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New GZ Test 1, a BB's Nightmare

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So just finished a match with an enemy GZ Test I. Now, you're probably used to the 3 squads of DBs that AP everything to death... now BBs prepare your sterns for:

3 squads of Torpedo Bombers with 6 (probably, was too busy trying to not die) bombers per squad each at T7-8 (kind of forgot). That's 18 torpedoes in 1 wave if they make it all through. These TBs also carry deep water torpedoes and are easily distinguishable as they have a horizontal line above the triangle marking & produce no wake. GZ also has 2 fighter squads each with 4 planes at T7 (...maybe). Yes my memory's fuzzy but I know I saw 3 squads of TBs with a bunch of red dots in each.

Now this match I was talking about was a horrible indicator of GZ's performance as the CV player was god awful, our Shokaku was great though. GZ literally flies all his planes into T9-10 AA & loses all reserves halfway into the match. I only got hit with 1 TB the entire match, it did hit harder than IJN TBs, probably the same or more than a USN TB. It's like having a pre-nerf Midway at T8 that can't hit DDs. :cap_rambo:

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I believe that it is 5 planes per squad and 3 squads total of 15 torpedoes in a X shaped pattern..  So if you are paying attention and turning into the fighters yes you will take a couple.  How he stacks the attack will be important.  This is one pattern if used in a cross drop that is a royal pain to out maneuver.  But at T8 where they will see most of their battles at probably T9/T10 the AA should mitigate some of it.  It is back to do not travel alone, travel with Cruisers that have heavy AA and you should do fine against it. 

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Yesterday a GZ focused my lonely Yamato from the start of the match to the end. Shot down 41 planes, 30 of which were torp bombers. Took 4 or 5 torps, but even the one that missed the torp protection didn't break 10k damage. No floodings were caused, and I finished the battle alive with over 200k damage dealt.

 

That was a good battle.:cap_rambo:

 

--IronDuke

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So...what I'm understanding (and please correct me if I'm wrong) is that currently, GZ is underpowered and basically bad all around with an average player at the helm...but has the potential to wreck face if the CV captain knows what they're doing?

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That drop pattern if used right even with auto drop should do a lot of damage if you setup a cross drop moving the arrows around to line it up.  And be tough on a DD to out maneuver.

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5 minutes ago, Kitsunelegend said:

So...what I'm understanding (and please correct me if I'm wrong) is that currently, GZ is underpowered and basically bad all around with an average player at the helm...but has the potential to wreck face if the CV captain knows what they're doing?

Kit, you pretty much described *all* CVs...

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5 minutes ago, Kitsunelegend said:

So...what I'm understanding (and please correct me if I'm wrong) is that currently, GZ is underpowered and basically bad all around with an average player at the helm...but has the potential to wreck face if the CV captain knows what they're doing?

Or if the player has AP Bombs and uses then vs BBs, but then you are more useless against other types of ships if you use the AP bombs since they are only massively OP against the BBs.

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1 minute ago, gcangel82 said:

That drop pattern if used right even with auto drop should do a lot of damage if you setup a cross drop moving the arrows around to line it up.  And be tough on a DD to out maneuver.

Lol DDs and at least some CAs do not have to outmaneuver the GZ Torp Bombers thanks to the fact GZ has those Deep Water Torps correct?

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Just now, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Lol DDs and at least some CAs do not have to outmaneuver the GZ Torp Bombers thanks to the fact GZ has those Deep Water Torps correct?

Excellent point!  LOL I totally forgot about the fact those are Deep Water Torpedoes.   Thank you for correcting me.  Still a pain for a drop pattern.  I would not get the GZ if that is what I got for torpedos.  I want to be able to damage everything.  Torps into smoke is a beautiful thing.

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Just now, gcangel82 said:

Excellent point!  LOL I totally forgot about the fact those are Deep Water Torpedoes.   Thank you for correcting me.  Still a pain for a drop pattern.  I would not get the GZ if that is what I got for torpedos.  I want to be able to damage everything.  Torps into smoke is a beautiful thing.

Except with the smoke changes less ships will sit in smoke so those of us that love dropping Torps into smoke will lose a very nice way to attack the enemy lol.

Wargaming should have done more educating of players and be less quick to make such game mechanic changes I think.

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Just now, gcangel82 said:

Excellent point!  LOL I totally forgot about the fact those are Deep Water Torpedoes. 

I believe the latest test has Deep Water Torps hitting everything but destroyers, irrespective of draught. 

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Agreed.  But I can still use my Torpedoes on other CVs to chase DDs from them if they are in there, if I get the kill still will take it.

