiming kills while the CV itself is chipping in to damage enemies caught out of position. The moment CVs stopped being common, we can see a sudden increase in camping. There's nothing to counteract it anymore, either through scouting or heavy damage on camping ships, and unfortuanately, nerfing smoke like this is just going to promote players to hang back even further than they do already.

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Personally, I'd love to see all offensive smoke go away.  The entire concept is offensive.  Some ships can't function without smoke, you say?  Then fix the damned ships so that they CAN!!!

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Good idea? Hmm... no... a good idea was heavier than air flight. Now that was a good idea. 

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7 minutes ago, Herr_Reitz said:

Good idea? Hmm... no... a good idea was heavier than air flight. Now that was a good idea. 

Heavier than air flight?  Nah, that idea will never get off the ground!  (says the guy the day before the Wright Brothers flight...)

 

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21 minutes ago, Crucis said:

Personally, I'd love to see all offensive smoke go away.  The entire concept is offensive.  Some ships can't function without smoke, you say?  Then fix the damned ships so that they CAN!!!

Because hiding behind islands is a lot more fun or you want every ship to be the same ? 

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Honestly, I only smoke friendlies when the opportunity arises, but I don't go out thinking I'm going to smoke anyone. Even at that, chances are you'll only get one.

That's what Gun Bloom did to a "long term" DD main who use to do nothing but solid team smoking.

 

At this point in the game, I don't really think anything is going to solve passiveness.

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1 hour ago, khorender_1 said:

Because hiding behind islands is a lot more fun or you want every ship to be the same ? 

Ships are essentially the same in the basics.  These "differences" are completely faked up crap.  Let all ships stand or fall based on how their actual designers designed them, plus some reasonable balancing.

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The point of this thread wasn't the effectiveness of specific ships, it was whether or not we can still get decent team play with Smoke getting butchered like this. There's no reason to smoke up teammates anymore if this goes through, and that bothers me greatly.

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There is lots of things one can still do and have team play with out smoke. A few examples for DD's since that is what this thread is about.

1) Spotting so the enemy can't drop off detection and escape.

2) Launch torps at a BB from a place so he is forced to eat your torps or turn and give one or more friendly BB's a perfect broadside.

3) cap for your team

4) Run down and kill or at least keep enemy DD's lite up that are trying to torp your teams BB's

5) Give smoke to a alley that is being focused fire, giving them a chance to heal or escape

I think it is safe to say that those that want to be a team player will still have lots to do.

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Smoke use has gotten insane. Quite often I cant see anything to shoot at for up to 5 minutes into a battle. IMHO, smoke needs to be removed from all ships except DDs.

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13 minutes ago, ReddNekk said:

Smoke use has gotten insane. Quite often I cant see anything to shoot at for up to 5 minutes into a battle. IMHO, smoke needs to be removed from all ships except DDs.


Smoke does not last forever and removing it would punish the destroyer and cruiser lines. This game has already become a BB based game. Making negative changes to smoke would only alienate CA and DD players further.

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8 minutes ago, Shadowfigment said:


Smoke does not last forever and removing it would punish the destroyer and cruiser lines. This game has already become a BB based game. Making negative changes to smoke would only alienate CA and DD players further.

Funny, before the Brit CLs came out when no Cruisers had smoke, Cruiser players didn't feel alienated. I'm mostly a Cruiser player and I would'nt feel disgusted in the least if my Brit CLs no longer had smoke, which only draws torpedoes anyway. I'd ADAPT. And I'm sure most other CL players would too. (We leave the sniviling to the DDrivers) BTW, I never said to remove it completely. Read my post again.

Edited by ReddNekk

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10 hours ago, Koschka said:

There is lots of things one can still do and have team play with out smoke. A few examples for DD's since that is what this thread is about.

1) Spotting so the enemy can't drop off detection and escape.

