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HorrorRoach

Excessive British HE spam solution?

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9 minutes ago, b101uk said:

outside of kinetic penetrators of all flavours, there is still one shell concept developed in the UK during WW2 that is still valid vs the latest types of heavy armour composites, and is also very good vs. concrete and normal plate armour, which is the squash-head type HE round, commonly known as HESH, which blows large chunks of white-hot spall off the inside of thick armour plate etc and will create holes in thinner plates.

 

not all "HE" shells are created equal.

 

Although HESH, like HEAT, can be sensitive to angle.

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1 hour ago, Bril01 said:

 

So in other words just convert them into every other BB who use nothing but AP?  Yeah, that will make them interesting...

They still have the .015s AP fuse arm time compared to the standard .033s, not to mention the submerged citadel and superheals. And would you rather have that or BBs that can cit things with HE

Edited by FireAndHEspam

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7 minutes ago, Skpstr said:

 

Although HESH, like HEAT, can be sensitive to angle.

 

true, but most things are susceptible to angle, even long-rod penetrators, but when a HESH round is striking at an angle it still tends to perform like a simple HE shell then.

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3 hours ago, HorrorRoach said:

I just thought of a potential solution for the British BB HE spamming... Fire quenching. Anyone with a charcoal grill can see what happens if you briefly limit the oxygen to the fire with the lid. A roaring fire turns into a smolder.

 

When a British BB (or any ship with large cal, high fire chance shells) hits a target with a bunch of HE shells, the shells make large explosions in a giant cloud on the ship. It's logical that it would start the ship on fire. But, if that BB shoots another volley and a similar amount of shells hit the burning ship. That giant cloud is going to suck all the oxygen out of the air briefly and temporarily quench the fire/s... Each of the 4 of the fire zones could have a fire quenching chance due to the intense/brief oxygen deprivation, depending on where the explosions are localized. It wouldn't put out the fires completely, but it could lower them to a "smoldering" level where the hit point loss per sec is lowered by 50% or something. The smoldering state could last maybe 15-20 seconds, then the fire will return to normal intensity, or go out.. . You can have the fire quench chance based on the speed of the target as well. If the target ship isn't moving, the fire quench chance will be higher. If the target ship is moving fast, the quench chance will be lower because it's moving into fresh air. 

 

What would happen if more British HE shells hit the smoldering fires? Well,  they could reignite the fire to normal intensity if the ship is moving since there's more oxygen, or they'll quench it completely if ship is moving slowly. 

 

This would allow BB's to counter the British HE by slowing down and tanking at 1/2 throttle...  The British BB captain can switch to AP and let the fires burn... Or just keep shooting HE, risk putting the fires out, and still reap the high HE damage Alpha, but at least it'll limit the fire damage somewhat.

 

I know this isn't going to happen, but i thought i'd write it to maybe inspire thoughts/solutions. There's all kinds of ways to balance the game without ruining it, you just have to start envisioning things.

 

EJ

No.

We don't need one gimmick to fix the problems of another gimmick.

Also, the title of this thread is flawed, sorta.  You say "excessive British HE spamming", but that's EXACTLY what RN BB's were designed to do ... spam HE!  The problem isn't that it's excessive.  The problem is that you have BBs using HE as their default ammo of choice!

What really needs to happen is for the devs to take the RN BB line back to the ship, as it were, and dump this entire concept that the national flavor of RN BB's is HE as the default ammo.

This is what I'd suggest.

1. Drop the fire chance on British BBs' HE shells to levels similar to all other nations' BB HE shells.

2. Return the 1/4 thing on RN BB HE back to 1/6.

3. Make RN BB AP similar to all other nations' AP shells.

4. Dump the Superheal on higher tier RN BBs and replace it with normal heals.

5. Increase the HP totals in those same higher tier RN BBs up to levels similar to other higher tier BBs of other nations.

Beyond this are questions about the exceptional concealment and low citadels of some (all?) RN BBs.  Personally, I have no problem with most true BBs (not counting battlecruisers here) being tough as nails. 

