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Viper101

War Gaming.... Why?

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Now I understand the historical basis for having the British BB flavor be a high explosive centered line. 

 

But for gameplay? It's absolutely broken. 

Flamu recently uploaded a match where he calls the Conqueror the "most brain dead ship to ever be introduced into this game". 

Well, he's right, but he also fails to mention that the RNBB line is probably the most brain dead line to EVER be released in the game. 

 

How is it fair to any game play that a ship line can be able to punish players no matter what?

Trying to brawl in your German BB? Too bad, three fires. Pop your repair? Three more fires. 

Trying to torp someone in your Japanese DD? Deleted by a single HE salvo. 

Grinding a cruiser line? Citadeled with HE. 

 

And its not even bad for those you're fighting, its awful for the community as a whole. 

The introduction of this line teaches new players that they can just sail broadside on, because no matter how they angle, it doesn't matter. 

And that is the complete wrong direction to go. 

 

What should be done? 

The first option I thought of as writing this was take away the HE of the RNBBs. But only sort of. 

Give them a true APHE shot. 

Bring the fire chances to within five percent of other tech trees, and keep the same penetration values. 

 

Much like the RNCLs, but with an actual fire chance. 

 

 

But as they stand right now, the new RNBBs are broken, over powered, game breaking messes of a ship line.

 

I was extremely excited for this line, but sadly with the direction war gaming has gone, they screwed the pooch with this one. 

 

At least they will be pretty to look at at the end of the day. 

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21 minutes ago, Viper101 said:

Now I understand the historical basis for having the British BB flavor be a high explosive centered line. 

 

But for gameplay? It's absolutely broken. 

Flamu recently uploaded a match where he calls the Conqueror the "most brain dead ship to ever be introduced into this game". 

Well, he's right, but he also fails to mention that the RNBB line is probably the most brain dead line to EVER be released in the game. 

 

How is it fair to any game play that a ship line can be able to punish players no matter what?

Trying to brawl in your German BB? Too bad, three fires. Pop your repair? Three more fires. 

Trying to torp someone in your Japanese DD? Deleted by a single HE salvo. 

Grinding a cruiser line? Citadeled with HE. 

 

And its not even bad for those you're fighting, its awful for the community as a whole. 

The introduction of this line teaches new players that they can just sail broadside on, because no matter how they angle, it doesn't matter. 

And that is the complete wrong direction to go. 

 

What should be done? 

The first option I thought of as writing this was take away the HE of the RNBBs. But only sort of. 

Give them a true APHE shot. 

Bring the fire chances to within five percent of other tech trees, and keep the same penetration values. 

 

Much like the RNCLs, but with an actual fire chance. 

 

 

But as they stand right now, the new RNBBs are broken, over powered, game breaking messes of a ship line.

 

I was extremely excited for this line, but sadly with the direction war gaming has gone, they screwed the pooch with this one. 

 

At least they will be pretty to look at at the end of the day. 

I appreciate your sentiment and mostly agree.  Mostly.

I do kinda agree that the entire RN BB line has a brain dead play style, i.e. HE spamming.

As for some of your examples, I'm in slightly less agreement.  Vaporized by RN BB HE in a DD?  Ummm, if you happened to run into any other nation's BBs and its guns were loaded with HE, you'd get trashed well and proper as well, though RN BB's do have more powerful (raw HE damage) HE shells than other nations for historical reasons.  But the biggest thing really isn't the power of the HE shells more than it is that fact that because RN BB's will be using HE most of the time, you're more likely to run across a BB with HE rather than AP loaded, which of course is bad news for any DD.

Getting citadelled by HE in a cruiser?  Not sure why RN BBs HE should come with the 1/4 thing going for them rather than the normal 1/6.

Regardless, this is what happens when the game uses this foolish national flavor gimmick rather than just letting each nation's ships be what they were historically, and letting the historical differences stand on their own merits.  At some point, you run out of reasonably decent "gimmicks" and get forced to use silly, potentially OP, or at least game play wrecking gimmicks, which IMO is what we're seeing with the RN BB line.