2) Launch torps at a BB from a place so he is forced to eat your torps or turn and give one or more friendly BB's a perfect broadside.

3) cap for your team

4) Run down and kill or at least keep enemy DD's lite up that are trying to torp your teams BB's

5) Give smoke to a alley that is being focused fire, giving them a chance to heal or escape

I think it is safe to say that those that want to be a team player will still have lots to do.


Assume you have a good DD player who engages the forward lines and actively spots, smoke is a good defensive tactic to evade possible detection from other DD's and CA's doing the same. Aggressive players contest caps. When things get to hot for aggressive DD players and squishy CA players, smoke is a good way to get out with some HP left. If you nerf or remove smoke, DD play might revert to passive play styles. Adaptation means they will stop spotting forward positions. 

Torpedoes are a great weapon and a game changer when they hit a broadside player. However metal fishes are not guaranteed to hit 100% of the time. The only way to guarantee 100% strike is to get close enough to violate detection range, which usually means instant death in open water.

Nerfing smoke means DD's become small island hugging ships waiting for perfect ambush moments while praying to RNGJesus that they have enough juke to avoid AP deletion. 

Edited by Shadowfigment
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17 minutes ago, Shadowfigment said:


Assume you have a good DD player who engages the forward lines and actively spots, smoke is a good defensive tactic to evade possible detection from other DD's and CA's doing the same. Aggressive players contest caps. When things get to hot for aggressive DD players and squishy CA players, smoke is a good way to get out with some HP left. If you nerf or remove smoke, DD play might revert to passive play styles. Adaptation means they will stop spotting forward positions. 

Torpedoes are a great weapon and a game changer when they hit a broadside player. However metal fishes are not guaranteed to hit 100% of the time. The only way to guarantee 100% strike is to get close enough to violate detection range, which usually means instant death in open water.

Nerfing smoke means DD's become small island hugging ships waiting for perfect ambush moments while praying to RNGJesus that they have enough juke to avoid AP deletion. 

 

Well the topic is not about how good the DD player is, it is  about how nerfing smoke removes team play. All I said is there is many ways to help your team as a DD that does not involve using smoke for them to shoot from. So I don't see this having a big impact on team player to good players.

Didn't say the torps was a for sure hit. I said launch them from a direction that forces the enemy BB to either run into your torps or turn giving one or more of your allys a broadside shot. If you launch the torps and they are remotely close to the target they target will have to turn to avoid them. Accomplish the team play aspect.

I completely disagree with smoke, I honestly rarely use smoke. In fact I don't run smoke the man Russian DD line and take heal and I don't run smoke on the IJN DD's and run torp acc. I have always used smoke defensively mostly on the ones I even keep it on. So since have smoke on only half my DD's I think I can safely say they won't be island hugging ships waiting for the perfect ambush, since I don't do that and I have great or better ratings in all of my DD's at the high tiers.

Mostly I stopped using offensive smoke once radar became common, to much risk to sit in smoke. I would drop smoke for allies which will no longer be useful for them offensively. But that never effected how good I personally did in a DD.

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The Russian DDs aren't even DDs to begin with though, they're shoddy cruisers with jet engines strapped to their asses. And a lot of what you said a DD can do is either selfish play (Capping for massive XP and using Torpedoes are not actively assisting the team. They're what you're expected to do in the first place) or assuming your teammate is coordinated and smart enough not to fire their guns in smoke anymore. And remember that that's becoming increasingly unlikely given how far the bar keeps falling in this game.

 

Besides, if you can't fire your guns, there's no point in remaining in that cloud at all, as it's just going to start sponging up Torpedoes, and you may as well just continue falling back instead. It'll help people retreat, but it's removing a valuable and vital part of offensive team action.

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Leave the smoke alone. Period.

Got a problem with that? Learn how to counter it within the current parameters of the game.

