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LHA3_BelleauWood

Co-Op & Bots

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I haven't played in a while, so I have a few questions.

1) Is it normal, when playing Co-Op, after being in the queue for only 3 seconds to get put on a team where my team-mates consists of mostly bots? The reason I ask is because it seems that is exactly what is happening. More often than not, with a server population in excess of 10,000, most of my team consists of bots where I get put into a line-up with mostly bots. Sometimes as many as 5 and 6 bots. I understand that after 30 seconds, when playing Co-Op, my wait time will be no longer than 30 seconds and the game will automatically fill a battle which at this point will probably consist of bots, but 3 seconds?

2) I play a Battleship. You know, they move slow. When I play with bots on my side, since I play Co_Op, which normally consists of bots, because I get put into a line-up at 3 seconds into the queue, which usually consists of more than half my team, they charge, engage and sink so many of the opposing bots from the enemy, I very seldom have time to engage. I find the battles that I play are not very entertaining. Should I expect this kind of play at all times?

 

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  1. The only time you'll get a 30 second wait is if everyone else got in the queue the same time as you.  As soon as one queued player hits 30 seconds, then whoever is in the queue that fits goes into the match.  So most times a co-op wait is more like 5-10 seconds.
  2. It is nothing like that in randoms.  But yes, in co-op, the bots charge each other and tend to die fast, which bites if you are in something slow, like a Wyoming.  It'd be easy to suggest you try randoms, though I know many people don't like it for reasons.  Might I suggest trying some of the Operations?  Those are a bit more scripted and the AI seems to be less berzerkergang.
Edited by kerensky914

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Answer to Question 1: Yes

Answer to question 2: Yes

Co-op is what it is, it get's less popular at high tier, and so lots of bots, and at certain times of the day, and so on and so on.

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5 minutes ago, kerensky914 said:
  1. The only time you'll get a 30 second wait is if everyone else got in the queue the same time as you.  As soon as one queued player hits 30 seconds, then whoever is in the queue that fits goes into the match.  So most times a co-op wait is more like 5-10 seconds.
  2. It is nothing like that in randoms.  But yes, in co-op, the bots charge each other and tend to die fast, which bites if you are in something slow, like a Wyoming.  It'd be easy to suggest you try randoms, though I know many people don't like it for reasons.  Might I suggest trying some of the Operations?  Those are a bit more scripted and the AI seems to be less berzerkergang.

So to enjoy the game at its fullest, I have to play Random?

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You can always play higher tier, and division with someone(s) if you have issues like at tier X.  The bots can get a little troublesome at times, but always fun to play when you're with someone else.

There are also operations of the week, also good fun, and it's still PVE basically. 

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5 minutes ago, LHA3_BelleauWood said:

So to enjoy the game at its fullest, I have to play Random?

Try the Operations.

But to be frank, yes, you should at least try random some. 

When I came here 2 years ago, I did not like PvP.  Still don't in most games.  At least in WoWS, you don't get much of the *really* unsportsmanlike stuff, like spawn camping, specific builds that are maximized to nuke other players, etc.  The pace of the game is slower.  Yeah, you still get some yahoos who love to shoot off their digital mouth, and that can be annoying.  But it seems to be considerably less of a problem here than in other games for some reason, and if someone is intent upon being a jackhole, you can just blacklist them and you don't see their chat anymore.

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Somedays, having a team full of bots is better than having live players (bot's don't hide behind the island in E7, and wait to ambush the person that never comes around the corner)

Operations are more fun, especially early in the weekly cycle.Too bad they are tier 6 only ATM. Would be nice to have hard mode versions for higher tier ships.

PvP will be one of 3 thing, You're the bug, you're the windshield, or you actually have a good time.

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5 minutes ago, kerensky914 said:

Try the Operations.

But to be frank, yes, you should at least try random some. 

When I came here 2 years ago, I did not like PvP.  Still don't in most games.  At least in WoWS, you don't get much of the *really* unsportsmanlike stuff, like spawn camping, specific builds that are maximized to nuke other players, etc.  The pace of the game is slower.  Yeah, you still get some yahoos who love to shoot off their digital mouth, and that can be annoying.  But it seems to be considerably less of a problem here than in other games for some reason, and if someone is intent upon being a jackhole, you can just blacklist them and you don't see their chat anymore.

