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Seadog_Supreme

Fog of War Realism

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9 hours ago, Bril01 said:

And no shared vision, spotted ships are only visible on the min map (which would be like a plotting table).

you realize this would completely break the game?

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Well in real life the ship would shoot at the closest target with the biggest thread and in real life a fire would not take away the hp of a ship, mainly detonations and flooding would really down a ship

Killing the crew would also cripple a ship

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7 hours ago, AraAragami said:

Man I love how people forget that Japan and Germany had radar too.

 

Germany, sure but inferior naval radar.

 

Japan.

 

Radar?

Japan?

:Smile_teethhappy:

Meanwhile the United States handed Radar to its forces like passing candy out to the kids.

 

The sad reality of Japanese Naval Radar for their Destroyers.

 

Post-WWII interrogation of Capt Aoki, CO of Akagi at Midway.

Q. Did you have radar on the Akagi? 
A. No.

Q. Did any ships at MIDWAY have radar? 
A. Yamato, Mutsu and Nagato in the Grand Fleet may have had it. There was no ship at MIDWAY or carrier which had it.

Q. Do you know when they were first installed and first used? 
A. I don't know but when I went to the arsenal at KURE, I saw the grids on the Ise and Hyuga. It was in August 1942 after MIDWAY. I supposed that they must have been installed on better ships about then.

 

 

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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They started installing radar on Japanese ships in 1945. Read Hara's Japanese Destroyer Captain

Edited by Destroyer_Suzukaze

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7 hours ago, Ju87s said:

you realize this would completely break the game?

 

While I disagree that it would break anything, it would only force you to actually be able to see the target before you could get a target lock .  I was pointing out that showing ship names and health bars is far from the only unrealistic aspect of the game...

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17 hours ago, Seadog_Supreme said:

How about some more realistic "fog of war" battles? Real battles didn't have handy ship names with HP bars. I know, I know, it's a game. But I think it would be fun to play with some of the real-life limitations naval commanders had to deal it. They only guessed, what ship, by looking at them through binoculars. So what I would suggest, is no ship names, only the type, DD, CA, Etc., and no HP bar. That should make the angry sea interesting!

I would like to see some squalls randomly occur during a match. Kinda like a natural smoke you can hide yourself in. 

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17 hours ago, Seadog_Supreme said:

How about some more realistic "fog of war" battles? Real battles didn't have handy ship names with HP bars. I know, I know, it's a game. But I think it would be fun to play with some of the real-life limitations naval commanders had to deal it. They only guessed, what ship, by looking at them through binoculars. 

 

They weren't guessing, they studied the silhouettes and visual characteristics of ships of various nations before they commanded anything.

 

First of all, we have ships of varying nations on each team. That's not an issue real commanders had to deal with. Then we have commanders (players) that can't identify individual ships visually. That's not realistic either.

 

Basically, the names over the ships compensates for those two unrealistic issues to give you more realistic identification. It was extremely rare to misidentify a ship as enemy when it was friendly, under clear weather conditions.

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17 hours ago, Bril01 said:

And no shared vision, spotted ships are only visible on the min map (which would be like a plotting table).

 

You do realise that, given the ranges and conditions involved, most ships would be visible out past their concealment ranges, yes?

 

The game already makes it harder to see ships than it was IRL. 

 

Shared vision isn't really letting you see anything you wouldn't IRL, (except for LOS issues, but spotter planes with RL mechanics could compensate) but the lack of it hides a lot that wouldn't be hidden IRL.

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1 hour ago, Skpstr said:

 

They weren't guessing, they studied the silhouettes and visual characteristics of ships of various nations before they commanded anything.

 

First of all, we have ships of varying nations on each team. That's not an issue real commanders had to deal with. Then we have commanders (players) that can't identify individual ships visually. That's not realistic either.

 

Basically, the names over the ships compensates for those two unrealistic issues to give you more realistic identification. It was extremely rare to misidentify a ship as enemy when it was friendly, under clear weather conditions.

Yes, everyone had silhouettes of the ships. And we have pictures of the ships. IRL, ships were sometimes misidentified.

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3 hours ago, Bril01 said:

 

While I disagree that it would break anything, it would only force you to actually be able to see the target before you could get a target lock . 

It would render entire lines of ships useless.. Both British and American cruisers as well as any ship that relies heavily on taking cover while firing, and a huge nerf to all DDs that aren't Russian or IJN. It would makes DDs all the more useless as spotting won't do anything, dropping smoke for the team won't help anybody.

Edited by Ju87s

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59 minutes ago, Seadog_Supreme said:

Yes, everyone had silhouettes of the ships. And we have pictures of the ships. IRL, ships were sometimes misidentified.

 

The point with that is though, ok so you've positively identified that potential target as a Bayern. Whose side is it on?

 

Also, just like every major RL navy, we have pictures of ships. Unlike every major RL navy however, we have no way of enforcing recognition of them. You are allowed to command a warship even if you can't tell a DD from a CV.

 

Now, if you had the nations sorted into Axis and Allies, and the MM couldn't put both on one team, AND there was some kind of recognition test you had to pass before playing, then yeah, that would be pretty cool. I would certainly give it a go.

 

Basically, a lot of the UI elements here are intended to artidicially emulate standard knowledge among a group that, unlike real naval officers, HAVE no standards.