OTOH, it kind of annoys me to see massive battleships having the same concealment as cruisers.  But worse, concealment actually works better on battleships than it does on cruisers.  Why's that?  Because cruisers have reload times that are shorter than the bloom time, meaning that if they keep up a constant rate of fire, they'll never get re-concealed because the gun bloom penalty will always be in effect.  OTOH, battleships with reloads greater than their gun bloom penalty time always get reconcealed between shots, with the possible exception of some BB's with lower reloads combined with faster reloads due to the Adrenaline Rush skill.  In short, concealment synergizes well with battleships' long reloads.

If I had my druthers, I'd like to see BB concealments never get below, maybe 15-ish kilometers, including all the modifiers from camo paint, CE skill, and the upgrade module.  BTW, note that I'm talking about higher tier BBs here.

 

Anyways, that's how I see things.

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1 hour ago, Bril01 said:

 

So in other words just convert them into every other BB who use nothing but AP?  Yeah, that will make them interesting...

They're interesting because they're British BB's.  No ship should require stupid gimmicks to make them interesting. 

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I suggested a while ago to not let fires do damage to ships once their HP is reduced to ~30%.

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The problem with RN BBs firing HE is that (with BB dispersion) they usually set more than one fire in a single volley. With other ships you need to work a bit to get two fires going, and 3 is very difficult, but since BB dispersion is scattering those shells over a whole ship anyway, two or theee fires is not unusual. 

 

The easy and fair solution would be to just put a short cool down on fires, so that once one lights, you can’t get another for 5 seconds or so. This would be fair for a number of reasons:

  1. It would let RN BBs keep their perk.  Their HE would still be the best and would still be quite effective most of the time. 
  2. It would mitigate “one shot” kills. The worst part about RN HE is that if your repair is on cool down for any reason, it might start enough fires in one hit to kill you. 
  3. The way that other fire-spammers play would be mostly unchanged. Since cruisers and DDs tend to land all their hits in one section at a time, they usually don’t start 2 fires at once, and virtually never get 3.
  4. If an RN BB really wants to maximize fire, they could still fire one turret at a time, but this would force a play choice between alpha damage and DOT damage. 

Personally, I know how to deal with their armor, but when you get multiple fires from 2 volleys in a row, you’re done. Even with a full anti-fire spec, 2 fire per volley is pretty normal, and those guns fire faster than the cool down on damage control.

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16 minutes ago, inktomi19d said:

The problem with RN BBs firing HE is that (with BB dispersion) they usually set more than one fire in a single volley. With other ships you need to work a bit to get two fires going, and 3 is very difficult, but since BB dispersion is scattering those shells over a whole ship anyway, two or theee fires is not unusual. 

 

The easy and fair solution would be to just put a short cool down on fires, so that once one lights, you can’t get another for 5 seconds or so. This would be fair for a number of reasons:

  1. It would let RN BBs keep their perk.  Their HE would still be the best and would still be quite effective most of the time. 
  2. It would mitigate “one shot” kills. The worst part about RN HE is that if your repair is on cool down for any reason, it might start enough fires in one hit to kill you. 
  3. The way that other fire-spammers play would be mostly unchanged. Since cruisers and DDs tend to land all their hits in one section at a time, they usually don’t start 2 fires at once, and virtually never get 3.
  4. If an RN BB really wants to maximize fire, they could still fire one turret at a time, but this would force a play choice between alpha damage and DOT damage. 

Personally, I know how to deal with their armor, but when you get multiple fires from 2 volleys in a row, you’re done. Even with a full anti-fire spec, 2 fire per volley is pretty normal, and those guns fire faster than the cool down on damage control.

 

apart from the fact ships like the Cleveland or Atlanta have a much nicer grouping and a high RPM so you can set fire to a ship along its whole length MUCH faster than you can most of the time with a RN BB, and you can keep it burning just by moving your aim either side of centre while keeping your LMB pressed :cap_rambo:, in the time it takes a mid tier RN BB to fire two salvoes of 8 shells each (60sec), the Cleveland has fired at lest 7 salvoes of 12 shells and most of them will hit even if your at the maximums of range, whereas with the mid tier RN BB at comparative ranges most of them will miss and you will get between 0 and 4 hits.

 

at best 16 x 35% = <560% or 16 x 40% = <640% is far lower cumulative chance than 84 x 12% = <1008% over the same given time if you don't count misses.