Thank you. I played some random, and it didn't seem to be my cup of tea, so to say. As for players being "jackholes" that's kind of expected, one reason I enjoy Co-Op. Too bad they are allowed to continue. (Kind of a turn off, if you know what I mean)

As for Operations? I have no idea what that is.

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Fewer live Co-op players is probably more common late at night.  Might that have something to do with your complaint?

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12 minutes ago, kerensky914 said:

Try the Operations.

But to be frank, yes, you should at least try random some. 

When I came here 2 years ago, I did not like PvP.  Still don't in most games.  At least in WoWS, you don't get much of the *really* unsportsmanlike stuff, like spawn camping, specific builds that are maximized to nuke other players, etc.  The pace of the game is slower.  Yeah, you still get some yahoos who love to shoot off their digital mouth, and that can be annoying.  But it seems to be considerably less of a problem here than in other games for some reason, and if someone is intent upon being a jackhole, you can just blacklist them and you don't see their chat anymore.

 Jingle's latest vid had something on this.

 

Anyways, ops are premade encounters with specific objectives not found in the main game. For example, you might have to escort a convoy or raid a naval base instead of capping/killing.

 

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Scenarios

 

They're officially 'scenarios', but ops is easier to type.

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4 minutes ago, SgtBeltfed said:

Somedays, having a team full of bots is better than having live players (bot's don't hide behind the island in E7, and wait to ambush the person that never comes around the corner)

Operations are more fun, especially early in the weekly cycle.Too bad they are tier 6 only ATM. Would be nice to have hard mode versions for higher tier ships.

PvP will be one of 3 thing, You're the bug, you're the windshield, or you actually have a good time.

Sorry. I had to laugh. Bots run into islands, as do I. And yes, they hide. They even run. Very funny. They are good at placing torps, but suck at shooting. Though I am only in a tier 4 ship.

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2 minutes ago, desmo_2 said:

Fewer live Co-op players is probably more common late at night.  Might that have something to do with your complaint?

Not a complaint. Not at all. I enjoy the game, for the most part. (See my post) And if the population is over 10,000 late at night, maybe I should be playing earlier in the day.

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1 hour ago, LHA3_BelleauWood said:

I haven't played in a while, so I have a few questions.

1) Is it normal, when playing Co-Op, after being in the queue for only 3 seconds to get put on a team where my team-mates consists of mostly bots? The reason I ask is because it seems that is exactly what is happening. More often than not, with a server population in excess of 10,000, most of my team consists of bots where I get put into a line-up with mostly bots. Sometimes as many as 5 and 6 bots. I understand that after 30 seconds, when playing Co-Op, my wait time will be no longer than 30 seconds and the game will automatically fill a battle which at this point will probably consist of bots, but 3 seconds?

2) I play a Battleship. You know, they move slow. When I play with bots on my side, since I play Co_Op, which normally consists of bots, because I get put into a line-up at 3 seconds into the queue, which usually consists of more than half my team, they charge, engage and sink so many of the opposing bots from the enemy, I very seldom have time to engage. I find the battles that I play are not very entertaining. Should I expect this kind of play at all times?

 

I have been playing some "operations" the past couple of weeks for the first time. You can LOSE to those bots more often than in regular co-op battles.  I have lost in several operation battles since I began playing them but in regular co-op I think I have like a 94% win rate. They have a "harder" mode in operations but it is not in effect yet. Be interesting when they activate that. Those bots are actually more accurate IMO than many players in PvsP. Much more. 

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1 hour ago, LHA3_BelleauWood said:

I haven't played in a while, so I have a few questions.

1) Is it normal, when playing Co-Op, after being in the queue for only 3 seconds to get put on a team where my team-mates consists of mostly bots? The reason I ask is because it seems that is exactly what is happening. More often than not, with a server population in excess of 10,000, most of my team consists of bots where I get put into a line-up with mostly bots. Sometimes as many as 5 and 6 bots. I understand that after 30 seconds, when playing Co-Op, my wait time will be no longer than 30 seconds and the game will automatically fill a battle which at this point will probably consist of bots, but 3 seconds?