 

(BTW, RN BB's are NOT "broken".  They function as intended and the game doesn't crash due to their inclusion.  Their design is flawed.)

As for what should be done, that's easy.  Cut the national flavor cr*p.  And just make RN BB's like all other nations' BBs.  Design them so that AP will be their de facto ammo of choice.  I don't mind if the (true) RN BBs (as opposed to the RN BCs which will eventually get into the game as "battleships", but aren't true battleships) have stout armor.  I don't mind if their Heal parties are perhaps somewhat stronger than normal, though the superheals may be taking it too far.  They should have their HP totals be similar to same tier BBs of other nations, and not depend on a superheal gimmick to make them effectively have more HP than you see in their base HP total.  Their HE could have a larger base damage number to reflect historical reality, but they don't necessarily need that 1/4 penning thing or such an incredibly high fire chance.

I don't know if there was anything the Royal Navy was historically known to excel at, like gunnery or damage control or whatever.  But if there was such a point of excellence, I suppose that that could be used, though in moderation and not to excess.

 

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The RN BB line is fine. The Orion could probably be tamped down a hair, and perhaps the KGV. But the rest of it is mediocre, with the Monarch being just plain garbage. 

Just compare their all time solo win rates. This has been discussed incessantly and there are many posts. Damage is not translating into win rates, because it is not meaningful damage. 

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1 minute ago, Taichunger said:

The RN BB line is fine. The Orion could probably be tamped down a hair, and perhaps the KGV. But the rest of it is mediocre, with the Monarch being just plain garbage. 

Just compare their all time solo win rates. This has been discussed incessantly and there are many posts. Damage is not translating into win rates, because it is not meaningful damage. 

Win rate on BBs that aren't particularly suited to pushing and holding caps doesn't show everything.  Average XP earned is a much better tool to judge how they perform.

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9 minutes ago, Sirus_Patton said:

Win rate on BBs that aren't particularly suited to pushing and holding caps doesn't show everything.  Average XP earned is a much better tool to judge how they perform.

 

Well, I prefer Ws to XP... and lots of that XP is related to their gaudy damage numbers. How is it that GK and Yammy have lower XP but higher solo win rates, if Conk is performing better? Answer is: Conk's numbers are inflated by its crazy damage numbers. Want XP? Get in Conk. Want to win? The other three T10 BBs are better....

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RN?  Is that short for Royal Navy?  

 

Is the OP positing that Brittish Battleships are OP (and therefore beginners like me should be interested in pursuing them since they will make us competitive without having to spend too much time learning the nuances of the game)?

Edited by OldFrog75
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32 minutes ago, Crucis said:

I appreciate your sentiment and mostly agree.  Mostly.

I do kinda agree that the entire RN BB line has a brain dead play style, i.e. HE spamming.

As for some of your examples, I'm in slightly less agreement.  Vaporized by RN BB HE in a DD?  Ummm, if you happened to run into any other nation's BBs and its guns were loaded with HE, you'd get trashed well and proper as well, though RN BB's do have more powerful (raw HE damage) HE shells than other nations for historical reasons.  But the biggest thing really isn't the power of the HE shells more than it is that fact that because RN BB's will be using HE most of the time, you're more likely to run across a BB with HE rather than AP loaded, which of course is bad news for any DD.

Getting citadelled by HE in a cruiser?  Not sure why RN BBs HE should come with the 1/4 thing going for them rather than the normal 1/6.

Regardless, this is what happens when the game uses this foolish national flavor gimmick rather than just letting each nation's ships be what they were historically, and letting the historical differences stand on their own merits.  At some point, you run out of reasonably decent "gimmicks" and get forced to use silly, potentially OP, or at least game play wrecking gimmicks, which IMO is what we're seeing with the RN BB line.

 

(BTW, RN BB's are NOT "broken".  They function as intended and the game doesn't crash due to their inclusion.  Their design is flawed.)

