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megadeux

The role of IJN destroyers.

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I've been watching the pan asian destroyer line reviews and noticed that they have excellent torpedoes, best in class torpedo detect (excluding the soviets) US gun systems, and radar. Looking at the stats they appear to be torpedo boats with US guns. I was looking at these and wondering, what's the point of getting any IJN DD at all now? They cannot play the objective, they cannot perform their torpedo role effectively, and they cannot fight DDs or apparently perform in clan battles. Is there something I'm missing here or should I ditch my beloved kagero as soon as the pan asian DDs come out? 

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6 minutes ago, megadeux said:

I was looking at these and wondering, what's the point of getting any IJN DD at all now? They cannot play the objective, they cannot perform their torpedo role effectively, and they cannot fight DDs or apparently perform in clan battles.

Since when?

Yes, they have been beaten with the nerf bat and many are pathetic shadows of their former selves, but they sure aren't useless.

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I found that trying to capture the objective is extraorinarily difficult for me as an IJN DD as I can't fight other DDs who cap, and the other DD lines appear to have better torp systems.

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not CAs actually, as they are supposed to work against them, but CLs and DDs are too maneuverable anyway to get hit by IJN torps, especially from their detect ranges.

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1 hour ago, megadeux said:

I found that trying to capture the objective is extraorinarily difficult for me as an IJN DD as I can't fight other DDs who cap, and the other DD lines appear to have better torp systems.

The worst thing about IJN destroyers is radar....

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3 hours ago, megadeux said:

I found that trying to capture the objective is extraorinarily difficult for me as an IJN DD as I can't fight other DDs who cap, and the other DD lines appear to have better torp systems.

You have to play it to the strength of the IJN DD you are in.  I've posted a lot on this topic before, I'm not going to rehash it.

My best suggestion is to find a competitive clan and join one of their training programs.  There are a lot of good clans with amazing DD players that teach the way to guys looking to learn.

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I think the Pan-Asian DD's are an indirect counter to the BB heavy meta currently dominant in the game.

IJN DD's are losing nothing; they will play exactly the same.

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15 hours ago, ExploratorOne said:

If the Pan-Asian DD's are equipped with the deep running torpedoes, they will be useless against DD's and CA/CL's.

They still (mostly) have pretty good guns. After all, many of them are US DDs. And DW torps will hit all cruisers in its current test configuration. 

As for capping. Don't cap unless you are sure you have the best concealment or the cap is bigger than your detection circle. Run when you know the cap is being contested, especially when there's red cruisers near by.

As the most powerful torpedo platform (thought not most effective), the longer you live and can launch torps at the red ships, the more you will contribute to the win.

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17 hours ago, desmo_2 said:

but they sure aren't useless.

I don't think the  OP is claiming they are useless but the point is, are there better alternatives? Do other lines do everything the IJN is supposed be the best at, AND still bring other advantages to the mix? (Guns, radar, hydro, speed...)

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8 hours ago, Sabot_100 said:

I don't think the  OP is claiming they are useless but the point is, are there better alternatives? Do other lines do everything the IJN is supposed be the best at, AND still bring other advantages to the mix? (Guns, radar, hydro, speed...)

This is what I meant.

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I played IJN DDs up to T10 but after getting a bit bored with the play style where you just desperately try to stay alive until your team gets rid of all the radar cruisers, I started down the USN DD line.  What a difference.  Once you hit T7 you get decent torps (of course, not as fast or hard hitting as IJN torps) great guns, better tanking, better smoke and the ability to actually challenge other DDs and even some of the weaker cruisers directly.  The IJN DDs can still be ok, and I can have the occasional good game but with USN DDs, I don't know why you'd pick IJN over them in competitive play.

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23 hours ago, Destroyer_KuroshioKai said:

Simple.

shot-17.10.01_19.42.25-0683.jpg

shot-17.10.01_19.52.47-0951.jpg

What are you trying to show?  73k damage is barely 1 BB worth of HP.

 

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, Umikami said:

I think the Pan-Asian DD's are an indirect counter to the BB heavy meta currently dominant in the game.

IJN DD's are losing nothing; they will play exactly the same.

Which is mediocre.

 

Think that's the issue.. What was the purpose of nerfing IJN DD vs BBs and then bringing in another line to deal with the BB meta.  They could have just fixed IJN and make the line worth running.

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Just to clarify, the point of this thread is to figure out what role IJN DDS will have after the pan Asian DDS come out, especially since they have better torpedo systems from a damage and practicality standpoint.

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On 10/1/2017 at 9:38 PM, Destroyer_KuroshioKai said:

Simple.

shot-17.10.01_19.42.25-0683.jpg

shot-17.10.01_19.52.47-0951.jpg

oh, come on now, you know how easy it is for Shima to get into a good position to start with, thanks to the speed advantage Shima has.
The more difficult ships to play with are slower and have worse torpedoes that are detected further out, without any kind of damage bonus.

Mutsuki has awful torpedoes, but passable top speed
Akatsuki has good top speed, but the torps are simply awful
Kagero has poor top speed and barely acceptable torps
Harekaze has poor top speed and awful torps, but good guns
Hatsuharu has barely passable top speed, but the torps
Shiratsuyu is damn slow, and the torps are just not good either, although she can spam many awful torps.