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Hey

For all of those whining about BB's sitting in smoke; In random, I just don't see that happening very often and when they do it's usually to try and escape some focused fire and a team mate smokes up for him to fight another day.  Maybe if you want to eliminate smoke camping by anyone then make the smoke duration short enough where someone could escape but not so long that they can stay camped for long periods of time, that way it remains a defensive tool and a smaller offensive one.  The biggest threat right now to me is the insane HE fire percentage of the RN BB's.

 

Pete

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8 hours ago, Mariofan1ish said:

The Russian DDs aren't even DDs to begin with though, they're shoddy cruisers with jet engines strapped to their asses. And a lot of what you said a DD can do is either selfish play (Capping for massive XP and using Torpedoes are not actively assisting the team. They're what you're expected to do in the first place) or assuming your teammate is coordinated and smart enough not to fire their guns in smoke anymore. And remember that that's becoming increasingly unlikely given how far the bar keeps falling in this game.

 

Besides, if you can't fire your guns, there's no point in remaining in that cloud at all, as it's just going to start sponging up Torpedoes, and you may as well just continue falling back instead. It'll help people retreat, but it's removing a valuable and vital part of offensive team action.

 

I'm sorry, did you just say that playing the objective doesn't help the team?

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2 hours ago, sasquatch_research said:

Hey

For all of those whining about BB's sitting in smoke; In random, I just don't see that happening very often and when they do it's usually to try and escape some focused fire and a team mate smokes up for him to fight another day.  Maybe if you want to eliminate smoke camping by anyone then make the smoke duration short enough where someone could escape but not so long that they can stay camped for long periods of time, that way it remains a defensive tool and a smaller offensive one.  The biggest threat right now to me is the insane HE fire percentage of the RN BB's.

 

Pete

 Very rare I see BBs in smoke as well. If it does happen, it's usually in the advanced stages of the game where they're no longer on the periphery and positioning of both teams has led them to a more aggressive center battle. I'm personally a bit nervous that WG is going to take the detection when firing from smoke too far. If a BB firing from smoke is normally detected from 18km and instead it's 17km when in smoke, I think that is the opposite end of the spectrum of obnoxiousness of sitting in smoke and being undetectable until 2km. 

Please WG, be reasonable? Maybe 10km, but 17? 

Additionally, if you think about it, a ship firing from behind or within a smoke screen is only going to create an incredibly bright flash  that illuminates the cloud itself. You'll have an idea of where the ship is in the cloud, but actual range will be nearly impossible to precisely detect. It's like a cloud being illuminate by lightning, but you couldn't see the bolt (like cloud to cloud or heat lightning). You know the bolt was there, but it was hidden within the cloud and couldn't be seen. Additionally, if the ship is moving at a decent pace, you'd have absolutely no clue where it will be in the next 5 seconds because all you saw was a bright flash coming from heading X and it seems to be between 15 and 17km away. You might even briefly see an outline, but it's like a snapshot and nothing more.

It's kind of like sitting in a dark room with another person. Introduce a strobe light that flashes once every 5/7/12 seconds (3 in the case of Minotaur). Can you predict where the person will be when the strobe flashes in 12 more seconds? Definitively the answer will be no. 

Maybe a more ideal scenario with smoke is that the ship firing from smoke has some of the following traits:

1. Reduced detection depending on the caliber of gun
2. IF an enemy ship is within the detection zone of that caliber, then pick one of the two outcomes (up to opinion)
        2a. The ship is fully detected and visible for somewhere around 1 second and then concealed (strobe effect). It's enough to give position, but not determine with absolute confidence the speed / direction of the ship. It enables the opposing team to fire on the ship with much higher chance of hitting it. It also punishes anyone who just sits in the smoke without moving as they will be easy to target. Finally, it rewards ships that are using smoke to advance or retreat in that it will be harder for opposing ships to judge and hit a ship moving at speed when it does fire from smoke. Ships moving at speed will be unable to stay in smoke for very long and fire a limited number of salvos that are "concealed" by the smoke thereby reducing the effect of camping the screens. 
       2b. The ship is not fully detected, but WG introduces a circle on the ocean that displays approximate position of the ship and allowing players to better target ships hidden in smoke. We have circles showing the boundaries of the smoke, so why not be able to do this mechanic? The circle may be similar to the size of a targeted bomber drop (ALT+attack) and visible for a longer period of time - think 5 seconds. People sitting in smoke can still be punished by focused fire. The detection circle on the ocean does not move with the position of the ship and only shows approximate last location when the ship fired. This mechanic rewards a bit more those who are sitting in smoke than 2a, but may be balanced by the longer time the detection circle is visible. It also rewards players using smoke to advance/retreat whose ship is still moving. It will also simulate the idea that the cloud was illuminated in X heading at Y/Y+1 distance (10-11km, 11-12km, etc). 
3. The closer an enemy ship is to the ship sitting in smoke, the longer 2a/2b would be active for. For example, the closest detecting ship is 9km away from the ship in smoke, so 2a would be 1 second or 2b would be 5 seconds. However, if that ship was at 5km, then 2a would be 1.5-2 seconds and 2b 7-10 seconds. 
4. If choosing the 2b option, then the closer the detecting ship is to the ship sitting in smoke, then the more precise the detection circle displays on the ocean surface (in addition to sitting there longer).

 

These ideas allow smoke to still be a viable tactic, but not permanently. Cruisers and BBs cannot sit in smoke without moving and expect to live very long.

There. My contribution (without complaining) in hopefully a constructive manner. 

 

Edited by DMFDMinister

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38 minutes ago, SergeantHop said:

 

I'm sorry, did you just say that playing the objective doesn't help the team?

Obviously anything that nets the DD personal xp is just selfish even if it helps win the game and the only "team play" for a DD is to spot for his/her fleet and give them smoke so they can do lots of shooting and earn lots of kills and damage. Note that is not selfish on the teams part. :Smile_playing:

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2 hours ago, DMFDMinister said:

 Very rare I see BBs in smoke as well. If it does happen, it's usually in the advanced stages of the game where they're no longer on the periphery and positioning of both teams has led them to a more aggressive center battle. I'm personally a bit nervous that WG is going to take the detection when firing from smoke too far. If a BB firing from smoke is normally detected from 18km and instead it's 17km when in smoke, I think that is the opposite end of the spectrum of obnoxiousness of sitting in smoke and being undetectable until 2km. 

Please WG, be reasonable? Maybe 10km, but 17? 

Additionally, if you think about it, a ship firing from behind or within a smoke screen is only going to create an incredibly bright flash  that illuminates the cloud itself. You'll have an idea of where the ship is in the cloud, but actual range will be nearly impossible to precisely detect. It's like a cloud being illuminate by lightning, but you couldn't see the bolt (like cloud to cloud or heat lightning). You know the bolt was there, but it was hidden within the cloud and couldn't be seen. Additionally, if the ship is moving at a decent pace, you'd have absolutely no clue where it will be in the next 5 seconds because all you saw was a bright flash coming from heading X and it seems to be between 15 and 17km away. You might even briefly see an outline, but it's like a snapshot and nothing more.

It's kind of like sitting in a dark room with another person. Introduce a strobe light that flashes once every 5/7/12 seconds (3 in the case of Minotaur). Can you predict where the person will be when the strobe flashes in 12 more seconds? Definitively the answer will be no. 