Edited by gcangel82

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3 minutes ago, mofton said:

I believe the latest test has Deep Water Torps hitting everything but destroyers, irrespective of draught. 

According to what Mouse has said, most cruisers are immune, excluding Moskva and, oddly-enough, Mogami if you hit her in the right spot.

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13 minutes ago, kerensky914 said:

Kit, you pretty much described *all* CVs...

Well, I meant more so than normal CVs lol

 

 

I think I need more coffee.

H60CfP5.png

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16 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Lol DDs and at least some CAs do not have to outmaneuver the GZ Torp Bombers thanks to the fact GZ has those Deep Water Torps correct?

Outside of DDs, only 2 cruisers and Ryujo are immune to GZ’s torps.

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Just watched a vid on the 2nd revision.

 

That thing was wrecking BBs, but I assume it's not this version.

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3 minutes ago, renegadestatuz said:

Outside of DDs, only 2 cruisers and Ryujo are immune to GZ’s torps.

Have they been changing the depth of the torps because last I heard they ran deep enough to allow more Cruisers the ability to be immune based on draft vs Deep Water Torps running depth, but that info was weeks ago though sonI Definately could be out of date with changes.

Edited by Admiral_Thrawn_1

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1 minute ago, Carrier_Lexington said:

According to what Mouse has said, most cruisers are immune, excluding Moskva and, oddly-enough, Mogami if you hit her in the right spot.

Are we talking deep water torpedoes, or AP bombs?

Because I was talking about deep water torpedoes, and see above circa. 26 Sept. If there's something more recent I'd be interested to see it.

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Just now, mofton said:
Are we talking deep water torpedoes, or AP bombs?

Because I was talking about deep water torpedoes, and see above circa. 26 Sept. If there's something more recent I'd be interested to see it.

No, sorry, I misread what Mouse had said. Entirely my fault.

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I do not own GZ but I've been seeing a lot of them in the Tier VII-X range.  My TLDR takes as a surface combatant primarily playing Cruisers and Battleships as my second most played ships encountering these things.

 

The DB version?  I never worried about them.  Sure, they hit me sometimes but it's not much.  They never came for me as a Cruiser.  However, as a BB, I play lots of USN BBs which they tend not to go for.  Alabama, Missouri, Montana.  Yeah, go ahead buddy and come at me!  I also roll an AA Gneisenau (96 AA rating at Tier VII  with signal flag, 93 rating without it, 7.5km AA) and I make any planes my way regret life.  However, I do know my Bismarck, Tirpitz, GK are far more vulnerable and play accordingly to protect my ship.  If DB-GZ gets in clean, you're not going to like it, but again, smart play will prevent the worst.

 

The TB version?  Haven't had a TB-GZ come after my Cruisers, I've heard lots of conflicting information ingame as to what kind of ships they hit, which sounds nothing at all like the simple, class-based Deep Water Torp Hit List for Pan-Asian DDs.  However, I have had to deal with TB-GZ using a few of my BBs.  Sailing smart with friends prevents the worst.  I did have one hit me up real good against my AA Spec Kii, but I was already under great duress from gunfire in multiple directions, including a BB within 12km of me, and a collapsing flank.  TB-GZ nailed me good but if I had better circumstances, the AA would work it down.  Maneuver, turn, focus the TB units one at a time, and draw out the time needed for the CV to get a good drop, thereby shooting down more planes.  This works all the time, but if you're under focus fire, it gets difficult and you also open yourself to broadside hits from surface ships.

 

The thing with the TBs is they die fast, but like Kaga, TB-GZ sends lots of planes so you need really good AA to make a huge dent in the total number of torpedoes that are actually dropped.  Either that, or have something like Atlanta nearby.

 

IMO, the TB version is far more dangerous than the DB version against BBs.  There are no Dice Rolls, no RNG with Torpedo Bombers, unlike Dive Bombers that can miss even with precise drops.  The CV player makes a good drop with enough surviving planes or doesn't.  Simple as that.  You better have good AA if you want better peace of mind, or be very mindful of proximity to friendly ships for mutual AA.  Do not sail alone.  Then again, these are old tricks to get by against any CV.  Take heed of it or get rekt, plain and simple.

 

Another observation as a regular surface ship player and taking my Lexington against Graf Zeppelin.  They're easy to wipe out from the skies.  This is like Kaga, who has very weak fighters.  GZ is the same way.  Like Kaga, the GZ player needs to really play smart to get their damage in.  GZ and Kaga can lay down good damage, but smart play is demanded if the CV opponent is competent, or they lose their planes very quickly.  Lexington's powerful fighters easily wipe out GZ.  Enterprise doesn't have as good fighters but she has MANY of them.  Haven't seen Shokaku fight GZs much, so I cannot give an observer's view on that fight, but I think Shokaku would edge out in the air war, probably the closest margin.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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4 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

I do not own GZ but I've been seeing a lot of them in the Tier VII-X range.  My TLDR takes as a surface combatant primarily playing Cruisers and Battleships as my second most played ships encountering these things.

