Jump to content
You need to play a total of 5 battles to post in this section.
dseehafer

What if Turkey sold Yavuz/Goeben back to Germany after WWI? (Version B added)

33 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

4,717
[HINON]
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
8,856 posts
3,680 battles

Greetings all,

 

   The other day I got to thinking... after WWI Yavuz was in pretty rough shape. Heck, she was barely sea-worthy due to mine damage incurred during the war. Turkey decided to fix her up and had to order a very large and very expensive drydock to be built in Germany because Turkey did not have a dry-dock big enough for Yavuz. Well, what if Turkey decided to make some money instead of spend it? What if instead of paying Germany to build them a dry-dock, they offered to sell Yavuz back to Germany in the 20s? What if the Germans jumped at that offer? Surely they would go beyond repairing her, they'd probably modernize her too....

 

What would such a modernization look like? I think I have an idea!

 

Now, there are many "what if Scapa flow never happened" drawing and schematics out there of WWI German battleships modernized post-war. The problem is, most of these don't follow German naval practice during the late 20s - early 30s. For this exercise, I will attempt to build a modernized Goeben while staying as true to German practice at that time as possible.

 

First, the superstructure. Many "what if" modernizations show German ships with the superstructure that Bismarck and Scharnhorst had. Or even Graf Spee's superstructure!

 

Examples...

 

Bayern

Image result for modernized bayern

 

 

Mackensen

Image result for modernized bayern

 

 

However, this is unrealistic as the Germans did not switch to this superstructure design until the mid-1930s. Any modernized German capital ships would probably have had their superstructure's rebuilt with tube-masts and bridges like those on Emden, K-class, Leipzig, and Deutschland.

 

Image result for konigsberg cruiser

 

Image result for deutschland cruiser

 

 

The ship would probably be repowered (possibly diesel??) and her forward funnel may have been torn down as a result.

 

 

Her 88mm gun-casemates in the bow would have been removed and plated over, just like Schleswig-Holstein and Schlesien.

 

Image result for schlesien battleship

 

 

However, she would have likely kept her 149mm casemates, at least initially. Just like Schleswig Holstein and Schlesien. Note that two of her 149mm guns were removed by the Turks in 1916, it is unlikely the Germans would have re-added the guns here. Instead, they would have likely plated them over.

 

 

Certainly, her bow would have been built up to modern standards. If she received an Atlantic bow it would not have been a highly-curved one like you see on ships like Bismarck, Scharnhorst, and Prinz Eugen. Instead, it would have been a very slightly curved bow like the one that Hipper, Lutzow, and Scheer later received.

 

Image result for admiral hipper bow

 

Her remaining funnel would likely receive a short triangular or square funnel cap. The large triangular funnel caps like those that Lutzow and Scheer would receive (and WG's Kaiser and Konig models have in-game) did not appear until the mid-1940s. Additionally, a platform would have been built around the funnel near its top as was standard practice at the time. This platform would be occupied by searchlights and light AA-guns.

 

Image result for deutschland cruiser

 

 

Her rear superstructure would likely also have been rebuilt to modern standards. This same general design was used on German ships even into the 1940s

 

Image result for konigsberg cruiser 1940

 

 

For long range-AA guns she likely would have received dual 88mm or dual 105mm turrets. Likely one on either side of both the forward and rear superstructures and one on platforms on either side of the funnel as well.

 

unknown.png

 

 

Before WWII Germany had been experimenting with turret catapults before releasing that they did more harm than good. It is likely that Goeben would have had a catapult on her superfiring turret at some point before the war.

 

Image result for gneisenau turret catapult

 

 

Goeben's wing turrets would make any meaningful upgrades to her internal torpedo protection impossible. To add a degree of torpedo protection (and also extra stability) torpedo bulges would have likely been added. As to what they would have looked like... the only German example of post-construction torpedo bulges that we have are Graf Zeppelin's...

 

Image result for graf zeppelin torpedo bulges

 

 

Her main battery would have likely stayed the same. While replacing her old guns with, say, Deutschland's guns would have certainly been superior, who knows what kind of work would need to be done to her internal systems to accommodate those guns. Further, they are an extra 2' longer than the old guns, would the wing turrets still be able to clear the superstructures? There's just too many what-ifs to say a definite "yes". Wargaming added range-finder ears to some of the turrets on Kaiser and Konig. While not unrealistic it has no historical basis. Neither Schlesien nor Holstein received range-finder ears.

