Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
You need to play a total of 5 battles to post in this section.
Admiral_Thrawn_1

Potential Problems with New Smoke Changes

22 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

1,268
[RKLES]
Members
7,198 posts
8,955 battles

One that I am nervous about with DD gameplay is the smoke changes since the current smoke while being able to hide BBs and Cruisers also hit the torpedoes you sent into the smoke to flush out the enemy and often they never had their chance to run and were instead sunk or at least very badly damaged. So this type of attack might be rendered less useful as a result.

 

The other major concern I have is the notes on Smoke changes mentioned BBs not be able to hide which might be ok, but Also mentioned Heavy Cruisers not being able to hide either and this could be one of the biggest problems with the changes considering that IJN Cruisers become Heavy Cruisers at tier 5 something the other Cruiser lines do not get until maybe tier 7 or some lines Definately become Heavy Cruisers at tier 8. The exception on German line being Graf Spee which is a tier 6 Heavy Cruiser.

This may hurt my teams as well since especially when there are many enemy DDs I will wolf pack with 1 or more DDs and assist them with hunting enemy DDs which my doing that usually does not generate any complaints from my team since they usually are very much in favor of enemy DDs getting sunk.

But now I may have harder time with the hide and seek in Smoke that often ends up happening since an allied DD might lay Smoke to cover my repositioning and enemy DD will then strafe the Smoke with Torps and shells which is often useless since I am already out of it and the Smoke was just used to aid me for a moment and as a decoy.

If the Smoke changes are meant for top tier Heavy Cruisers that will be ok since at least they have the HP heals but low tier Heavy Cruisers do not so their weapons and stealth are main defenses since while armor can bounce some good glancing hits it does not stand up to focused fire forever. And maybe the lower tier Heavy Cruisers need to be  exempt  from the Smoke changes against Heavy Cruisers or maybe just add HP Heals to them just like their high tier cousins get.

Edited by Admiral_Thrawn_1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
695
[USCC2]
Members
3,558 posts

Well in some cases where the ships may have been hit in smoke by torps, now they will be hit by other ships as they will be seen(?)

I believe individual ranges for detection in smoke has already been released as well. Hopefully WG will include the info on Wiki as well as in game so people can be aware of the changes - then I guess its learning the ranges like you would learn any other mechanic in game. :Smile_honoring:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,270
[NERO]
Members
3,542 posts

I'm pretty sure all ships, even BBs, get /some/ bonus to concealment even when firing from inside of smoke. They mentioned in the notes on the PT post that they want to remove the scenario of BBs and CAs sitting at close range in smoke and firing devastating salvos with impunity. You're still going to be able to camp in smoke from further away and stay unseen, it's just going to be closer to your normal max firing range if you have bigger guns. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,337
[CRMSN]
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
5,404 posts
3,583 battles

I wonder if the avg damage of DD's will drop across the board due to less targets sitting still in smoke and taking massive torpedo damage...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
403
[WOLF5]
Members
1,537 posts
2,126 battles

The smoke firing penalty isn't based ship type, it's based on gun caliber. So the low tier light cruisers will still be OK. But, at the same time, the idea is to get some of these ships out of the smoke.

 

If your DD play is dependent on torping morons sitting in smoke, then something is wrong. There's a reason I usually don't sit in smoke with my BB, it's torpedoes.

 

Also, interesting side note, but CVs also prevent camping. Was in my IA yesterday, and the Test GZ tried to torp me. I knocked everything down before he had a chance to drop. Later on, I was bow on happily blasting away (I was on the front line with my team), moving very slowly. I'd been hosed pretty good with HE, so the AA was down. As soon as I saw the strike coming in, I knew I was toast. I knock down a few, but those deep water torps did me in. Camping BB eliminated!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Testers
1,481 posts
8,958 battles

I don't like the changes in general.  I think they are unnecessary.  However while I can live with detection range increases, I think the idea that you would be detected for the same amount of time (20 seconds) after you fire your guns whether you were sitting in smoke or out in the open is completely asinine.   What?  Do your guns blow a hole in the smoke that takes 20 seconds for the smoke cloud to close back in and conceal you again (despite the fact that your guns actually added smoke to the mix)?  Does your muzzle flash keep echoing through the smoke for 20 seconds keeping you lit for that entire time?  No.  The smoke is still blocking line of sight.  At best, your muzzle flash made zeroing in on your position a little easier than following your tracers.  That is what this change should be simulating, not making you completely visible for the same amount of time you would be if you were out in the open sea.