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4 hours ago, Sweetsie said:

There is more to it than just another ship shooting HE. Your HE shells hit harder than AP shells( unless a citadel) How any time have you fired a magnificent shot to be rewarded with bounces and 1180 total damage for your 30 second wait per AP salvo? But now the game has morphed into how best to manage your damage control module, If its never available due to always being on fire.....more floods will stick, your spotted more often and at greater distances.....with RNBB's there are easily 10-15 more fires per game, but not fires from a dd or cruiser where you get 900 damage and a fire...but 6-12k a pop plus two fires.... that's insane. 

It would be interesting to see of other ships that rely on fire damage to see of their numbers are down with RNBB's in the game...or up due to the huge health pools they bring.

I was in a game in my Tirpitz and had tier 6QE shooting a me at 14k, normally I would just steam at it, secondarys firing away and go sink it, but it nailed me for 2 fires......right out of the gate...I can't fight that, couple more hits and fires and I'm done. A tech tree tier 6....

 

It doesn't matter.

 

Because no matter what, in my Cruisers, it is exquisitely rare to citadel a CA with HE gunfire, even RN BBs!  The only ones that are getting frequently HE-LOLPENCIT'ed are the trash low tier CLs with armor so thin that cardboard would be more suitable to protect them.

 

AP?  AP has that chance to tell the Cruiser or even BB, "Nice of you to hit BATTLE but it's time to send your a$$ to port.  Sorry, bruh" in one salvo.  Do you get overpens?  Yes.  Do you get nonpens?  Yes.  But let's be honest, BB players absolutely LIVE for the big, flashy penetrating, citadel-striking salvos.

 

HE does not end the fight quickly, then and there.  AP does.

 

HE and Fire damage can be mitigated.  Fires are a big part, correct?

 

Manage your angles so that you cannot get both superstructure portions and the last hull portion to get set on fire.   Show a lot of sides, like AP, you'll pay for it, as that is how you get 3-4 fires set on you.  Show a limited profile, you get, what?  2 fires set on you at best?  Not to mention there are traits, upgrades, to limit the amount of fires that can be set on you, lessen the time fires can burn on you.

 

You also can repair back a large amount of fire damage done.  AP and Citadel Strikes?  No, that's going to stick way more.

 

Manage your angles, consumables.  You can take extra build actions to lessen the dangers of fires.  Or not.  And just make threads complaining about fires.

 

Again, let's not pretend like fire starting ships never existed before.  With the likes of Belfast, Zao, Henri IV, etc, they were setting ships ablaze.  Montana has an underrated ability to put ships ablaze when needed.  Even with the Fire Starters that existed even before RN BBs arrived, you had to know what to do to mitigate the dangers of fire.

 

RN BBs bring nothing new.  Fire Starting is a long established thing in WoWS, as well as the means to deal with it.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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Its the high amount of damage from the fires that is dumber than hell. I took 75% damage from 1 hit in my iron duke, and 60% damage from 1 hit in my Iowa. It doesn't matter if you have all the skills to avoid fire damage. The answer I was given from a dev was to dodge the shells. Obviously this dev has never played a bb, because you sure as hell cant dodge like a dd can. Devs wonder why the server pop is so low all the time. 

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1 hour ago, b101uk said:

 

apart from the fact ships like the Cleveland or Atlanta have a much nicer grouping and a high RPM so you can set fire to a ship along its whole length MUCH faster than you can most of the time with a RN BB, and you can keep it burning just by moving your aim either side of centre while keeping your LMB pressed :cap_rambo:, in the time it takes a mid tier RN BB to fire two salvoes of 8 shells each (60sec), the Cleveland has fired at lest 7 salvoes of 12 shells and most of them will hit even if your at the maximums of range, whereas with the mid tier RN BB at comparative ranges most of them will miss and you will get between 0 and 4 hits.

 

at best 16 x 35% = <560% or 16 x 40% = <640% is far lower cumulative chance than 84 x 12% = <1008% over the same given time if you don't count misses.

Lots wrong in this post. 