2) I play a Battleship. You know, they move slow. When I play with bots on my side, since I play Co_Op, which normally consists of bots, because I get put into a line-up at 3 seconds into the queue, which usually consists of more than half my team, they charge, engage and sink so many of the opposing bots from the enemy, I very seldom have time to engage. I find the battles that I play are not very entertaining. Should I expect this kind of play at all times?

 

It really depends on the time of day and day that you are playing and also depends on the tier you may be trying to play at that time.  If you are able to play during the peak hours when there are the most players on, chances are again, depending on the tier you will get humans on your team. Tendency is that when playing the highest tiers 9/10, and it is during the week, its iffy about getting more than a couple of humans on your team, then again there have been times that I have gotten full teams of humans at those tiers, more so on the weekends though.

Very seldom does my wait time go beyond around 22-23 seconds, again depending on the tier chosen, most times it is between 3 and 15 seconds.

What you might try being that you like BB's is to go with a couple of BOTS and support them, I've found that they tend to act a little differently and are not subject to ramming each other, unless of course it is a DD and it is way out in front of you, then there is not much hope, its usually on a suicide mission no matter what.

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"player" bots can be common at times.  Heck, a couple of days ago, I was the ONLY human player...  I was in North Carolina, so I didn't get left TOO far behind.  We still lost, because most of the green bots either suicided or got nuked.   I racked up a pretty good damage total, but I ran out of health before I ran out of bots to shoot.

  If you ever decide to try destroyers, I'd highly recommend getting used to playing Random matches.  Past tier 5, DD's are very hard to play in Co-op because the red bots always know where you are- spotted or not- and will go there, ALL of them.  They will then proceed to focus you until you are dead, dodging every torpedo you launch.  It's soul crushingly frustrating.  If you manage to avoid the initial bot rush, (because they spotted a teammate who looked more interesting - or who ran from them) the new gun bloom mechanic ensures your DD will be spotted, and shot to doll rags whenever you open fire.

  Up to tier 5 it isn't too bad- but you will see this on occasion.  After that, the gloves are off, and those bots HATE player DD's.  It teaches you the WRONG way to play DD's, esp the gun oriented,and cap fighting ones- like the US; German, and Russians. (I don't play IJN, so I can't say how they get treated.  However, their sneakier playstyle often keeps them away from the main bot swarm)  

  For example, Farragut plays night and day different between game modes.  It wants to wreck enemy DD's, contest caps, ambush BB's, and spot.  All of which require you to be close to the enemy, as do their high arcing shells.  Try that in Co-op, and you'll get focused and blown the hell up- quickly.  In Randoms, that playstyle rewards the player who pulls it off successfully.  In Co-op, you have to play the passive fraidy cat, run-for-your-life game...  NOT good training for random games, where that will usually get you a treasured spot on the bottom of the scoreboard, and lots of nasty salt directed at you in chat,lol.  It's a beastly little ship, but absolutely wrong for using in Co-op.  It took me some time to figure that out and meanwhile, Co-op made me hate Farragut.  It wasn't until I took it to randoms that I had that HALLELUIA!!! moment, and it clicked with me.

  Operations can be fun sometimes, but you HAVE to division up if you want to play the missions that aren't the "mission of the week."    So, it's the same battle each time.  How you do depends on what your teammates decide to do: play the scenario, or just sail around and blow up ships.   You can earn big rewards for completing the mission, and side goals, and it pays out better than Co-op.  The catch is, there are a lot more bots than players, and these ones are smarter than those in Co-op games- so the Operations can be difficult.

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On ‎10‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 6:14 PM, SpudZero said:

Answer to Question 1: Yes

Answer to question 2: Yes

Co-op is what it is, it get's less popular at high tier, and so lots of bots, and at certain times of the day, and so on and so on.

Actually I am a Co-op main and am up to T9 and I get a lot of all human games and with plenty of T10 players. Yes, I usually end up with teams that have at least some bots but there definitely is a pretty good size player population of T8-T10 that plays Co-op. T8 especially.