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17 minutes ago, Skpstr said:

 

The point with that is though, ok so you've positively identified that potential target as a Bayern. Whose side is it on?

 

Also, just like every major RL navy, we have pictures of ships. Unlike every major RL navy however, we have no way of enforcing recognition of them. You are allowed to command a warship even if you can't tell a DD from a CV.

 

Now, if you had the nations sorted into Axis and Allies, and the MM couldn't put both on one team, AND there was some kind of recognition test you had to pass before playing, then yeah, that would be pretty cool. I would certainly give it a go.

 

Basically, a lot of the UI elements here are intended to artidicially emulate standard knowledge among a group that, unlike real naval officers, HAVE no standards.

Again, no identity for red ships only.

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Just now, Seadog_Supreme said:

Again, no identity for red ships only.

 

Ok, missed that part. But again, you'll end up with a lot of players who can't be bothered to learn to identify individual ships. Which means you'll have even more players who figure a BB is a BB, and leave it at that.

 

I would rather have players spoon fed info, so there's a better chance of them fighting a New York differently than a Gneisenau. Makes for more interesting gameplay.

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Just now, Skpstr said:

 

Ok, missed that part. But again, you'll end up with a lot of players who can't be bothered to learn to identify individual ships. Which means you'll have even more players who figure a BB is a BB, and leave it at that.

 

I would rather have players spoon fed info, so there's a better chance of them fighting a New York differently than a Gneisenau. Makes for more interesting gameplay.

Any serious player can identify the class of ship.

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24 minutes ago, Seadog_Supreme said:

Any serious player can identify the class of ship.

 

Actually, disregard all I've said. I misread the OP, and was under the impression that you wanted the whole game to go that way.

 

For a voluntary game mode, I'd have no issue with it. I'd even go further, removing the HP bar from all targets past say, 10km, and not showing any damage numbers from hits.

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2 minutes ago, Skpstr said:

 

Actually, disregard all I've said. I misread the OP, and was under the impression that you wanted the whole game to go that way.

 

For a voluntary game mode, I'd have no issue with it. I'd even go further, removing the HP bar from all targets past say, 10km, and not showing any damage numbers from hits.

It seemed like a fun alternative battle mode. Sometimes I feel like the info on the reds is TMI. So much of real battles was the result of limited information.

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10 hours ago, Destroyer_Suzukaze said:

They started installing radar on Japanese ships in 1945. Read Hara's Japanese Destroyer Captain

 

IJN had radar installed as early as 1942 on capital ships. The problem isn't that they didn't have radar, the problem was they didn't have a system of integrating information from all sources to build an accurate, coherent, and easily readable tactical picture for the commanders in a CIC like the USN does. 

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20 minutes ago, NCC81701 said:

 

IJN had radar installed as early as 1942 on capital ships. The problem isn't that they didn't have radar, the problem was they didn't have a system of integrating information from all sources to build an accurate, coherent, and easily readable tactical picture for the commanders in a CIC like the USN does. 

They had the solution late 44 and were installing in 45, radar guided guns, but few systems. Industry was gutted by that point

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In World of Tanks clan wars, fog of battle is enabled.  What this means is that you can't see who the enemy players are or what tank thy are driving until they are affirmatively spotted.  You never know what comp the enemy team is bringing until you light them up.  It was an excellent change that I hope WG does in WOWS. 

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6 minutes ago, Pope_Shizzle said:

In World of Tanks clan wars, fog of battle is enabled.  What this means is that you can't see who the enemy players are or what tank thy are driving until they are affirmatively spotted.  You never know what comp the enemy team is bringing until you light them up.  It was an excellent change that I hope WG does in WOWS. 

I agree that was an excellent change

 

Sometimes the red team had one tank defending a territory. You couldn't tell

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2 hours ago, Ju87s said:

It would render entire lines of ships useless.. Both British and American cruisers as well as any ship that relies heavily on taking cover while firing, and a huge nerf to all DDs that aren't Russian or IJN. It would makes DDs all the more useless as spotting won't do anything, dropping smoke for the team won't help anybody.

 

The only impact it would have on RN CAs is when they are hiding in their smoke, otherwise their guns don't pack the sub orbital arc that USN does.  This would also give WG the chance to fix the major issue with USN CAs, their stupid firing arcs.   DDs would still be able to spot and they could use smoke as a defensive tool as it was traditional used.   It would still have value in providing a ship cover it their need to break contact, time to cap or just needs a breather to heal up.

 

But again I was only pointing out that health bars are the least realistic aspect of this game.  Hell I could have pointed out wizards on BBs and high tier CAs that magically repair the ships :)

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2 hours ago, Bril01 said:

 

The only impact it would have on RN CAs is when they are hiding in their smoke,

lol, oh only that. RN cruisers are balanced around using smoke offensively. Their 2 puff smoke screens would be rendered utterly useless. Same goes for most gunboat DDs. USN DDs so rarely use their guns anymore since the removal of OWSF and we're to nerf them even further by taking away their ability to fire on targets from smoke or from behind cover? And you're ignoring USN cruisers as well. They don't come equipped with smoke, but proper way to play them is to fire from island cover and take advantage of their firing arcs to hit targets being spotted by other teammates, otherwise they get deleted fast. The proposal to make targets only visible from a single ship's line of sight completely changes the major game mechanics and breaks entire lines and types of ships. But hey, if you want your matches to be all BBs and torpedo boats, push for the change.

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