 

  1. Random rolls dont don’t work that way, at all. They don’t accumulate, and they don’t increase arithmatically. There is no point where 8 x 5% = 40%. 
  2. The Cleveland and Atlanta require HE to deal damage against all but a very few targets. RN BBs deal good damage with AP too.
  3. The Cleveland and Atlanta (the Atlanta in particular has trouble trouble doing damage with hull hits, even with IFHE) do zero damage on a large number of hits. RN HE will deal damage on virtually every hit.
  4. BB HE does much more damage than cruiser HE, in addition to penetrating much more frequently, making the cruisers more reliant on fire damage. 
  5. The guns on both the Cleveland and the Atlanta are notoriously “floaty”. BBs are often stationary or sailing in strait lines, but they all have rudders fast enough to dodge farther than about 10km out (if they feel like not getting hit, that is).
  6. To hit at all, an Atlanta or Cleveland needs to be in range where it can easily get deleted.
  7. #5 and #6 together mean that no light cruiser is going to take the time to walk 4 fires onto a BB unless the BB is in a horrible position and elects to stay there for minutes. 
  8. There is counterplay to CLs spamming HE. You can dodge their floaty shells, or angle towards/away from them since they can generally only damage superstructures, and you deny them extra fire locations. Or you can delete them. I play BBs quite a bit, and even in my slow USN standards I can wiggle out to the 10km or so that it takes to stop an Atlanta or Cleveland from lobbing shells over a mountain at me. 
  9. There is no counterplay to a RN BB hitting you with multiple fires in consecutive volleys. I had that happen in my Arizona earlier today while I was angling and protecting myself on a push. A BB needs to be able to take hits to function, but RN HE is so effective against battleships that they really can’t do their job. I deal with cruiser HE all the time, and it lacks the initial damage, often fails to penetrate, and almost never hits me with more than 2 fires before I can break off. Even other BBs lack the effectiveness (and my NC takes a lot of BB HE on the chin). It’s a bad mechanic. 

 

The general point is that cruisers have nothing going for them except HE, where BBs also have great AP and armor, and just don’t need to rely on fire that much. 

 

 

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52 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

 

It doesn't matter.

 

Because no matter what, in my Cruisers, it is exquisitely rare to citadel a CA with HE gunfire, even RN BBs!  The only ones that are getting frequently HE-LOLPENCIT'ed are the trash low tier CLs with armor so thin that cardboard would be more suitable to protect them.

 

AP?  AP has that chance to tell the Cruiser or even BB, "Nice of you to hit BATTLE but it's time to send your a$$ to port.  Sorry, bruh" in one salvo.  Do you get overpens?  Yes.  Do you get nonpens?  Yes.  But let's be honest, BB players absolutely LIVE for the big, flashy penetrating, citadel-striking salvos.

 

HE does not end the fight quickly, then and there.  AP does.

 

HE and Fire damage can be mitigated.  Fires are a big part, correct?

 

Manage your angles so that you cannot get both superstructure portions and the last hull portion to get set on fire.   Show a lot of sides, like AP, you'll pay for it, as that is how you get 3-4 fires set on you.  Show a limited profile, you get, what?  2 fires set on you at best?  Not to mention there are traits, upgrades, to limit the amount of fires that can be set on you, lessen the time fires can burn on you.

 

You also can repair back a large amount of fire damage done.  AP and Citadel Strikes?  No, that's going to stick way more.

 

Manage your angles, consumables.  You can take extra build actions to lessen the dangers of fires.  Or not.  And just make threads complaining about fires.

 

Again, let's not pretend like fire starting ships never existed before.  With the likes of Belfast, Zao, Henri IV, etc, they were setting ships ablaze.  Montana has an underrated ability to put ships ablaze when needed.  Even with the Fire Starters that existed even before RN BBs arrived, you had to know what to do to mitigate the dangers of fire.

 

RN BBs bring nothing new.  Fire Starting is a long established thing in WoWS, as well as the means to deal with it.

What is different is that BBs put shells all over a target, and RN HE will pen most parts at any angle. In an Atlanta, you either need to hit the superstructure of a bow-on target or you get nothing but breaks, but an RN BB can scatter shells into the hull turrets, etc and still get pens.

 

Also, CLs lack both in range, and in accuracy at range. At worst you can back away from a CL and force them to either miss you, or to overextend and die, but RN  BBs can and do hit from much farther out. 

 

Its just far far harder to avoid or mitigate their fire-starting.

 

That’s why I favor putting a short cool down on fires (like 5 sec). A BB could still choose to time their shots so each one gets a chance at starting a fire, but then that would be a play choice, and it would be balanced by the lower alpha strike. Right now, the easy penetration and big damage makes spamming HE make sense even without starting fires.