As for what should be done, that's easy.  Cut the national flavor cr*p.  And just make RN BB's like all other nations' BBs.  Design them so that AP will be their de facto ammo of choice.  I don't mind if the (true) RN BBs (as opposed to the RN BCs which will eventually get into the game as "battleships", but aren't true battleships) have stout armor.  I don't mind if their Heal parties are perhaps somewhat stronger than normal, though the superheals may be taking it too far.  They should have their HP totals be similar to same tier BBs of other nations, and not depend on a superheal gimmick to make them effectively have more HP than you see in their base HP total.  Their HE could have a larger base damage number to reflect historical reality, but they don't necessarily need that 1/4 penning thing or such an incredibly high fire chance.

I don't know if there was anything the Royal Navy was historically known to excel at, like gunnery or damage control or whatever.  But if there was such a point of excellence, I suppose that that could be used, though in moderation and not to excess.

 

First: The DDs, you're right, any BB that is loaded with AP will shave off a huge portion of any DDs health. 

Second: On the cruisers, yes its possible for other ships to do so, but only at low tiers, so I may change it. 

 

Third: YES PLEASE NO MORE NATIONAL FLAVOR!!!!!!

I agree with the super heal, though I think Nelson should retain it.

And I'm with you on the penetration and high fire chance. It should be reduced a little bit. 

 

It's just sickening how much damage these ships can do, with little to no skill involved. 

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27 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

The RN BB line is fine. The Orion could probably be tamped down a hair, and perhaps the KGV. But the rest of it is mediocre, with the Monarch being just plain garbage. 

Just compare their all time solo win rates. This has been discussed incessantly and there are many posts. Damage is not translating into win rates, because it is not meaningful damage. 

Yup, cuz the HE spamming is a purely selfish, irritating to no end, [edited] game mechanic that just needs to go away for BBs. 

Its FAR more productive to shoot AP and get the big numbers from a BB, over spamming HE at everything. 

The RN line design choices, just wow....

WG shoulda stuck with "well protected and heavily armored" as the British "flavor".  Maybe a lil' higher HE damage for their super charge rounds, but nothing like these things.  I can totally feel for the irritation that people must feel facing those things. 

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4 hours ago, Taichunger said:

Just compare their all time solo win rates. This has been discussed incessantly and there are many posts. Damage is not translating into win rates, because it is not meaningful damage. 

Not meaningful damage, WOW are you blind?  Each salvo setting 3 fires, over and over and over with a shorter reload.  I don't care if it doesn't translate to a higher winrate, plus the ungodly dispersion you get.  Now they die when focused just like anything else, but one on one at range with another tier 10 bb it burns them all to the waterline.  And that my friend is what people are pissed about.  Let me guess you own one and are enjoying the HE spam while laughing as you set more fires than a zao running demo and flags.

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8 hours ago, OldFrog75 said:

RN?  Is that short for Royal Navy?  

 

Is the OP positing that Brittish Battleships are OP (and therefore beginners like me should be interested in pursuing them since they will make us competitive without having to spend too much time learning the nuances of the game)?

1.  Yes, RN does happen to be short for Royal Navy.  Some others... If you see VMF, that's the (Russian language) initials for the Soviet navy.  And the German navy's initials are either SMS for WW1 era ships (SMS being the German initials for His Majesty's Ship, like HMS for the RN), or KMS for KriegsMarine Ship for WW2 era ships.  

2. Sort of, though not exactly.  The problem with the British BB line is that since its primary ammo of choice is HE.  And since HE doesn't much care what angle your target is sailing at relative to your ship, he's saying that the Brit BB line isn't teaching new players some of the more important lessons of good battleship play, such as learning to angle your BB relative to the enemy, to improve the effective value of your armor.  This is because, again, HE doesn't care about relative angles, etc.  You just aim it at the enemy and fire.  It's a generally brain-dead, skill-less ammo, whereas AP requires more skill, both in terms of aiming and defending against it.

