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OldFrog75

Newcomer observation?

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I've played 200 Co-op and fewer than 50 Random battles - mostly in Tier I but some Tier II as well.   From what I've seen so far in the Random battles, this game punishes aggression and rewards caution.  Seems like players who lead an early charge to the front die without contributing much while players who hang back, hideout, and wait for the enemy to reveal themselves live longer and score better.

 

Is this true for all Tiers or just the lower, beginning tiers?

Edited by OldFrog75
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Not exactly.

 

Playing passive only gets you so far. As does aggressive play. You need to find a balance between being aggressive, and being passive.

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@OldFrog75  Welcome to the game and I hope you enjoy yourself.

 

To your observation, tier I / tier II is not a good representation of "normal" games in higher tiers. There are some mechanics and ship types that are not represented in the first two tiers. The single best advice I can give is not to think of your gameplay as aggressive/passive versus situationally aware. Overall, the game moves at a slower pace allowing for the player to exploit their situational awareness. Things to think about:

 

Where is my ship positioned? (Keep tabs on the minimap)

How am I angled to the enemy? (Are you showing broadside)

What is the best enemy to target? (Low health / critical ship like a DD)

What is my next move? (Plan ahead)

 

Have fun!

 

Edit: Forgot to mention.... the Co-Op bots are NOTHING like humans.

Edited by _Big_Lou_

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1 minute ago, Doomlock said:

Not exactly.

 

Playing passive only gets you so far. As does aggressive play. You need to find a balance between being aggressive, and being passive.

But do things open up as you move up the tiers, and if so, when?

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10 minutes ago, OldFrog75 said:

I've played 200 Co-op and 50 Random battles - mostly in Tier I but some Tier II as well.   From what I've seen so far in the Random battles, this game punishes aggression and rewards caution.  Seems like players who lead an early charge to the front die without contributing much while players who hang back, hideout, and wait for the enemy to reveal themselves live longer and score better.

 

Is this true for all Tiers or just the lower, beginning tiers?

You assessment is pretty much spot on.  It actually gets worse as you move up the tiers.  The issue is you don't want to be the first thing the enemy sees then you get focus fired to death mostly because you have no support and you are the only bait in town.  You pretty much have to be patient and play the waiting game, does it get boring to sit and wait, yes it does but that is the meta that exists in all tiers now, the team dictates your movements whether good or bad.

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Just now, OldFrog75 said:

But do things open up as you move up the tiers, and if so, when?

Low tiers are sort of a mixed brawl of close range engagements. Once you start moving up, the maps get bigger and being passive starts getting harder and more detrimental to your team.

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17 minutes ago, OldFrog75 said:

I've played 200 Co-op and 50 Random battles - mostly in Tier I but some Tier II as well.   From what I've seen so far in the Random battles, this game punishes aggression and rewards caution.  Seems like players who lead an early charge to the front die without contributing much while players who hang back, hideout, and wait for the enemy to reveal themselves live longer and score better.

 

Is this true for all Tiers or just the lower, beginning tiers?

 

It's all about application of force.  Essentially what you are looking to do is to find situations where you have 3 or 4 friendly ships engaging 1 or 2 red ships.  If you can do that, the red ships will be outgunned and normally easily destroyed. 

Now, if you are a friendly ship and all the other friendly ships are charging at the red ships, then you probably are going to have equal force against equal force so a bit of blind chance and the application of better gunnery skills will normally decide the contest. 

However lets say only one or two friendly ships charge the enemy.  Those ships have now created a situation where they are taking on the entire enemy fleet which means they will quickly be deleted. 

So, you have to watch what the ships around you are doing.  If they are moving forward then you can probably safely go with them.  If they are hanging back, all that charging is going to accomplish for you is a quick death. 

One thing you might notice is low tier matches in the standard game format, is that some players will generally first move to defend your own base before trying to move on the enemy base.  In standard battle mode, where the loss of your base loses you the game, taking care of your base can be a good idea so while it may look as if these players are behaving passively, they may well simply be taking care of first things first by making sure they can be close enough to the base to react to threats to it.  

Hope that's helpful. 

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@OldFrog75

 

One other thought about starting out... The forums are filled with different opinions about tactics, ship preferences, builds, and skills. Take everyone's opinions in, but make sure you process their advice based on their performance in the game. There is nothing more misleading than (example) destroyer tactics advice from somebody who is very poor at driving a destroyer.

 

Happy hunting!

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15 minutes ago, Doomlock said:

Low tiers are sort of a mixed brawl of close range engagements. Once you start moving up, the maps get bigger and being passive starts getting harder and more detrimental to your team.

In WoT most experienced players have studied all the maps and most tank classes have spots or areas where the general consensus is to race off to and then settle in (at least temporarily) for battle.  Those that hang back near the base are frequently accused of "Camping" and not contributing to the fight.  WoWS is very different (at least what I've seen in Tiers I/II) and is going to take some getting used to.

