Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
You need to play a total of 10 battles to post in this section.
WidochMeirker

More Damage To IJN DD line

23 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

Members
139 posts
2,313 battles

So, clan wars are coming out, and they've decided that aircraft carriers aren't going to be allowed into them.  As a result of this, no one is going to running AA builds on their cruisers.  If you're not running any AA skills for clan wars, ships will be set up for hydro and radar and captain skills will be moved from AA skills to things like vigilance.  Additionally , each team can only bring one BB.  So, torp just aren't going to be useful.  Everyone will be able to see them, cruisers can easily dodge them and there's going to be massive radar blankets everywhere.  So, no serious clan is going to allow a IJN DD into their battle.  Every clan will just bring a Khabarovsk.

If you're interested in clan wars, just give up on the IJN DD line.  You're wasting your time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,416
[CUTE]
Supertester
4,114 posts
4,179 battles

Torps will cause people to move out of the way, denying caps early on. It would also force ships to give broadsides for allied ships to do massive citadel damage. In competitive, torps aren't just damage dealers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,225
[SYN]
Members
14,847 posts
11,306 battles

How well will a Khab stand up to against focused fire from 7x Des Moines / Moskva?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
474
[FAE]
Members
2,309 posts
2,881 battles

you kidding?  i raise you 1 Conq + 1 Des Moines + 5 Shimakaze.  5 x 15 = 75 torpedooooooo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
842 posts

Widoch is correct:  without CVs, everything will be equipped with hydro and radar.  Which means the 6% Shimakaze hit rate will drop even further, because not only will everyone be in highly-maneuverable CAs and DDs, but the 1.8km spotting distance of the Shima's torps will double to almost 4km with all the hydro running all the time.

The Shima's 8km torps are suicidal to run - you'd die just getting them off with all the radar running around, and it's unlikely they'll hit anything anyway with the hydro to spot them. The 20km torps will just be area denial and you'll never hit anything with them, and the 12km torps probably offer the best chance of scoring 1 or 2 hits per game, max.

Basically, Clan Wars reduces the IJN DDs to a purely support roll:  smoke your allies, spot for them while in smoke, and do some area denial.  Don't ever expect to cause any damage, you'll never cap, and you'll get HORRIBLE XP.

Clan Wars will be filled with mostly KM and US DDs, as they've got the proper combination of stealth, guns, torps, speed, maneuverability, and special abilities to survive for more than 10 seconds in the kind of Cluster-F of a game WG has designed.

And, of course, everyone is going to re-spec their ships for zero AA (so, massive secondaries on everything) and they'll do the same for the captain skills.  Vigilance will be run on everything, making scoring a hit virtually impossible. RDF will be everywhere, so the Shima's stealth is significantly discounted. Basics of Survivability makes the small likelihood of flooding even tinier.

As much as Clan Wars was a middle finger to CVs, it's a poke-in-the-eye to IJN DD players.  It's almost like they set out to intentionally screw over as much of their player base as possible.

Edited by EAnybody
  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
982 posts
4,606 battles

CA or not, there is no dodging 45 cross dropped torpedoes, launched from beyond radar range, the difference from random is that 3 shimas can coordinate their launches perfectly.

In 7v7, losing  even 1 ship is heavy, and shimas  can lob torpedoes without endangering themselves. Bound to hit at least something for free 23k damage.

Edited by Vaitmana

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
603 posts
7,360 battles

to be honest, I want WG to go ahead and do the clan war just as how they announce it to be.

cos it will shows all the unbalance and problems we have now at high tier, especially tier 10.

I think you guys predicting it right. IJN ships (not only DD) will be almost usless in the clan war.

Yamato, the BB killer is uesless here, cos there will be only 1 BB on the enemy team, better bring those 12 guns BB than a 9 with slow turret.

Zao...while being alright..there are just better pick out there. Des Moines, Moskva with radar, Hindi with better hydro.

Shimakaze...... she really need a crazy clan to even try to make it works...just as someone said. you can try with 5 shima and lay torp blanket that there are no place to evade them. but other than that, Z52, khaba are just better pick.

 

power creep is so bad right now. The two best navy in WW2, USN and IJN are argubly the worst in game. They need buffs!! (or the other need nerfs)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
2,107 posts
10,673 battles

Gearing, and Z-52 are going to be strong DDs this season, no doubt.