 

 

After all is said and done, a 1939 modernized Goeben would have probably looked something like this...

 

F8aEAbO.png

 

 

waterline version

ZbZ6JAf.png

 

original

Curl10g.png

 

 

 

Version B

 

unknown.png

 

unknown.png

 

You like my mad photoshop skillz? :Smile-_tongue:

 

 

 

Anyways, what do you think? Hope you enjoyed!

  • Cool 20

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,847
Supertester, Members, Alpha Tester, In AlfaTesters, Beta Testers
11,236 posts
1,928 battles

I'm rather dubious on the premise, given the very clear need for the Turks to counter the naval power of Greece. 

That said, this is a wonderful post, and I hope for more in the future, if that's feasible. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,105
[SPTR]
Members
3,472 posts
5,731 battles

Mad skillz dseehafer! Quality content as usual...

Although I doubt the british and the frenchies would've allowed the Germans to own a relatively advanced battlecruiser in the inter-war period...as a battlecruiser she would've been scrapped like other ships of the same order...

Wait...

Would you think it to be possible for the Germans to rebuild her as an Aircraft carrier, in line with Lexington and Akagi?

Her size would make her very comparable to Hiryu-class and the USS Ranger should such happens, and since in the early interwar period CVs' power arent' recognized, that would be more probable given the historical background...

Edited by The_first_harbinger
  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,710
[HINON]
Modder, In AlfaTesters, Beta Testers
6,498 posts
3,751 battles

Nice photoshopping. All the what if's of ship building and designs are truly fascinating.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
289
[JFSOC]
Members
932 posts
2,811 battles

Well, the big stumbling point here is the Treaty of Versailles.  It prohibited Germany from possessing battleships.  So, before Hitler took power, the sale would have been illegal under the treaty, and afterwards a sale makes little sense as the Yavuz is now roughly 25 years old and pretty marginal as a capital ship.  Building new would have been a better option.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,187
[SYN]
[SYN]
Members
6,799 posts
10,299 battles

Dseehafer threads - 5% of the threads I visit, 50% of my daily upvotes.

 

I do agree it's unlikely to have happened, but the research and photoshop look are great.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
3,562 posts
6,867 battles

Interesting post and some nice work +1.

However,

Quote

 

The Yavuz saw numerous actions in the Black Sea against the Russians during the war. After the defeat of the Central Powers, due to the Treaty of Sevres between the Ottoman Empire and the Allies, Yavuz was to be handed over to the Royal Navy as a war prize. Due to her not being seaworthy, the Royal Navy left her in Sevastopol. In 1923, after the Turkish War of Independence, the Treaty of Sevres was replaced by the Treaty of Lausanne which required Turkish warships, including Yavuz, to be repatriated back to the Turkish Navy. After the war, Yavuz was the only German-built battlecruiser still in service. From 1918 until 1926, she remained in the port city of Izmit, rusting at dockside.

Stationed in the Gulf of Izmit since1948, Yavuz was finally decommissioned and placed in reserve on December 20th, 1950. She remained inactive at anchor for four years and stricken from the Turkish Naval register on November 14th, 1954. Her name was painted over and she was assigned the hull number "B70". Seventeen years passed until B70 was sold for scrap to the M.K.E. Seyman company in 1971. Her last voyage was being towed by tugs to the scrapyard on June 7th, 1973 and, by February 1976, her hull had been loaded onto barges heading for steel mills to be melted down. The end of an honorable career lasting some sixty-four years, the vessel was the last of the European dreadnoughts in existence."

from: http://www.militaryfactory.com/ships/detail.asp?ship_id=SMS-Goeben

 

I think if the Royal Navy passed on having her she must have been in dreadful shape, otherwise she would have been a fine addition, refitted, as a battlecruiser. But then so would the beautiful von der Tann, but she was scuttled at Scapa Flow in 1919. The RN had their reasons.

I've listed out a number of pre-dreadnoughts, dreadnoughts and battlecruisers from that era that one hopes will make it into the game at some point:

 

Edited by Stauffenberg44

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,717
[HINON]
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
8,856 posts
3,680 battles

How dare you people bring logic and reason into a "what if" discussion! :Smile_smile:

 

Very fine points all around, though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
69
[LTNY]
Members
335 posts
4,079 battles

Awesome post!

And those are mad skills indeed, it looks awesome.

Goeben was capable of doing 25/28 knots after leaving the shipyard, how much speed you calculate she would make after the refit?