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Just reduce the HE alpha to be inline with the other ships, maybe reduce splash radius, and the HE spamming + salt will reduce a lot. Fires aren't that game breaking with HE spamming cruisers around, and 1/4 pen isn't a big deal as IFHE cruisers or KM CL/A pen most stuff anyways.

 

It's mainly the HE shell damage alpha thats too high making HE the optimal choice for most of the game. Only switching to AP for perfect targets.

 

HE spamming BBs are not a new issue, anyone who has has played ranked knows that. 20km HE fusos were the most popular ranked BB last season, but wasn't considered super broken because the Alpha wasn't as high as these new RN BB HE shells.

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40 minutes ago, inktomi19d said:

Lots wrong in this post. 

 

  1. Random rolls dont don’t work that way, at all. They don’t accumulate, and they don’t increase arithmatically. There is no point where 8 x 5% = 40%. 
  2. The Cleveland and Atlanta require HE to deal damage against all but a very few targets. RN BBs deal good damage with AP too.
  3. The Cleveland and Atlanta (the Atlanta in particular has trouble trouble doing damage with hull hits, even with IFHE) do zero damage on a large number of hits. RN HE will deal damage on virtually every hit.
  4. BB HE does much more damage than cruiser HE, in addition to penetrating much more frequently, making the cruisers more reliant on fire damage. 
  5. The guns on both the Cleveland and the Atlanta are notoriously “floaty”. BBs are often stationary or sailing in strait lines, but they all have rudders fast enough to dodge farther than about 10km out (if they feel like not getting hit, that is).
  6. To hit at all, an Atlanta or Cleveland needs to be in range where it can easily get deleted.
  7. #5 and #6 together mean that no light cruiser is going to take the time to walk 4 fires onto a BB unless the BB is in a horrible position and elects to stay there for minutes. 
  8. There is counterplay to CLs spamming HE. You can dodge their floaty shells, or angle towards/away from them since they can generally only damage superstructures, and you deny them extra fire locations. Or you can delete them. I play BBs quite a bit, and even in my slow USN standards I can wiggle out to the 10km or so that it takes to stop an Atlanta or Cleveland from lobbing shells over a mountain at me. 
  9. There is no counterplay to a RN BB hitting you with multiple fires in consecutive volleys. I had that happen in my Arizona earlier today while I was angling and protecting myself on a push. A BB needs to be able to take hits to function, but RN HE is so effective against battleships that they really can’t do their job. I deal with cruiser HE all the time, and it lacks the initial damage, often fails to penetrate, and almost never hits me with more than 2 fires before I can break off. Even other BBs lack the effectiveness (and my NC takes a lot of BB HE on the chin). It’s a bad mechanic. 

 

The general point is that cruisers have nothing going for them except HE, where BBs also have great AP and armor, and just don’t need to rely on fire that much. 

 

 

 

lots wrong with this post

 

I can tell you for a fact, I can burn most BB with a Cleveland or Atlanta far quicker and keep it on fire than I can with a mid tier RN BB using HE.

 

1: I clearly did not say that or imply that, that is totally YOUR mistake.

2 quite the opposite, their AP is quite effective with most DD and CL/CA and CV, which is the majority of ships in most games.

3 again my experience differs from yours, because on average BOTH the Cleveland and Atlanta cause higher damage per game than mid tier RN BB using HE (I use mostly AP with my RN BB's)

4 Mr stating the obvious.

5 that is an advantage once your use to it

6 not if your wise and use islands or use your ability to change direction and speed to keep the relevant distance vs BB.

7 my experience says different.

8 at 10km if your in a BB trying to doge Atlanta or Cleveland shells then they must be firing salvoes rather than constantly walking shells onto you, and conversely your turrets are not going to train fast enough to be doing much accurate firing to counter them. 

9 your are acting like BB's of all nations don't spam HE to cause fires, especially of late, it is what most people do, its almost a surprise to have another BB fire AP at you now at mid tiers.

 

general point seams to be your butt hurt over BB HE fires and treat it as something new, when yawn its NOT.

Edited by b101uk

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Let's be realistic. This isn't an issue for all battleships. I'd laugh if I saw the QE, Warspite, Hood, or Monarch go strictly HE. 