Edited by OldFrog75

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33 minutes ago, Doomlock said:

Low tiers are sort of a mixed brawl of close range engagements. Once you start moving up, the maps get bigger and being passive starts getting harder and more detrimental to your team.

yet more people do it than I think what he is experiencing....

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It's about controlled aggression. Knowing when to push and when to hold back is important to put yourself in the position to really do damage/get kills without getting focused down.

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When you start out, you might get slightly higher damage totals by being overtly passive.  However, you'll find that your win rate is subpar doing so, too (mine was a few ticks below 50% doing that).

This game is a balance between knowing when to shift from a neutral position to pushing forward/being an aggressor.  The right push at the right time will help your team win games and will push your damage numbers much higher.  Note that neutral is not sitting in the back, out of range of most targets, or playing the edges of the map for extended periods.  It's also not an early push on your own that gets you focused and/or quickly deleted...

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With all the factors in game (different types of ships, different tiers (MM), different nations, different players (skill), different maps, different objectives etc. etc.), it isn't really as simple as rushing forward or staying back.

 

You stated to go to the front is 'leading the charge' and hanging back is hiding out - so it seems you may already believe the way a person/team should play(?) - it is not that simple.

 

Take BBs: Many say they should be at the front, support in the middle or be at the back! Which one is it? :Smile_amazed::Smile_teethhappy: The fact is a BB (and any other ship type for that matter), has different strengths and weaknesses, you have to learn what they are and play the ship to its strength. I am not one to teach but there are many on the forum and YouTube that have great experience and can give good advice. Take what you can from them and learn (if points of view differ, make your own judgement...or give both theories a try lol).

 

Good sailing - wishing you the best of luck. :Smile_honoring:

 

Edited by _WaveRider_

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1 minute ago, _WaveRider_ said:

With all the factors in game (different types of ships, different tiers (MM), different nations, different players (skill), different maps, different objectives etc. etc.), it isn't really as simple as rushing forward or staying back.

 

You stated to go to the front is 'leading the charge' and hanging back is hiding out - so it seems you may already believe the way a person/team should play(?) - it is not that simple.

 

Take BBs: Many say they should be at the front, support in the middle or be at the back! :Smile_amazed::Smile_teethhappy: The fact is a BB (and any other ship type for that matter), has different strengths and weaknesses, you have to learn what they are. I am not one to teach but there are many on the forum and YouTube that have great experience and can give good advice. Take what you can from them and learn (if points of view differ, make your own judgement...or give both theories a try lol).

 

Good sailing - wishing you the best of luck. :Smile_honoring:

 

In Tier I there is only one class of ship and it appears the standard strategy in Tier I is to play that class of ship very "passively".  I asked if things change as one moves up the tiers or if it's generally accepted that hanging back is a more productive strategy than charging forth like the Light Brigade guns blazing and Torps swimming regardless of tier. 

 

Or asked another way, are there Tiers/Ships where as soon as the clock hits "0" it's, "damn the Torpedoes, full speed ahead..."

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The trick is to master controlled aggression, measured aggression. The most difficult thing to learn in WoWS is when to push and when not to. Unfortunately I can't really tell you when that is, it depends on so many factors ... But, push too early and you die a useless death, push too late and the match is already decided without you. Push at the right time and in the right location and you can, from time to time, singlehandedly swing a match. Do that once every 100 matches and your average winrate is 1% higher than that of someone who doesn't.

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4 hours ago, OldFrog75 said:

I've played 200 Co-op and 50 Random battles - mostly in Tier I but some Tier II as well.   From what I've seen so far in the Random battles, this game punishes aggression and rewards caution.  Seems like players who lead an early charge to the front die without contributing much while players who hang back, hideout, and wait for the enemy to reveal themselves live longer and score better.

 

Is this true for all Tiers or just the lower, beginning tiers?

 

This game favors deliberate, correctly planned and correctly timed action whether it be a pushing into a cap or a delaying your opponent form taking a cap. Push too soon and you'd get punished by focus fire, push too late and you don't have enough time to accumulate cap points and lose. Knowing exactly what you should be doing and when you should do it varies from game to game so it's something that is extremely difficult to teach. This knowledge is typically acquired through playing and experimenting with what work and what doesn't and learning to recognize typical patterns and behavior of the player base. 

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43 minutes ago, NCC81701 said:

 

This game favors deliberate, correctly planned and correctly timed action whether it be a pushing into a cap or a delaying your opponent form taking a cap. Push too soon and you'd get punished by focus fire, push too late and you don't have enough time to accumulate cap points and lose. Knowing exactly what you should be doing and when you should do it varies from game to game so it's something that is extremely difficult to teach. This knowledge is typically acquired through playing and experimenting with what work and what doesn't and learning to recognize typical patterns and behavior of the player base. 

This game seems impossible.  So far MM almost never puts me on winning teams.  My Random battle WR is already only 41% even in Tier I where only beginners should be playing and the odds of winning for both teams comprised of unskilled players should be around 50%. 