 

Just now, Murotsu said:

Well, the big stumbling point here is the Treaty of Versailles.  It prohibited Germany from possessing battleships.  So, before Hitler took power, the sale would have been illegal under the treaty, and afterwards a sale makes little sense as the Yavuz is now roughly 25 years old and pretty marginal as a capital ship.  Building new would have been a better option.

After rejecting Versailles, they could have done it just to spite the British.
Building a ship from keel up is a little more expensive than buying and refurbishing a used one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
289
[JFSOC]
Members
932 posts
2,811 battles
18 minutes ago, Jumarka said:

After rejecting Versailles, they could have done it just to spite the British.

Building a ship from keel up is a little more expensive than buying and refurbishing a used one.

Rejecting Versailles would likely have resulted in the occupation of Germany by France and Britain in the 20's.  Failure of Germany to repay the reparations under the treaty in 1923 resulted in a French occupation of the Ruhr for over two years.  Signs that Germany wanted to rearm at that time, however limited that might have been, would have resulted in some reaction by France, and more likely Britain, in this case as the British didn't want Germany to have a fleet they would have to counter.

 

As for refurbishing, Australia decided against keeping the HMAS Australia, an Indefatigable class battlecruiser because it was a better, and cheaper, deal all around to have a new 8" heavy cruiser built that could outperform the old battlecruiser.  You have the same thing here.  25 years of the Göben just being in the water, years of neglect, and damage, would all weaken the hull and other structures by rust and fatigue.

For all intents, the proposed rebuild is virtually everything new in an old hull.  By WW 2 the ship would be 35 + years old.  It would be worn out for the most part and not really suited to first-line duty any more than the oldest US or British battleships were.

 

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
69
[LTNY]
Members
335 posts
4,079 battles
Just now, Murotsu said:

Rejecting Versailles would likely have resulted in the occupation of Germany by France and Britain in the 20's.  Failure of Germany to repay the reparations under the treaty in 1923 resulted in a French occupation of the Ruhr for over two years.  Signs that Germany wanted to rearm at that time, however limited that might have been, would have resulted in some reaction by France, and more likely Britain, in this case as the British didn't want Germany to have a fleet they would have to counter.

As for refurbishing, Australia decided against keeping the HMAS Australia, an Indefatigable class battlecruiser because it was a better, and cheaper, deal all around to have a new 8" heavy cruiser built that could outperform the old battlecruiser.  You have the same thing here.  25 years of the Göben just being in the water, years of neglect, and damage, would all weaken the hull and other structures by rust and fatigue.

For all intents, the proposed rebuild is virtually everything new in an old hull.  By WW 2 the ship would be 35 + years old.  It would be worn out for the most part and not really suited to first-line duty any more than the oldest US or British battleships were.

 

I agree with you.

But I feel comparing Australia with Germany is wrong, for Australia It would have been cheaper to buy a brand new ship from the UK.

As for being an old ship by WW2, Germany still had Schleswig Holstein kicking around (and shelling polish positions).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
289
[JFSOC]
Members
932 posts
2,811 battles
14 minutes ago, Jumarka said:

 

I agree with you.

But I feel comparing Australia with Germany is wrong, for Australia It would have been cheaper to buy a brand new ship from the UK.

As for being an old ship by WW2, Germany still had Schleswig Holstein kicking around (and shelling polish positions).

Germany had those old battleships in service as they were left in service under the Versailles Treaty to give Germany a rump navy that was a coast defense force at best.  For Germany, they were all they had until Hitler started rebuilding their armed forces in the mid-30's.  Given free reign, I doubt very much Germany would have kept them in service otherwise.

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,717
[HINON]
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
8,856 posts
3,680 battles
2 hours ago, Murotsu said:

Germany had those old battleships in service as they were left in service under the Versailles Treaty to give Germany a rump navy that was a coast defense force at best.  For Germany, they were all they had until Hitler started rebuilding their armed forces in the mid-30's.  Given free reign, I doubt very much Germany would have kept them in service otherwise.

 

Deutschland and Emden were built under Hindenburg, not Hitler. But otherwise, yes, what he said. ^

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,717
[HINON]
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
8,856 posts
3,680 battles
3 hours ago, Jumarka said:

Awesome post!

And those are mad skills indeed, it looks awesome.

Goeben was capable of doing 25/28 knots after leaving the shipyard, how much speed you calculate she would make after the refit?