It's just plain and simple.
Type93 torps are balanced against T10 maneuverability, but you get them in T8, which makes them kinda crap, because T8 ships are more agile.
Where as Type90 and Type8 torps are... well, they are utterly crap.

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1 hour ago, soko99 said:

What was the purpose of nerfing IJN DD vs BBs and then bringing in another line to deal with the BB meta.  They could have just fixed IJN and make the line worth running.

Yes, this is true, but doing it that way would involve admitting that WoW made a mistake.

Not going to happen.

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10 hours ago, soko99 said:

What are you trying to show?  73k damage is barely 1 BB worth of HP.

 

 

 

 

My post is more of a smart assed remark because so many people [edited] incessantly that IJN DDs suck.  In my observations most people are too lazy or dumb to move to a good torp position and instead chuck torps out ASAP at bow or stern on targets.  It's no wonder they find the line so painful.  It really is like only shooting angled targets in a BB.  Of course you are going to be frustrated.  So I posted some screen shots from my collection of good torp positions or situations that I use to teach clan mates who are struggling with torpedoes. 

Here are the remaining screen caps from the game.  To sum the battle up I ran off the Kagero to cap the point.  Killed his Atago escort that yoloed into my cap with my first torp spread, this is not shown.  I moved to this position to launch a second spread of torps aimed at a smoked up Shima and Monarch and the distant Iowa.  Killed the Shima and Monarch for the Double and got a flood on the Iowa forcing him to flee.  I then moved south of the islands to torp that Bismarck for kill number 4 it is not shown as well as it didnt make the cut for educational purposes so a cap wasnt taken.  For the giggles I ended the battle ramming a Kagero that had played passive opposite to me.  I include it here because diehard in a DD just makes me smile.

 

 

shot-17.10.01_19.53.02-0927.jpg

shot-17.10.01_19.57.31-0237.jpg

shot-17.10.01_19.58.03-0623.jpg

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10 hours ago, MrDeaf said:

oh, come on now, you know how easy it is for Shima to get into a good position to start with, thanks to the speed advantage Shima has.
The more difficult ships to play with are slower and have worse torpedoes that are detected further out, without any kind of damage bonus.

Mutsuki has awful torpedoes, but passable top speed
Akatsuki has good top speed, but the torps are simply awful
Kagero has poor top speed and barely acceptable torps
Harekaze has poor top speed and awful torps, but good guns
Hatsuharu has barely passable top speed, but the torps
Shiratsuyu is damn slow, and the torps are just not good either, although she can spam many awful torps.

It's just plain and simple.
Type93 torps are balanced against T10 maneuverability, but you get them in T8, which makes them kinda crap, because T8 ships are more agile.
Where as Type90 and Type8 torps are... well, they are utterly crap.

It is easier for Shima to move into positions but as you know already you play the slower torp boats in front of your team.  The image attached is a lesson I teach on working with a BB buddy to crossfire an enemy push.  The first set is mostly aimed the distant FDG creeping along.  I did land one on the Monty and FDG ate one as well.  The second set is all about the Monty.  My intention was not to outright kill either, but force their repairs with a flooding. 

I agree a bunch of the IJN boats need looked at. 

shot-17.05.01_21.23.07-0654.jpg

Edited by Destroyer_KuroshioKai

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On ‎10‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 4:31 PM, Thraxian said:

The worst thing about IJN destroyers is radar....

Fact.

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2 hours ago, Destroyer_KuroshioKai said:

My post is more of a smart assed remark because so many people [edited] incessantly that IJN DDs suck.  In my observations most people are too lazy or dumb to move to a good torp position and instead chuck torps out ASAP at bow or stern on targets.  It's no wonder they find the line so painful.  It really is like only shooting angled targets in a BB.  Of course you are going to be frustrated.  So I posted some screen shots from my collection of good torp positions or situations that I use to teach clan mates who are struggling with torpedoes. 

Here are the remaining screen caps from the game.  To sum the battle up I ran off the Kagero to cap the point.  Killed his Atago escort that yoloed into my cap with my first torp spread, this is not shown.  I moved to this position to launch a second spread of torps aimed at a smoked up Shima and Monarch and the distant Iowa.  Killed the Shima and Monarch for the Double and got a flood on the Iowa forcing him to flee.  I then moved south of the islands to torp that Bismarck for kill number 4 it is not shown as well as it didnt make the cut for educational purposes so a cap wasnt taken.  For the giggles I ended the battle ramming a Kagero that had played passive opposite to me.  I include it here because diehard in a DD just makes me smile.

 

 

 

 

Sounds like you played against a pretty derpy team.  The point is, if equally skilled players are in the various DDs, the IJNs more often than not come out on the bottom.  You killed an Atago that didn't know what he was doing, killed a horrible DD player sitting in smoke and apparently got really lucky by finding Kagero who would run from you instead of spotting you and getting you killed by backup thus them giving you too much space to work.  In a competitive games, none of that would happen.  Anyone can kill potatoes.

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I'm not trying to say that IJN DDs are useless, just whether or not there will be better options filling their role, as well as better filling other roles. The point of this thread is not whether they can be used correctly, but whether it would be better to bring another ship to fill their roles.

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Only real thing I see IJN DD being good for after Panasia line comes out is scouting and wall of torps into smoke, so guess smoke clearer is going to be its new role? If rader ships can't safely do it

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err, can't pan Asians do that better with radar and superior guns?

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