They have a real weak point.  Both are slow and clumsy as far as DDs go.  They are very vulnerable to radar induced focus fire.  Shima however is more survivable in a radar heavy environment due to the increased acceleration, speed, and ability to shake the booty.  Being less prone to eating [edited] BB AP pens is also a factor.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
2,107 posts
10,673 battles
9 hours ago, Vaitmana said:

CA or not, there is no dodging 45 cross dropped torpedoes, launched from beyond radar range, the difference from random is that 3 shimas can coordinate their launches perfectly.

In 7v7, losing  even 1 ship is heavy, and shimas  can lob torpedoes without endangering themselves. Bound to hit at least something for free 23k damage.

We faced 7v7 Shima, Khaba, CA only etc comps several times.  One of our CA player has a screenshot in his Des Moines dodging 40 something torps on his screen, and he never took a torp.  The ability to chain radar for up to 10 minutes straight makes these sophisticated torp attacks almost impossible if the enemy CA push aggressively.  Add hydro chaining for extra protection too.

All of these comps were massacred by a balanced team with the ships doing their jobs.  These all one type comps are pretty much a joke, they have very little chance of winning.  The balanced team just has more capabilities and tool to be brought to bear.

In the case of DDs, they are good at taking a cap, but cant actually hold a cap in the face of a hard push by a battle group.  They ended up capless and pushed in to the borders by radar.

Edited by Destroyer_KuroshioKai
  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
842 posts
1 hour ago, Destroyer_KuroshioKai said:

We faced 7v7 Shima, Khaba, CA only etc comps several times.  One of our CA player has a screenshot in his Des Moines dodging 40 something torps on his screen, and he never took a torp.  The ability to chain radar for up to 10 minutes straight makes these sophisticated torp attacks almost impossible if the enemy CA push aggressively.  Add hydro chaining for extra protection too.

All of these comps were massacred by a balanced team with the ships doing their jobs.  These all one type comps are pretty much a joke, they have very little chance of winning.  The balanced team just has more capabilities and tool to be brought to bear.

In the case of DDs, they are good at taking a cap, but cant actually hold a cap in the face of a hard push by a battle group.  They ended up capless and pushed in to the borders by radar.

Let's be clear here:  in the kind of game that Clan Wars is gonna be, here's what's gonna happen:

  1. Only Radar-equipped ships will be played if there is an option.
  2. Every team will contain a minimum of 3 radar cruisers, which means you can chain radar for almost 12 MINUTES continuously.
  3. If things go as I expect, a team will consist of 1 DD, 5 CAs, and a BB (heck, there's a good chance it will be 6 CAs and 1 BB, the setup is *that* unbalanced).  Which means they're been theoretically able to chain radar THE ENTIRE GAME. Even with losses, expect that well over HALF the game will have radar over the large majority of the team.
  4. Radar, with it's magic no-LOS issues, has between a 10 and 12km range.  No sane DD player will approach closer than 14km to launch, to give time to back away.
  5. At 14km, that means you'd have to use the 20km Shima torps, which are excruciatingly slow with terrible visibility.  Even worse, at 14km, the spread is horrendous - gaps between torps shot at a "tight" setting are almost 500m when they get to 14km - big enough to almost park a GKF broadside between them.
  6. To compensate for #5, you have to throw all 3 sets down essentially the exact same path. Which means the total area covered drops radically, making is simple to run around the edge of where the torps are going.
  7. Multi-Shima drops are a fantasy for effectiveness.  The maps will be the typical T10 ones, which means they're not Ocean, and have LOTS of islands scattered around. That channels the effective torp shooting places, which in turn means that watching them becomes a priority, and again, with the Hydro/Vigilance meta going to totally dominate, it'll be simple to drop behind hard cover with the 30-40 seconds notice you get of incoming torps.
  8. There will be no ambushes around islands. See #2 for why.
  9. DDs CANNOT cap in the face of continuous radar, or even the valid THREAT of radar.  No matter what you do as a DD, you'll either be murdered with direct fire almost instantly, or you'll be stuck behind some well-place island, doing nothing useful except hoping the enemy team leaves the cap area so you can finish the cap (fat chance of that, too, since they now know where you are, and will maneuver to kill a stationary target within a minute or two at most).
  10. As a result of #9, no one will cap. Ever. Or, at best, the entire team A will take one cap unopposed, while team B does the same to the other cap.  Every game will de-facto be a Domination game, where controlling caps is completely irrelevant to the outcome of the game.
  11. Heck, even smoke will be much less useful than before, due to #1.  Smoking will only be useful when the range is 14km+ from the enemy.
  12. Every single Shima on your team reduces the number of cruisers you can bring. Given the VERY limited number of ships in Clan Wars, that's a huge reduction in DPM that absolutely will be felt as soon as the shooting starts.  Maybe 3 Shimas could theoretically be useful.  But the other team, stacked full of cruisers, will VERY quickly sink all the non-Shimas on your team, due to a 7:4 firepower imbalance.  So where does that leave your team?  You'll be down 2 or 3 ships LONG before your Shimas can get in position for their Torp Wall attempts. And your team will probably all be dead except the Shimas within 5 minutes.  Which leaves the enemy team with 3 or 4  radar cruisers to go Shima hunting. I leave it to you as an exercise to figure out who's ALWAYS gonna come out ahead on that scenario.  Heck, the same logic will probably apply to all DDs, but the Shima is especially useless in this kind of meta.