On ‎10‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 6:45 PM, desmo_2 said:

Fewer live Co-op players is probably more common late at night.  Might that have something to do with your complaint?

In my experience here on the East Coast of the USA late afternoon - early evening until say 1 or 2 AM is prime time for players during the week. 3-4PM people start to show up and the teams become for the most part all human until the next AM. Weekends it is pretty much all the time. I find the lowest population, again based on my time, to be that 5AM-10AM window. Even low tier then is a lot of mostly or all bot teams even with T4-T7 ships.

On ‎10‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 6:47 PM, LHA3_BelleauWood said:

Sorry. I had to laugh. Bots run into islands, as do I. And yes, they hide. They even run. Very funny. They are good at placing torps, but suck at shooting. Though I am only in a tier 4 ship.

Enjoy those inaccurate bots while you can because if you play Co-op the higher you go the more accurate they become. If you play BB you best learn early and learn fast how to angle to bounce shot/minimize damage and also how to properly use your repair and heal because you are going to get hit a LOT as you move up the tiers. IF you sail broadside to an enemy BB you will get obliterated higher up much faster than T3-say T4/T5.

T5 is where the bots start to shoot better and around T6/T7 they become pretty darn accurate. T8+ they never seem to miss. Even if you see them shoot in zoom view at max range (18-20km+) and INSTANTLY drop speed to full R and crank the rudder ( like you do to dodge torp plane drops) the shots will STILL land full dead on square on you. If you are at say 1/4 or 1/2 speed and you crank it up and swing wide or in it still hits you full square perfect. If a human was shooting at you and you did one of these things the shots would miss by a mile unless the person purposely expected it and compensated with the lead. Bots do it pretty much every salvo so it HAS to be programmed in that they hit at a very high %.

It is one of the ways they make high tier bots competitive and trust me they are. They always have the right shot loaded and they always hit. At least if you play BB, you can dodge some in CL and DD but even that they hit a LOT. Those mid to high tier bots are far, FAR, more accurate than human players. They also start frigging fires like no ones business. Game starts and a DD hits you with ONE shell, the 1st hit of the game, and = fire. Get set on fire multiple times and get in the clear to repair an the second the fire is out and you re-engage the 1st shell to hit you and = fire. Drives me bonkers. :Smile_amazed: 

 

Edited by AdmiralThunder
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On ‎10‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 6:40 PM, SgtBeltfed said:

PvP will be one of 3 thing, You're the bug, you're the windshield, or you actually have a good time.

That is the best description of PvP +1  to your post/reply:Smile_medal:

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so the bots get better at higher tiers.. ...yah they're goodish with torps, but with guns they seem to refrain from firing in my experience.... ....imo the operations are tough, but with teamwork they can be beat.....i should play them more...

On 10/2/2017 at 3:44 PM, LHA3_BelleauWood said:

Thank you. I played some random, and it didn't seem to be my cup of tea, so to say. As for players being "jackholes" that's kind of expected, one reason I enjoy Co-Op. Too bad they are allowed to continue. (Kind of a turn off, if you know what I mean)

As for Operations? I have no idea what that is.

to answer your question:  click on "coop" mission type and you'll see that there's Operations to choose from as another battle type.

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On ‎10‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 8:42 PM, Fletcher7_1944 said:

 

  For example, Farragut plays night and day different between game modes.  It wants to wreck enemy DD's, contest caps, ambush BB's, and spot.  All of which require you to be close to the enemy, as do their high arcing shells.  Try that in Co-op, and you'll get focused and blown the hell up- quickly.  In Randoms, that playstyle rewards the player who pulls it off successfully.  In Co-op, you have to play the passive fraidy cat, run-for-your-life game...  NOT good training for random games, where that will usually get you a treasured spot on the bottom of the scoreboard, and lots of nasty salt directed at you in chat,lol.  It's a beastly little ship, but absolutely wrong for using in Co-op.  It took me some time to figure that out and meanwhile, Co-op made me hate Farragut.  It wasn't until I took it to randoms that I had that HALLELUIA!!! moment, and it clicked with me.