 

The DB version?  I never worried about them.  Sure, they hit me sometimes but it's not much.  They never came for me as a Cruiser.  However, as a BB, I play lots of USN BBs which they tend not to go for.  Alabama, Missouri, Montana.  Yeah, go ahead buddy and come at me!  I also roll an AA Gneisenau (96 AA rating at Tier VII  with signal flag, 93 rating without it, 7.5km AA) and I make any planes my way regret life.  However, I do know my Bismarck, Tirpitz, GK are far more vulnerable and play accordingly to protect my ship.  If DB-GZ gets in clean, you're not going to like it, but again, smart play will prevent the worst.

 

The TB version?  Haven't had a TB-GZ come after my Cruisers, I've heard lots of conflicting information ingame as to what kind of ships they hit, which sounds nothing at all like the simple, class-based Deep Water Torp Hit List for Pan-Asian DDs.  However, I have had to deal with TB-GZ using a few of my BBs.  Sailing smart with friends prevents the worst.  I did have one hit me up real good against my AA Spec Kii, but I was already under great duress from gunfire in multiple directions, including a BB within 12km of me, and a collapsing flank.  TB-GZ nailed me good but if I had better circumstances, the AA would work it down.  Maneuver, turn, focus the TB units one at a time, and draw out the time needed for the CV to get a good drop, thereby shooting down more planes.  This works all the time, but if you're under focus fire, it gets difficult and you also open yourself to broadside hits from surface ships.

 

The thing with the TBs is they die fast, but like Kaga, TB-GZ sends lots of planes so you need really good AA to make a huge dent in the total number of torpedoes that are actually dropped.  Either that, or have something like Atlanta nearby.

 

IMO, the TB version is far more dangerous than the DB version against BBs.  There are no Dice Rolls, no RNG with Torpedo Bombers, unlike Dive Bombers that can miss even with precise drops.  The CV player makes a good drop with enough surviving planes or doesn't.  Simple as that.  You better have good AA if you want better peace of mind, or be very mindful of proximity to friendly ships for mutual AA.  Do not sail alone.  Then again, these are old tricks to get by against any CV.  Take heed of it or get rekt, plain and simple.

Are you using AA equipment upgrades and manual AA?

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30 minutes ago, gcangel82 said:

Torps into smoke is a beautiful thing.

No, it is a glorious explosion of epic salt.

 

Yeah, you're right, it's beautiful.

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3 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Are you using AA equipment upgrades and manual AA?

 

My Kii, Alabama, Missouri, Montana:

BFT & AFT, no Manual AA.

AAM1, AAGM2

 

That's it.  This tends to do very well against any but Tier IX-X CVs.  Tier IX-X CVs not only have tougher planes, but they're FASTER.  To deal with IX-X with better peace of mind, then you could go Balls to the Wall AA with Manual AA trait, maybe even AAGM3 if you're nuts, but I don't do that as it's too ultra-specialized.

 

Since I know most don't want Ultra-AA Specialization, then you need to sail with friends nearby.  That's achievable without sacrificing build space :Smile_Default: 

 

Also keep in mind, some BBs lean more easily to good AA than others.  USN BBs easily attain great AA because the APRM2 dispersion upgrade they want is in Slot 3, so Slot 2 is almost always AAGM2.  If you were a Non-USN BB, Slot 2 has a lot of hard choices:  SBM2, ASM1, AAGM2.  Serious concessions have to be made.  The German BB player?  Not take SBM2?  "Are you nuts?" LOL!  And that is the build conundrum. 

 

Even Kii makes significant build concessions for great AA.  If her AA is to be really good and have the range it needs, she needs AFT & AAGM2.  With AFT alone it reaches out to 6km, which is IMO, not great AA range.  So to go out to 7.2km or so, she needs AFT & AAGM2.  But doing that route means no ASM1, and her gunnery without ASM1 is really, really off at the worst of times.  Sometimes it's there, sometimes it's just terrible, which is a very unusual feeling for the typically precise IJN BB gunnery.  Slap ASM1 on Kii and she shoots just like Amagi... Beautifully!  But then your AA only goes out to 6km with AFT only, that does no good against equal tier or higher CV aircraft.  It'll swat Tier VI, but Tier VII may get in.  Tier VIII-X, hell no, that AA is no good with the range.

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