 

For T7 Nelson even though it has nearly Identical guns as the Lion is only considered a "Gudboat" because it has a massive floating citadel with no other consumables than Zombie Heal + Damage Control, The KGV is nearly tied with the Nelson in regards of it's HE spam as well. but you don't hear any one complaining about that ship.

 

The big elephant in the room is the Conq. Honestly if they just restricted the Conq to the 457mm guns all of this would be over. 

Giving the Conq the 419 guns is like giving the Tirpitz the option to use the triple 283mm guns. People would swap to that in a heart beat just because it's a really nice gun. You'd HE spam the battleships and AP spam the cruisers.

Edited by Merlox

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52 minutes ago, b101uk said:

 

lots wrong with this post

 

I can tell you for a fact, I can burn most BB with a Cleveland or Atlanta far quicker and keep it on fire than I can with a mid tier RN BB using HE.

 

1: I clearly did not say that or imply that, that is totally YOUR mistake.

2 quite the opposite, their AP is quite effective with most DD and CL/CA and CV, which is the majority of ships in most games.

3 again my experience differs from yours, because on average BOTH the Cleveland and Atlanta cause higher damage per game than mid tier RN BB using HE (I use mostly AP with my RN BB's)

4 Mr stating the obvious.

5 that is an advantage once your use to it

6 not if your wise and use islands or use your ability to change direction and speed to keep the relevant distance vs BB.

7 my experience says different.

8 at 10km if your in a BB trying to doge Atlanta or Cleveland shells then they must be firing salvoes rather than constantly walking shells onto you, and conversely your turrets are not going to train fast enough to be doing much accurate firing to counter them. 

9 your are acting like BB's of all nations don't spam HE to cause fires, especially of late, it is what most people do, its almost a surprise to have another BB fire AP at you now at mid tiers.

 

general point seams to be your butt hurt over BB HE fires and treat it as something new, when yawn its NOT.

Okay, a few points there hotshot.

Number 3: No you don't. You average 26630 dmg per game in Cleveland and 18870 dmg in the Atlanta. You average 31298 in the Iron Duke, 37242 damage in the Orion, and 38745 in the QE. Even if you switched to mostly HE on the RN BB's, that amount of difference you still would rake in more damage with the BB against softer targets.

6. I seriously doubt you're using Islands and distance properly with how bad you perform in those 2 cruisers. You might grasp the concept but still haven't learned how to properly do it yet.

8. Even when walking fire, if they angle on you, they can force most of those HE hits to start falling on areas already saturated meaning less damage and on their main turrets for zero damage. Also, regardless of your angle, in my own experience with Fuso, New Mexico, and Bayern it's real easy to citadel an ATL and Cleveland even at a 45 degree angle at 12km distance. Considering ATL's abysmal range, the second I see one they usually don't survive the second salvo if the first one didn't erase them.

No, most of us don't like the idea that they literally got the German overmatch for high pen damage HE, the highest damage HE shell by far out of a BB, and to top it off a Fire Chance that at tier 10 is 2x higher than the next BB. One of those would have been okay, all 3 is just stupid. Then again, you haven't even got past tier 6 in a BB yet to know what it's like to have 25k HP removed with a single HE salvo. I had that happen to me with my North Carolina vs a Lion. The Lion isn't even the Conq and they pull that crap. I was even angled extensively to reduce my cross section. When you get 1/3rd of your HP removed by someone that doesn't even have to really try when you have to properly angle, aim right with the right ammo type, and use skill it gets really annoying. My ONLY concession is that as a DD main now, everytime I take my Benson out, I torp the Brit BB's first with that craptastic TDS system and laugh.

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5 hours ago, FireAndHEspam said:

And would you rather have that or BBs that can cit things with HE

 

They don't citadel any of my CAs but I play mostly tier X.  Plus they have the same HE pen value as KM BBs, so it's not unheard of.  They need to fix the concealment and citadels.  Maybe a sight chance to set fire nerf to bring them back in line with the other BBs.  Not to mention until tier X they have a shorter range then other BBs in their tier.   In my monarch I am giving up like 3kms to KM and USN BBs, in addition to having weaker AP.  

 

Now I will completely agree that their citadel being on the keel of the ship needs to be fixed.  The entire point of having that strong heal was to off set it being less durable but it didn't work out that way...