  Operations can be fun sometimes, but you HAVE to division up if you want to play the missions that aren't the "mission of the week."    So, it's the same battle each time.  How you do depends on what your teammates decide to do: play the scenario, or just sail around and blow up ships.   You can earn big rewards for completing the mission, and side goals, and it pays out better than Co-op.  The catch is, there are a lot more bots than players, and these ones are smarter than those in Co-op games- so the Operations can be difficult.

I actually love playing US DDs in coop, though one does have to play them differently.

How I use the Farragut, Sims, and Mahan in coop is to move to a good position on the map where I know that the enemy will come my way.  I have to be extra careful if there are friendly bots because I don't want to get torped by accident.  I also try to position myself where I'll be able to get spotting from team mates.  Then what I do is when the enemy is gets into my gun range, I pop smoke and start the guns a-blazing.  Because I'm smoked up, my DD gets ignored and I can rack up lots of damage with guns and torpedoes, because bots aren't programmed to handle smoke the way a human player would.

 

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I wish that the bots were a little smarter in the mid-tiers.  Not ridiculously so, but a little bit.  I wish that they wouldn't just charge straight at your team, particularly when you have friendly bots because then it becomes pure luck whether your bots or the enemy bots gets trashed.  if you're lucky, they'll ram each other.

Something else, I wish that there would be a minimum number of live players required to form a team.  It really stinks when you're the only live player, particularly when you're in a CV.  I'd rather wait for a while longer, perhaps up to a minute, if it meant getting at least a minimum of 3-4 live players for a coop team.  Also, I think that I'd rather have a partial team of only 4 live players with no friendly bots than a full team with friendly bots.  And then base the size of the opposing team on the number of live players.

Also, I think that coop might be a little more interesting if there were more bot ships on the bot team than on the player team.  Perhaps something like 1.5 bot ships for every live player.  So if you had a team of 7 live players, you might have to face 10 or 11 bot ships.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Crucis said:

I wish that the bots were a little smarter in the mid-tiers.  Not ridiculously so, but a little bit.  I wish that they wouldn't just charge straight at your team, particularly when you have friendly bots because then it becomes pure luck whether your bots or the enemy bots gets trashed.  if you're lucky, they'll ram each other.

Something else, I wish that there would be a minimum number of live players required to form a team.  It really stinks when you're the only live player, particularly when you're in a CV.  I'd rather wait for a while longer, perhaps up to a minute, if it meant getting at least a minimum of 3-4 live players for a coop team.  Also, I think that I'd rather have a partial team of only 4 live players with no friendly bots than a full team with friendly bots.  And then base the size of the opposing team on the number of live players.

Also, I think that coop might be a little more interesting if there were more bot ships on the bot team than on the player team.  Perhaps something like 1.5 bot ships for every live player.  So if you had a team of 7 live players, you might have to face 10 or 11 bot ships.

Adding more ships to the bot team would be a great way of making Coop more fun and rewarding. It can be frustrating in a slow ship and on good team to have all of the red bots destroyed before you get more than one or two shots off. I have seen really good destroyer players working together to absolutely annihilate the bots before a good portion of the team can even get into the action. Adding a enemy bot cv when the humans lack one, would be a real challenge and great fun IMHO. With more enemy bots to farm, the rewards would be significantly better.  

I tend to agree that you really need a minimum number of human players to form a team. However I love when no one is in queue because that is when I take out a CV and go farm bots. Keeping friendly bots alive is a challenge but it is really lots of fun. Winning is definitely not assured either so it makes for more exciting gameplay. Besides if you go full potato, no witnesses!

I really like the AI that is in Operations. The bots play smarter and don't always do a suicide charge at superior forces. I am assuming it is AI, not just scripting but if it is AI, wish they would incorporate it into PvE play. Would definitely make it more challenging.  

One other thing came to mind after I posted this. It would be nice if friendly bots responded to the "F" commands like "take A cap" or "defend that target" or come to help when you call for it. I know that it could lead to lots of abuse by players who just want to grief others so maybe the matchmaker could randomly assign a fleet "admiral" who is a human of course, and in a capital ship and they would respond to the admiral's orders. Hope that makes sense, maybe someone smarter than me could do a better job of fleshing the idea out.