Edited by OldFrog75

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It started out the same way for me.  Your sample size is not big enough to average to 50% in all instances and since you just started playing, you are dragging that percentage down somewhat until you get more experience.  It takes an investment of time (for me about 1,000 games) before you will start developing some of the instincts for success (as well as progressing to higher tier meta).

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Just now, delp5117 said:

It started out the same way for me.  Your sample size is not big enough to average to 50% in all instances and since you just started playing, you are dragging that percentage down somewhat until you get more experience.  It takes an investment of time (for me about 1,000 games) before you will start developing some of the instincts for success (as well as progressing to higher tier meta).

I see no point in progressing to higher tiers until I can win consistently in the lower ones.

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I don't have that many low tier games in tanks or ships.  Things are too schizoid.  Play becomes more organized at Tiers III and IV, in my opinion.  The place you want to pause for a while is at Tier IV, because Tier V matchmaking is the point were it is no longer protected for newer players (you'll start seeing low tier in a higher percentage of your games).

If I stayed at Tier II for a long time, I probably would have quit the game.

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10 minutes ago, delp5117 said:

I don't have that many low tier games in tanks or ships.  Things are too schizoid.  Play becomes more organized at Tiers III and IV, in my opinion.  The place you want to pause for a while is at Tier IV, because Tier V matchmaking is the point were it is no longer protected for newer players (you'll start seeing low tier in a higher percentage of your games).

If I stayed at Tier II for a long time, I probably would have quit the game.

Thanks for the advice and I agree Tier IV is probably a good place to hang for a while and digest what's going on but I can't imagine doing well in Tier IV if I can't carry my weight in Tiers I-III.

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One final thing - I picked two classes and have stuck with them: BB's and cruisers.  This helps with not only familiarity with the ships themselves, but also will help you get some 10+ skill point captains quicker, which function a lot better than lower skilled ones.

With BB's, you won't get one-salvoed very often (except to the occasional DD or CV) and the game moves a bit slower.  Armor angling, map positioning, aiming and management of your damage control resources are important to learn.

For cruisers, you'll have more mobility, but can be deleted quickly by BB's if you show too much broadside or sail in straight lines.  Add ammo choice (when to use AP vs. HE), changes in course/speed. and detection ranges (when to shoot and when to "go dark" and disappear so you can re-position) to the list of stuff to learn above.

I am almost 3K battles in and am finally feeling like I might try my DD's in randoms again soon.  I want to support my team the best I can and I think they are higher skill floor ships.  CV's are a whole 'nother thing and the interface for them will change in some point in the future, so I am holding out.

The WoWs wiki also has a lot of helpful information in addition to the forum.  I watch streamers from time to time, too.

Hang in there!

 

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53 minutes ago, OldFrog75 said:

I see no point in progressing to higher tiers until I can win consistently in the lower ones.

 

Not a bad idea but don't recommend getting suck at the t1/2 range. Get up to t3 and 4 where you that's were the game really starts as the ships start to become more capable and you see all ship types.

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8 hours ago, OldFrog75 said:

In Tier I there is only one class of ship and it appears the standard strategy in Tier I is to play that class of ship very "passively".  I asked if things change as one moves up the tiers or if it's generally accepted that hanging back is a more productive strategy than charging forth like the Light Brigade guns blazing and Torps swimming regardless of tier. 

 

Or asked another way, are there Tiers/Ships where as soon as the clock hits "0" it's, "damn the Torpedoes, full speed ahead..."

Sorry, didn't explain myself very well. Tiers 1-3 are kinda hectic as most players are learning.

At tier 4 you start seeing more people get the hang of the nations ship they have chosen (or at least I did).

 

But I stand by what I stated earlier, that there is no simple 'straight forward' or 'hanging back' solution. It's about learning about your ship and playing to its strengths.

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18 hours ago, _Big_Lou_ said:

@OldFrog75

 

One other thought about starting out... The forums are filled with different opinions about tactics, ship preferences, builds, and skills. Take everyone's opinions in, but make sure you process their advice based on their performance in the game. There is nothing more misleading than (example) destroyer tactics advice from somebody who is very poor at driving a destroyer.

 

Happy hunting!

 

This is so true. Lots of ways to play and you can find proponents of lots of styles. 

 

16 hours ago, Lert said:

The trick is to master controlled aggression, measured aggression. The most difficult thing to learn in WoWS is when to push and when not to. Unfortunately I can't really tell you when that is, it depends on so many factors ... But, push too early and you die a useless death, push too late and the match is already decided without you. Push at the right time and in the right location and you can, from time to time, singlehandedly swing a match. Do that once every 100 matches and your average winrate is 1% higher than that of someone who doesn't.

 

The biggest jump I found from co-op to PvP was finding the balance between being too aggressive and not aggressive enough. Co-op rewards being aggressive and PvP is quick to punish you as most players are way better shots than the bots. I still haven't got the balance down yet, so I play mostly co-op. PvE is less stress for me as well.

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