 

 

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9 hours ago, FireAndHEspam said:

Honestly just take away like 70-80% of their current fire chance and give them the standard /6 HE pen instead of /4

^Werd!

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18 minutes ago, Bril01 said:

 

They don't citadel any of my CAs but I play mostly tier X.  Plus they have the same HE pen value as KM BBs, so it's not unheard of.  They need to fix the concealment and citadels.  Maybe a sight chance to set fire nerf to bring them back in line with the other BBs.  Not to mention until tier X they have a shorter range then other BBs in their tier.   In my monarch I am giving up like 3kms to KM and USN BBs, in addition to having weaker AP.  

 

Now I will completely agree that their citadel being on the keel of the ship needs to be fixed.  The entire point of having that strong heal was to off set it being less durable but it didn't work out that way...

 

 

Due to the 114mm pen, and the fact they use them a lot more they can Citadel the following that they would see. Zao, Ibuki, Mogami, Chapayev, Donskoi, Kutuzov, Minotaur, Neptune, Edinburgh, Charles Martel, Saint Louis, Henry (this one is a bit more annoying due to spacing.)

Mind you, all of the above is belt hits.

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16 minutes ago, Azumazi said:

Okay, a few points there hotshot.

Number 3: No you don't. You average 26630 dmg per game in Cleveland and 18870 dmg in the Atlanta. You average 31298 in the Iron Duke, 37242 damage in the Orion, and 38745 in the QE. Even if you switched to mostly HE on the RN BB's, that amount of difference you still would rake in more damage with the BB against softer targets.

6. I seriously doubt you're using Islands and distance properly with how bad you perform in those 2 cruisers. You might grasp the concept but still haven't learned how to properly do it yet.

8. Even when walking fire, if they angle on you, they can force most of those HE hits to start falling on areas already saturated meaning less damage and on their main turrets for zero damage. Also, regardless of your angle, in my own experience with Fuso, New Mexico, and Bayern it's real easy to citadel an ATL and Cleveland even at a 45 degree angle at 12km distance. Considering ATL's abysmal range, the second I see one they usually don't survive the second salvo if the first one didn't erase them.

No, most of us don't like the idea that they literally got the German overmatch for high pen damage HE, the highest damage HE shell by far out of a BB, and to top it off a Fire Chance that at tier 10 is 2x higher than the next BB. One of those would have been okay, all 3 is just stupid. Then again, you haven't even got past tier 6 in a BB yet to know what it's like to have 25k HP removed with a single HE salvo. I had that happen to me with my North Carolina vs a Lion. The Lion isn't even the Conq and they pull that crap. I was even angled extensively to reduce my cross section. When you get 1/3rd of your HP removed by someone that doesn't even have to really try when you have to properly angle, aim right with the right ammo type, and use skill it gets really annoying. My ONLY concession is that as a DD main now, everytime I take my Benson out, I torp the Brit BB's first with that craptastic TDS system and laugh.

 

number 3, I do play on more than one server, and most of my games in the mid tier RN BB are using mostly AP, as I pointed out in my post, as I have already done the maths with HE, I on average get more with AP than with HE, but you wont know that will you, and I am far from the only person who predominantly uses AP

 

6 you can "seriously doubt" from you head up [edited] position all you like, there is clearly lots you don't grasp.

 

8 sure you can try, and it may work sometimes and others it wont, likewise not everyone in the Cleveland or Atlanta is going to be attacking BB from the open as the only ship so they become focused, instead they will use much more opportunistic methods and their ability to reach over things in the 11km to 13km range (or 12km to 14km in the case of the Cleveland) when they are not doing their main job of DD and other CL/CA or CV's.

 

sure people don't like a lot of things, but there are quite a long list of things the UK did differently to most other nations, from using low explosive propellants that give a more controlled push, to on average having heavier HE shells than their US, German and Japanese counterpart equivalent calibres, that contained a bursting charge that was on average bigger, and that's before you even get to the list of explosives developed in the UK during WW2, logic would dictate if your delivering more explosive in a HE shell, then the chemical energy released will be larger.

e.g.

Bismarck, 380mm (14.96") HE shell = 800kg with a ~64.2kg bursting charge.