 

 

 

Who knows. Depends on what they do to modernize her propulsion. it could be something as simple as a reboilering, or something as extravagant as a complete gut and overhaul with brand new engines. In either event, the extra tonnage added and torpedo bulges would mean that she would need a heck of a lot of extra power if she was ever going to see 28kn or greater. I'd say 26kn is a safe bet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
69
[LTNY]
Members
335 posts
4,079 battles
Just now, dseehafer said:

Who knows. Depends on what they do to modernize her propulsion. it could be something as simple as a reboilering, or something as extravagant as a complete gut and overhaul with brand new engines. In either event, the extra tonnage added and torpedo bulges would mean that she would need a heck of a lot of extra power if she was ever going to see 28kn or greater. I'd say 26kn is a safe bet.

 

We could go with a reconstruction along the lines of the Italian Giulio Cesare, that went from having 31,000 shp (23,000 kW) to 75,000 shp (56,000 kW).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,717
[HINON]
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
8,856 posts
3,680 battles
35 minutes ago, Jumarka said:

 

We could go with a reconstruction along the lines of the Italian Giulio Cesare, that went from having 31,000 shp (23,000 kW) to 75,000 shp (56,000 kW).

 

Well, that was a complete and utter rebuild, practically a brand new ship. Goeben would have probably just been modernized. At least, that was the concept I ran with. I'm not saying that doubling Goeben's horsepower is unrealistic, just that using Cesare's rebuild to justify it isn't exactly a sound argument.

 

I mean... the Italian dreadnoughts were literally stripped to their keels during their rebuilds...

 

Here is Duilio undergoing her rebuild.

22090061_10207715179916016_7295017558845490014_n.png

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
69
[LTNY]
Members
335 posts
4,079 battles
Just now, dseehafer said:

22090061_10207715179916016_7295017558845490014_n.png

 

No words, just: :cap_fainting:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,717
[HINON]
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
8,856 posts
3,680 battles
20 hours ago, mr3awsome said:

I'm rather dubious on the premise, given the very clear need for the Turks to counter the naval power of Greece. 

That said, this is a wonderful post, and I hope for more in the future, if that's feasible. 

 

Well, that depends. I could do more ships, but it wouldn't be as exciting. Like I said, these features are pretty much universal for German shipbuilding during the mid-20s - early 30s. So the process and features would be the same, just on a different template. If I did more I wouldn't explain my process like I did for Goeben, I'd just post the pics.

 

That's a jumble of words, I hope that makes sense.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,717
[HINON]
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
8,856 posts
3,680 battles

Alright, I have decided to release a second version. Her forward superstructure has not been torn down and replaced as in the first version I released. Instead, the original superstructure has been modernized with a tube mast and an enclosed navigation bridge. Further, the casemate in the superstructure has been plated over and replaced by a pair of windows. This version is inspired by the inter-war modernizations done to the superstructures of Schlesien and Schleswig-Holstein.

 

unknown.png

 

 

unknown.png

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,717
[HINON]
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
8,856 posts
3,680 battles

Which WWI German capital ship would you like to see me modernize next?

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
69
[LTNY]
Members
335 posts
4,079 battles
Just now, dseehafer said:

Which WWI German capital ship would you like to see me modernize next?

 

After searching for some candidates:

How about "Württemberg" or "Prinz Eitel Friedrich", according to wikipedia this photo is from about 1920.
Hamburg_port_NARA-68155073_(cropped).jpg

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,717
[HINON]
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
8,856 posts
3,680 battles
2 minutes ago, Jumarka said:

 

After searching for some candidates:

How about "Württemberg" or "Prinz Eitel Friedrich", according to wikipedia this photo is from about 1920.
Hamburg_port_NARA-68155073_(cropped).jpg

 

WG's rebuild of Bayern, ugly as it may be, is actually pretty dead on as to how a modernized Bayern class probably would have looked. Then again, the Bayern's were never very good looking to begin with.

 

I'd like to do a different ship if you don't mind.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
69
[LTNY]
Members
335 posts
4,079 battles
Just now, dseehafer said:

WG's rebuild of Bayern, ugly as it may be, is actually pretty dead on as to how a modernized Bayern class probably would have looked. Then again, the Bayern's were never very good looking to begin with.

I'd like to do a different ship if you don't mind.

 

I dont mind at all :Smile_smile:  

:Smile-angry: Take those words back! she is gorgeous!

Looking at "Prinz Eitel Friedrich" how hard would have been to convert that hull into a carrier, similar to what Japan did with the Kaga.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×