Maybe a more ideal scenario with smoke is that the ship firing from smoke has some of the following traits:

1. Reduced detection depending on the caliber of gun
2. IF an enemy ship is within the detection zone of that caliber, then pick one of the two outcomes (up to opinion)
        2a. The ship is fully detected and visible for somewhere around 1 second and then concealed (strobe effect). It's enough to give position, but not determine with absolute confidence the speed / direction of the ship. It enables the opposing team to fire on the ship with much higher chance of hitting it. It also punishes anyone who just sits in the smoke without moving as they will be easy to target. Finally, it rewards ships that are using smoke to advance or retreat in that it will be harder for opposing ships to judge and hit a ship moving at speed when it does fire from smoke. Ships moving at speed will be unable to stay in smoke for very long and fire a limited number of salvos that are "concealed" by the smoke thereby reducing the effect of camping the screens. 
       2b. The ship is not fully detected, but WG introduces a circle on the ocean that displays approximate position of the ship and allowing players to better target ships hidden in smoke. We have circles showing the boundaries of the smoke, so why not be able to do this mechanic? The circle may be similar to the size of a targeted bomber drop (ALT+attack) and visible for a longer period of time - think 5 seconds. People sitting in smoke can still be punished by focused fire. The detection circle on the ocean does not move with the position of the ship and only shows approximate last location when the ship fired. This mechanic rewards a bit more those who are sitting in smoke than 2a, but may be balanced by the longer time the detection circle is visible. It also rewards players using smoke to advance/retreat whose ship is still moving. It will also simulate the idea that the cloud was illuminated in X heading at Y/Y+1 distance (10-11km, 11-12km, etc). 
3. The closer an enemy ship is to the ship sitting in smoke, the longer 2a/2b would be active for. For example, the closest detecting ship is 9km away from the ship in smoke, so 2a would be 1 second or 2b would be 5 seconds. However, if that ship was at 5km, then 2a would be 1.5-2 seconds and 2b 7-10 seconds. 
4. If choosing the 2b option, then the closer the detecting ship is to the ship sitting in smoke, then the more precise the detection circle displays on the ocean surface (in addition to sitting there longer).

 

These ideas allow smoke to still be a viable tactic, but not permanently. Cruisers and BBs cannot sit in smoke without moving and expect to live very long.

There. My contribution (without complaining) in hopefully a constructive manner. 

 

 Thinking about this a bit more, I'd also suggest that firing from smoke would likely illuminate the outline of other nearby ships. Hence, I believe other ships sitting in smoke close to a ship firing its guns should be affected by and subject to the same affects as the ship that has fired its guns. This will cause a few things:

1. Ships firing guns out of sync will cause more frequent detection of other nearby ships also in smoke
2. Ships will need to synchronize fire in order to minimize the drawbacks of sitting in smoke (this will be difficult)

3. The advantages of leveraging smoke for concealed fire are further diminished, but not eliminated.  

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On ‎10‎/‎7‎/‎2017 at 2:45 PM, Shadowfigment said:


Smoke does not last forever and removing it would punish the destroyer and cruiser lines. This game has already become a BB based game. Making negative changes to smoke would only alienate CA and DD players further.

Nonsense.  Offensive smoke should be removed.  Period.  Historically (and yes, I will damned well say "historically"!!!), smoke was a defensive tool for disengaging!

Alienate cruiser and destroyer players?  Having to learn to play without offensive smoke would be a challenge, not a punishment!  Face that challenge and adapt and overcome it!  Don't whine like a bunch of self-entitle special snowflakes!!!

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9 hours ago, Pigpen_721 said:

Leave the smoke alone. Period.

Got a problem with that? Learn how to counter it within the current parameters of the game.

Get rid of offensive smoke.  Period.

 

Got a problem with that?  Learn to adapt and overcome to new challenges, not whine about it like a self-entitled special snowflake.

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Smoke should be a defensive tool only..It is there to obscure your ship from the enemy. If you shoot in the smoke - your ship becomes spotted for 20 seconds. If you torp then your ship is spotted for 10 seconds. 

If an friendly ship is next to you within a certain range they get revealed also for the same seconds duration as mentioned.    I think its about as simple as its going to get unless some one chimes in.

The Smoke mechanic has to be fair as left on its own its too lopsided. IMO.   

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