A person in smoke is already extremely vulnerable due to the fact that they are moving very slowly at best.  Having them lit for a full 20 seconds while they are in smoke and line of sight is still obstructed simply because they fired their guns is unreasonable.  If they are going to make this change, the detection time should be drastically reduced.  It is not like they are going to be able to dodge incoming fire easily, and even getting lit for a couple of seconds gives people time to adjust aim and fire if that target is already their priority. 

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,710
[HINON]
Modder, In AlfaTesters, Beta Testers
6,498 posts
3,751 battles

Any info you need on the exact ranges can be found here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,183
[NOVA]
Members
11,026 posts

Imo, with these smoke changes, WG should start trying to give BBs smoke purely for defense.

 

Like Perth smoke, except shorter work time, maybe long enough for a BB to pull a 180 at 1/2-3/4 speed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,418
[HINON]
Supertester
7,523 posts
7,578 battles
42 minutes ago, AJTP89 said:

The smoke firing penalty isn't based ship type, it's based on gun caliber. So the low tier light cruisers will still be OK. But, at the same time, the idea is to get some of these ships out of the smoke.

 

If your DD play is dependent on torping morons sitting in smoke, then something is wrong. There's a reason I usually don't sit in smoke with my BB, it's torpedoes.

 

Also, interesting side note, but CVs also prevent camping. Was in my IA yesterday, and the Test GZ tried to torp me. I knocked everything down before he had a chance to drop. Later on, I was bow on happily blasting away (I was on the front line with my team), moving very slowly. I'd been hosed pretty good with HE, so the AA was down. As soon as I saw the strike coming in, I knew I was toast. I knock down a few, but those deep water torps did me in. Camping BB eliminated!

:Smile_great:

Edited by renegadestatuz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,337
[CRMSN]
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
5,404 posts
3,583 battles
16 minutes ago, renegadestatuz said:

:Smile_great:

If its based on gun caliber, why does the Gearing have higher detection than the Fletcher?

 

Or why is the Grozovoi at 2.9 and the Khab at 4? 

 

According to that link, its based off of the ship hull in question. So its Caliber and Concealment. 

 

Which means the new tier 10 Pan Asian DD will have the the best smoke firing concealment in game. 

 

You could essentially outplay a Gearing/ Shim / Groz by keeping him auto detected at 2.83 km while he shoots and you could return fire without being revealed. Sounds pretty stupid IMO 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,418
[HINON]
Supertester
7,523 posts
7,578 battles
4 minutes ago, Cobraclutch said:

If its based on gun caliber, why does the Gearing have higher detection than the Fletcher?

 

Or why is the Grozovoi at 2.9 and the Khab at 4? 

 

According to that link, its based off of the ship hull in question. So its Caliber and Concealment. 

 

Which means the new tier 10 Pan Asian DD will have the the best smoke firing concealment in game. 

 

You could essentially outplay a Gearing by keeping him auto detected at 2.83 km while he shoots and you could return fire without being revealed. Sounds pretty stupid IMO 

Each ship type will have it’s own standard detection. Then from there each ship from within the type will have it’s own detection based around that standard detection. So it varies from ship to ship. But each ship in a ship type is originally balanced around a set parameter.

027EDC5B-57FE-425B-9F77-AFC388A041AE.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,710
[HINON]
Modder, In AlfaTesters, Beta Testers
6,498 posts
3,751 battles

The changes will be something to get used to, but overall, they'll stop Yamatos and Montanas sitting in smoke under 15km and shooting with impunity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
370
[HELLS]
Members
1,702 posts
15,518 battles

They should have left it alone. It worked for weaker ships as it was. I was not in favor of the big change they made, and now that I have played with it for a while I don't like it. Lower the visibility window after firing from smoke to 12 seconds. If the guy that spots you is not lined up beforehand to shoot at you (and traverse times on BBs and cruisers are what they are), then a team mate might be. The other element is if I fire from smoke, thereby revealing my position, I should be able to spot close-in targets (6 km or less-outside most CL/CA hydro range)  myself for the same 12 seconds. Enough is enough.