When you're defending against AP, you want to angle your ship relative to the enemy ship you're defending again and NOT show a perfectly flat broadside.  And when you're aiming AP against anything other than a DD, your intention is usually to aim for the citadels.  There's a fair amount of skill there.  You need to know where the citadels are.  They're usually under the smoke stacks of BBs, CAs, and CVs; and under the main gun turrets of BBs and CAs.  Aim at the waterline in these locations and your chances of getting citadel hits improves.  German BBs tend to be exceptionally difficult to citadel, so knowledgeable players will aim for the top edge of the hull, rather than the waterline, looking to get plain old "major damage" hits (i.e. 1/3 of a citadel hit).

Anyways, good luck with the game.  While it can seem difficult, in my opinion, it's not nearly as difficult as some people might think.  There are a number of good instructional youtube videos for World of Warships that can help a great deal.  iChase has a series called Captain's Academy, as I recall, that covers a number of topics.  They're well worth checking out.

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4 hours ago, knice_destroyer said:

Not meaningful damage, WOW are you blind?  Each salvo setting 3 fires, over and over and over with a shorter reload.  I don't care if it doesn't translate to a higher winrate, plus the ungodly dispersion you get.  Now they die when focused just like anything else, but one on one at range with another tier 10 bb it burns them all to the waterline.  And that my friend is what people are pissed about.  Let me guess you own one and are enjoying the HE spam while laughing as you set more fires than a zao running demo and flags.

No, taichunger is a good player who's been around since Closed Beta, at least.  I won't say that he's an opinion you should respect or not.  That's up to you.  As for me, I honestly don't remember one way or the other whether his is an opinion I should respect.  (Don't take that as an insult, Tai.  My memory's not what it used to be.) 

Regardless of all that, tai is no noob.  He's got a lot of battles under his belt, and is a pretty good player with pretty good stats.  So, I think that it's at least safe to say that he's not blind.  You may not agree with him.  But he's not some hack with terrible stats who can be dismissed out of hand.

 

 

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9 hours ago, Taichunger said:

The RN BB line is fine. The Orion could probably be tamped down a hair, and perhaps the KGV. But the rest of it is mediocre, with the Monarch being just plain garbage. 

Just compare their all time solo win rates. This has been discussed incessantly and there are many posts. Damage is not translating into win rates, because it is not meaningful damage. 

Honestly, Tai, I don't think that the RN BB line is fine.  This is a case where I don't think that looking at WR's or XP means anything.  I think that the HE spamming play style of the RN BB line is atrocious and bad for the game.  I would have much rather than RN BB's had stayed with the general formula for battleships that's been pretty good for the game thus far.  That is, BBs' ammo of choice should be AP and HE should be seen as more of a special use ammo choice.  

I also don't like this superheal.  It's too damned gimmicky. I'd rather that the RN BBs that have superheal just had base HP totals that were in line with other same tier BBs and had heals that were also in line with other same tier BBs.  I have no problem with true RN BB's being tough.  (I don't count RN battlecruisers as "true" battleships, and think that they really should not be tough.  HP similar to same tier RN true BBs, but weaker armor, easier to hit citadels, etc.)

 

 

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Not sure if the stats back up these claims. i just checked warships today and the Conqueror is on the third page when sorting for win rate.It is first in damage dealt, but evidently that is not powerful enough to carry. More time for a larger sample size is definitely called for.

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Just now, JdeMolay said:

Not sure if the stats back up these claims. i just checked warships today and the Conqueror is on the third page when sorting for win rate.It is first in damage dealt, but evidently that is not powerful enough to carry. More time for a larger sample size is definitely called for.

 

Makes sense though, even in a 1v1 basis. Enemy heals give you the chance to repair damage, but the fire DOT adds more damage, which in turn can all be healed.

 

So, assuming an enemy BB with equal HP, but using AP, the Conq can easily do a lot more damage, but still be sunk first, while the enemy survives.

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10 hours ago, Taichunger said:

The RN BB line is fine. The Orion could probably be tamped down a hair, and perhaps the KGV. But the rest of it is mediocre, with the Monarch being just plain garbage. 