Edited by Taylor3006
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14 hours ago, Taylor3006 said:

Adding more ships to the bot team would be a great way of making Coop more fun and rewarding. It can be frustrating in a slow ship and on good team to have all of the red bots destroyed before you get more than one or two shots off. I have seen really good destroyer players working together to absolutely annihilate the bots before a good portion of the team can even get into the action. Adding a enemy bot cv when the humans lack one, would be a real challenge and great fun IMHO. With more enemy bots to farm, the rewards would be significantly better.  

I tend to agree that you really need a minimum number of human players to form a team. However I love when no one is in queue because that is when I take out a CV and go farm bots. Keeping friendly bots alive is a challenge but it is really lots of fun. Winning is definitely not assured either so it makes for more exciting gameplay. Besides if you go full potato, no witnesses!

I really like the AI that is in Operations. The bots play smarter and don't always do a suicide charge at superior forces. I am assuming it is AI, not just scripting but if it is AI, wish they would incorporate it into PvE play. Would definitely make it more challenging.  

One other thing came to mind after I posted this. It would be nice if friendly bots responded to the "F" commands like "take A cap" or "defend that target" or come to help when you call for it. I know that it could lead to lots of abuse by players who just want to grief others so maybe the matchmaker could randomly assign a fleet "admiral" who is a human of course, and in a capital ship and they would respond to the admiral's orders. Hope that makes sense, maybe someone smarter than me could do a better job of fleshing the idea out.

By paragraphs:

1. Yeah, I've also noticed that if you're in a slow ship, many coop battles can be over before you get a chance to get many shots in.  It really stinks.

2. When I'm on a team that has 3-4 friendly bots, I often suggest to the live team mates to assist the friendly bots so that they don't die so easily or in vain.  It's really not that difficult.  If all your team's bots are heading into B cap, follow them at a discrete distance and try to finish off the wounded enemies or soften up the enemy bots so that your bots can kill them easier.  Doing this makes coop battles with a fair number of friendly bots a LOT easier.  But if all the live players go to a different cap than the friendly bots, and the enemy bots kill all of the friendly bots with few or no losses of their own, your chances of victory go way down, unless you're actually pretty good.

3. I agree about the bot AI in operations.  I don't necessarily "need" to have coop bots be super smart.  I'd be quite happy if they were total idiots, though. It would be nice if they never ran into islands.  It'd be great if they didn't constantly seem to look to ram.  I honestly find it boring that enemy bots seem to constantly use the exact same battle play, i.e. charge directly at the enemy.  I wish that they'd show just a little more variety than that.  

4. Friendly bots responding to Fn key comments.  It would be nice, but as you say, if they're responding to any live player's Fn key commands, you could get some troll who doesn't give a fig about winning.  And while having a single player on the team being able to command the bots sounds like a decent idea, who's to say that this player wouldn't be the troll?

 

 

Something else that I'd like to see in coop is an end to this perfect mirroring of the player team.  Oh, I have no problem with mirroring the ships by type and tier.  What I'd like to see is for coop MM to randomly select a random ship that matches the same type and tier of each player ship.  For example, if I brought a tier 6 Arizona to a coop battle, I wish that coop MM would pick some other random tier 6 battleship to oppose my Arizona, rather than blindly mirror my Zona with another Zona.  I think that it would create a little more variety in coop battles if every battle wasn't between perfectly mirrored teams.

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24 minutes ago, Crucis said:

Something else that I'd like to see in coop is an end to this perfect mirroring of the player team.  Oh, I have no problem with mirroring the ships by type and tier.  What I'd like to see is for coop MM to randomly select a random ship that matches the same type and tier of each player ship.  For example, if I brought a tier 6 Arizona to a coop battle, I wish that coop MM would pick some other random tier 6 battleship to oppose my Arizona, rather than blindly mirror my Zona with another Zona.  I think that it would create a little more variety in coop battles if every battle wasn't between perfectly mirrored teams.

This has been mentioned before and deserves mentioning over and over again. It is a great idea and would make the game much more interesting. Can't believe I forgotten it, thanks for bringing it up Crucis, this is such an easy thing to do and would definitely go a long way to bring a bit of excitement into PvE.

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