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Ramsalot

Angling and bow armor question

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I had a rather interesting experience with bow tanking today, first on Moskva then on Nelson. Today I managed to take quite a punishment from Montana while taking fire bow on in Moskva in medium to close range.  No citadels came through.  At the same time North Carolina was able to citadel my Nelson in similar ranges.  Now, Moskva is quite famous for having strong ability to tank bow on, while Nelson not so much.  But when I view those ships in Armor Layout mode, I get the feeling that Nelson seemingly has thicker armor all around for the purposes of bow tanking.  So my question is why Moskva seems to be tanking better while bow on when compared to Nelson?

Edited by Veksha

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Lots of factors here to add, including size and type of shell, rate of fire, distance fired, shell arc, ship doing the firing. etc. Also, it probably depends on where the shells are actually landing. For instance, when facing a bow-on opponent I try to elevate my rounds a bit so as to hit the superstructure versus the bow per se. You might consider setting up up a training room scenario and firing at the two ships from the same distance and orientation with the same ship and shell type to see if there is a significant difference.

Edited by Snargfargle

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I seem to recall reading somewhere (and I may be recalling incorrectly) that Moskva is a good bow-tanker mostly due to her extremely thick center deck armor.  She'll take plunging hits through the weaker deck armor over her extremities, but nothing to her citadel.  

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Another thing to keep in mind is that both the Moskva and Nelson have 25 mm belt armor.  That means that the overmatch mechanic is in play.  If the shell diameter is greater than 14.3 times the armor it impacts, the shell will penetrate and ignore ricochets.  For the both the Moskva and Nelson, any shell with a diameter greater than 357 mm will penetrate the bow armor regardless of how you are angled with respect to the firing ship.  The trick to tanking with the Moskva is to bait the shots into your citadel armor while angled enough to bounce while not allowing for citadels through the bow.

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19 minutes ago, DerKrampus said:

I seem to recall reading somewhere (and I may be recalling incorrectly) that Moskva is a good bow-tanker mostly due to her extremely thick center deck armor.  She'll take plunging hits through the weaker deck armor over her extremities, but nothing to her citadel.  

Yeah that’s what I thought, except Nelson citadel roof armor is thicker then Moskva’s, so it should provide better protection in theory.  Moskva does present less of a target when it comes to how wide the citadel area is for incoming fire.

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1 hour ago, Veksha said:

I had a rather interesting experience with bow tanking today, first on Moskva then on Nelson. Today I managed to take quite a punishment from Montana while taking fire bow on in Moskva in medium to close range.  No citadels came through.  At the same time North Carolina was able to citadel my Nelson in similar ranges.  Now, Moskva is quite famous for having strong ability to tank bow on, while Nelson not so much.  But when I view those ships in Armor Layout mode, I get the feeling that Nelson seemingly has thicker armor all around for the purposes of bow tanking.  So my question is why Moskva seems to be tanking better while bow on when compared to Nelson?

The Moskva's reputation as a bow tanker is unfounded and largely based in myth and conformation bias.  The Moskva has a 25mm bow, which will be overmatched by any BB Tier 8 and above.  Given proper aim and good dispersion it is more than possible to citadel a Moskva through the bow.  I have no clue where the misconception originated from that the Moskva can bow tank as it can easily be dispelled by simply looking at the in game armor viewer, but I can explain some of the conformation bias.

The Moskva has 50mm deck and upper belt armor, which is capable of auto bouncing any AP shell in the game.  When firing at a bow on Moskva, some of the shells may go high and hit the deck, or even scrape along the sides and bounce off the belt.  It is possible to fire at an angled Moskva and only get bounces and over pens if your aim is off or dispersion trolls you just so.  

 

1 hour ago, Veksha said:

So my question is why Moskva seems to be tanking better while bow on when compared to Nelson?

That really depends.  In my experience playing the Moskva, I find it is incredibly easy to bait people into shooting and bouncing off the upper belt by angling ever so slightly.  Not many people seem to be aware of how overmatch match mechanics work, and even less seem to be aware of the details of the Moskva's armor scheme.  I once had a Yamato bounce three full volleys off my belt armor by angling around 30 degrees.  If this Yamato had realized what was going on, he would have aimed for my bow and done massive damage.  

 

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Both ships have a 25mm bow.  The belt armor is sufficient to bounce on both ships.  The difference is in the size of the bow.  If a 15" or larger shell even touches the 25mm bow, it will pen.  It could hit at 3 degree angle and still pen even though in theory the effective thickness is 477mm.  Looking at the two ships, it is quite easy to tell that the bow on the Nelson is quite large.  It's really the size difference and who is shooting.  The Moskva is fairly fast and can turn decently, the Nelson not so much.  It is much easier to land a shell on the bow where as with the Moskva they can wiggle a little bit and bounce the shells off their belt.  The Moskva is thinner and so even if a shell goes through the bow, there is a chance that it might go straight out and just miss the citadel whereas with the Nelson, that's less likely.

 

So neither is a better bow tanker.  The Moskva is just more apt at handling shells coming toward the bow.

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