Just compare their all time solo win rates. This has been discussed incessantly and there are many posts. Damage is not translating into win rates, because it is not meaningful damage. 

 

You can't repair if you're sunk, and that's the fate of every high tier BB that wishes to stand toe to toe with a conqueror for a minute. the damage that's not "meaningful" is that small chip damage any other battleship does when firing at another battleship that's angled against them in comparison to what Conqueror can do to a battleship. Other ship classes share the exact same fate as well, Conqueror doesn't discriminate in its HE power.

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15 hours ago, Crucis said:

Regardless of all that, tai is no noob.  He's got a lot of battles under his belt, and is a pretty good player with pretty good stats.  So, I think that it's at least safe to say that he's not blind.  You may not agree with him.  But he's not some hack with terrible stats who can be dismissed out of hand

Never said he was a noob.  I just laugh at the fact that he said no "meaningful damage" done by the conqueror.  I'm sorry this game is trending more and more to Battleships just do everything that Cruisers are supposed to do but with more health.  Face a 3 man conqueror division plus a few zaos or moskavas in there and tell me how long u last with continuous he spam.   

Edited by knice_destroyer

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9 hours ago, knice_destroyer said:

Never said he was a noob.  I just laugh at the fact that he said no "meaningful damage" done by the conqueror.  I'm sorry this game is trending more and more to Battleships just do everything that Cruisers are supposed to do but with more health.  Face a 3 man conqueror division plus a few zaos or moskavas in there and tell me how long u last with continuous he spam.   

I'm surprised that you don't understand the term "meaningful damage".  What he's saying is that not all damage is equal in value.  Are you farming damage after the battle is largely decided?  Or are you doing damage at a critical juncture in the battle that helps decide the outcome?    Plenty of people can put up gaudy damage numbers in a loss.  It's not that uncommon if you're a decent player to do it.  There are fewer friendlies shooting at the enemy, so as long as you can stay alive, there's plenty of damage to farm and fewer team mates contending to farm it.  But it doesn't necessarily lead to wins.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Crucis said:

I'm surprised that you don't understand the term "meaningful damage".  What he's saying is that not all damage is equal in value.  Are you farming damage after the battle is largely decided?  Or are you doing damage at a critical juncture in the battle that helps decide the outcome?    Plenty of people can put up gaudy damage numbers in a loss.  It's not that uncommon if you're a decent player to do it.  There are fewer friendlies shooting at the enemy, so as long as you can stay alive, there's plenty of damage to farm and fewer team mates contending to farm it.  But it doesn't necessarily lead to wins.

 

 

 

I don't think that's what Taichunger meant. All BBs are equally capable of doing not-meaningful damage in that context.

 

I think he's referring to HE and fire damage being healable, thus not putting ships down (which is part of winning) like AP does.

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Just now, Skpstr said:

 

I don't think that's what Taichunger meant. All BBs are equally capable of doing not-meaningful damage in that context.

 

I think he's referring to HE and fire damage being healable, thus not putting ships down (which is part of winning) like AP does.

Well, if it's not what he meant, he could have fooled me.  He was talking about win rates and meaningful damage.  And whenever anyone is talking about those two things, it always ends up meaning doing damage when it matters, not just farming damage during garbage time after the battle's all but decided.

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On 10/4/2017 at 9:38 PM, Taichunger said:

.....

Just compare their all time solo win rates. This has been discussed incessantly and there are many posts. Damage is not translating into win rates, because it is not meaningful damage. 

I agree.....win rates are by far the most meaningful stat since the object of each battle is to win.....all other stat levels pale in comparison.

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27 minutes ago, Crucis said:

Well, if it's not what he meant, he could have fooled me.  He was talking about win rates and meaningful damage.  And whenever anyone is talking about those two things, it always ends up meaning doing damage when it matters, not just farming damage during garbage time after the battle's all but decided.

 

I think that would be true before the RN BBs, but the Conqueror, with its unique HE, stretches the definition.

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