My RN cruiser play has dropped drastically since the smoke nerf, because that is all the help I get running those ships, which are overgrown slow torpedo boats that need spotters to work properly. Using islands for cover does not work if you are spawned in the wrong place! DD play is one whole lot tougher, to the point where I rarely use smoke at all except to cover my escape after relying on stealth alone to get within decent torpedo range, hoping an enemy aircraft does not show up!. If you wish to keep smoke the way it is, give the RN cruisers HE like everyone else. And not Belfast HE either (I know, I own one!)! Or at least allow RN cruiser players the option, HE or smoke but not both at once.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,337
[CRMSN]
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
5,404 posts
3,583 battles
2 minutes ago, renegadestatuz said:

Each ship type will have it’s own standard detection. Then from there each ship from within the type will have it’s own detection based around that standard detection. So it varies from ship to ship. But each ship in a ship type is originally balanced around a set parameter.

027EDC5B-57FE-425B-9F77-AFC388A041AE.png

Which essentially creates different detection ranges within same gun classes. 

Hsiang Yang,  will essentially have a small gap that it can exploit against other tier X DD's (outside of Khab and Z-52 (Hydro)) 

 

So you have 2 ships that are essentially the same in gunnery, that have 2 completely detection ranges while firing in smoke. 

 

IMO this is a bad decision.  The bloom should be based off of gunnery caliber, and not mixed in with hull detection. It creates imbalances between classes that can easily be exploited by good players to allow no win situations. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,337
[CRMSN]
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
5,404 posts
3,583 battles
14 minutes ago, renegadestatuz said:

 

Maybe you can help me with this dilemma?

 

The Nicholas according to that post, has a lower smoke bloom detection then Kagero. 

 

But the Kagero has a much lower  detection (5.34) vs (5.85) 

 

Does this mean its caculated on base detection of the hull, without modifiers?

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,418
[HINON]
Supertester
7,523 posts
7,578 battles
4 minutes ago, Cobraclutch said:

Maybe you can help me with this dilemma?

 

The Nicholas according to that post, has a lower smoke bloom detection then Kagero. 

 

But the Kagero has a much lower  detection (5.34) vs (5.85) 

 

Does this mean its caculated on base detection of the hull, without modifiers?

 

 

I honestly have no clue. They haven’t given out any info on how they came up with the detections for each ship. I wish I knew though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
825 posts
13,665 battles

The problem is that we have detection by air, by sea, by air when firing, by sea when firing, in smoke when firing by air, and in smoke when firing by sea...... and ofc these follows different rules, since they could not cure OWSF in some sort of intelligent manner.

 

So they refuse to touch bloom duration, but now there are so many bloom distances that it doesn't make any sense anymore.

 

and one could wonder. If you can detect ships in smoke, I assume that the smoke density is not great. So what if a ship is sitting in double smoke ? surely, the smoke cloud would be much denser, so we could also get a detection range for that

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,268
[RKLES]
Members
7,198 posts
8,955 battles
8 hours ago, AJTP89 said:

The smoke firing penalty isn't based ship type, it's based on gun caliber. So the low tier light cruisers will still be OK. But, at the same time, the idea is to get some of these ships out of the smoke.

 

If your DD play is dependent on torping morons sitting in smoke, then something is wrong. There's a reason I usually don't sit in smoke with my BB, it's torpedoes.

 

Also, interesting side note, but CVs also prevent camping. Was in my IA yesterday, and the Test GZ tried to torp me. I knocked everything down before he had a chance to drop. Later on, I was bow on happily blasting away (I was on the front line with my team), moving very slowly. I'd been hosed pretty good with HE, so the AA was down. As soon as I saw the strike coming in, I knew I was toast. I knock down a few, but those deep water torps did me in. Camping BB eliminated!

IJN Cruisers may still be in trouble because they often pack the largest gun calibers at their tiers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,418
[HINON]
Supertester
7,523 posts
7,578 battles
3 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

IJN Cruisers may still be in trouble because they often pack the largest gun calibers at their tiers.

If you look up a few posts, @Doomlockhas already posted a thread with all the detections for all ships firing from within smoke.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alpha Tester
3,436 posts
3,871 battles

The notion that a ship can exploit the generally less than 1km differences between most of the destroyers is ridiculous. As is the notion that .83 km of additional detection range is a meaningful nerf. Even the 2km on Khabarovsk is very, very marginal of a difference. Like seriously, it takes what, 5-10 seconds to cross that? Good luck trying to react before someone closes the range. It might give detection/reaction advantage over the other destroyer, but it won't on its own win a gunfight for you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,043
Members
3,775 posts
14,010 battles

How about we all wait and see how it works out before acting like the sky is falling? :cap_old:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×