Iowa, 16" (406mm) HE shell = 862kg with a ~69.7kg bursting charge.

Nagato, 410mm (16.14") HE shell = 938.5kg with a ~44.3kg bursting charge.

Queen Elizabeth, 15" (381mm) HE shell = 891kg with a 59kg to 101.6kg bursting charge.

Orion, 13.5" (343mm) HE shell = 635kg with a 80.1kg bursting charge.

Bellerophon, 12" (305mm) HE shell = 386kg with a 48.3kg bursting charge.

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5 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

 

It doesn't matter.

 

Because no matter what, in my Cruisers, it is exquisitely rare to citadel a CA with HE gunfire, even RN BBs!  The only ones that are getting frequently HE-LOLPENCIT'ed are the trash low tier CLs with armor so thin that cardboard would be more suitable to protect them.

 

AP?  AP has that chance to tell the Cruiser or even BB, "Nice of you to hit BATTLE but it's time to send your a$$ to port.  Sorry, bruh" in one salvo.  Do you get overpens?  Yes.  Do you get nonpens?  Yes.  But let's be honest, BB players absolutely LIVE for the big, flashy penetrating, citadel-striking salvos.

 

HE does not end the fight quickly, then and there.  AP does.

 

HE and Fire damage can be mitigated.  Fires are a big part, correct?

 

Manage your angles so that you cannot get both superstructure portions and the last hull portion to get set on fire.   Show a lot of sides, like AP, you'll pay for it, as that is how you get 3-4 fires set on you.  Show a limited profile, you get, what?  2 fires set on you at best?  Not to mention there are traits, upgrades, to limit the amount of fires that can be set on you, lessen the time fires can burn on you.

 

You also can repair back a large amount of fire damage done.  AP and Citadel Strikes?  No, that's going to stick way more.

 

Manage your angles, consumables.  You can take extra build actions to lessen the dangers of fires.  Or not.  And just make threads complaining about fires.

 

Again, let's not pretend like fire starting ships never existed before.  With the likes of Belfast, Zao, Henri IV, etc, they were setting ships ablaze.  Montana has an underrated ability to put ships ablaze when needed.  Even with the Fire Starters that existed even before RN BBs arrived, you had to know what to do to mitigate the dangers of fire.

 

RN BBs bring nothing new.  Fire Starting is a long established thing in WoWS, as well as the means to deal with it.

Ramble much? Make sense much? Re read your post and then please delete it. Lay off the booze.

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This thread reminds me of when Atlanta was just released during Beta, before her fire chance was nerfed. There were so many cries from her BB victims  demanding nerfs.

 

Every time I see a BB shoot nothing but HE at my cruiser or battleship, I become disappointed in their inability to utilize the potential of AP shells. I just see this whole debacle as what happens when people never bother to think about swapping shells. If you spam HE, you'll never delete cruisers or battleships, whilst spamming AP will let people angle into your fire to negate your damage.

 

Yes, I know a thirty second reload doesn't let you swap shells on the fly like a cruiser or a destroyer, but shell loading is another thing that you plan ahead on, along with all other things you'd plan ahead on in a BB. Always look at the map, for it will hold all of the hints.

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I don't own a Conq but I have a KGV. To me KGV is balanced, you can't take heavy pressure like other BB, you are easily set on fire / pen by most BB plundging shells. Your AP is doing...meh against anything that is angled, even against same tier cruiser (exception being Fiji) but your HE is doing great overall. Dispersion is ok i guess, but i really have hard time landing those massive hit like other BB.

 

If we are talking about nerfing HE, then we should also consider buffing AP, which is not something i would enjoy. If we buff AP and nerf HE it will probably end up like playing another BB with stupid AP so powerfull against everything that is useless to switch ammo. In the end, what is the point playing a RN BB with powerfull AP ? It would just be a Montana with less AA power but better concealment.

 

I see 2 way of nerfing Conq without really affecting this idea of switching ammo type :

 

-1: Reduce fire chance but keep current the 1/4 pen and HE damage.-----> High alpha strike but low fire chance

-2: Reduce HE damage and change the 1/4 to 1/6 pen but keep the current fire chance.------------> Low alpha strike but high fire chance

 

Another trait of the Conqueror is her super heal but since i don't own the ship i can't tell how much it can affect the gameplay

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