Also, something people haven't brought up yet, but again will negatively affect the ability to torp:

Clans will demand VOIP for all players, so reaction times to any threats will drop drastically. The instant any torp is spotted by anyone on the team, EVERYONE will know about it and start to react.  Unlike now, where people regularly ignore warnings from teammates because they're not paying attention to Chat or don't care about the minimap pointers. 

Heck, even in the current T10 meta, long-distance torping is really iffy. I've played in well-coordinated divisions, and it helps very little, if at all - the divisions are mostly useful for gunships and capping utility in Random. 

So, given the above, which is all blazingly obvious for anyone who has played T10 for more than a gnat's worth of time, what can a Shima contribute?  Torps are completely ineffective, even with 2 or 3 sisters trying to spam. You can't cap at all, nor can you shoot at anything, and ambushes are impossible. Your smoke ability is not terribly useful (and US DD smoke is far better, anyway).   That leaves.... spotting. Out at 14-15km away from your opponent. Which means you're only spotting them when they're firing.  Yeah, that's terribly useful.  And can be done just as well by any other DD.

Clan Wars are a dumb idea, because, as pretty much all the various YouTube WoWS commenters have pointed out, the restrictions mean that the number of viable ships to use boils down to about 1 for each type, and the tactics used will be boring and predictable, because nothing else has a snowball's chance in hell of working.  The ONLY thing Clan Wars is useful for is to give WG the opportunity to make money renting ships to clueless people. 

I leave it to you to decide how it feels to play a game where the company is willing to screw over it's player base for cash.  Not "make money providing value", but "Exploit people who don't know better to make a buck, while hurting it's existing customer base"

 

Edited by EAnybody
  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
139 posts
2,313 battles

I'm glad EAnybody replied.  He basically got all the points I wanted to make.


Basically, if you think mass Shima torp walls are going to work, you're expecting to play against people who are borderline mentally handicapped.  All it takes is hydro chains and radar chains to stop the torps from hitting anything and then in turn wipe out the DDs that sent them. All the while shooting the absolute crap out of the rest of the fleet that's horribly outgunned because your Shimas are hiding and shooting torps every minute and a half.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5,312
[WOLF3]
[WOLF3]
Members
17,247 posts
15,762 battles

Good luck with torpedo use.  It's going to be very dangerous and frustrating for DDs.

 

No CVs?

- Cruisers drop AA Builds and any pretense towards that.  BFT?  Nah, VIGILANCE or Superintendent for MOAR HYDRO / RADAR CHARGES.  No BFT for AA.  No Manual AA trait.  That is A LOT of points freed up for the captain to be used in other things.

 

- No AA Build?  That means no AAGM2, no AAGM3 upgrades.  That means ASM1 for more accurate gunfire.  MBM3 to speed up gun reloads.

 

- Moskva, Des Moines with Radar & Hydro capability at the same time.  No CV means no Defensive Fire, so dropping DF in favor of Hydro will be the norm.  Really, expect to see a lot of Moskva and Des Moines.  DM has stupidly long Radar active time, especially with the upgrade.  Moskva has range for her Radar.  But unlike DM, she has Russian Railguns to accurately shoot at whatever her Radar catches, or what the DDs of her team spot at long range.

-----

DDs depended heavily on big, dumb BBs as their ideal targets to torpedo.  But in Clan Wars, teams are limited to only ONE BB.  All you'll realistically see are tons of DDs and Cruisers, all of which handle markedly better than a BB.  Rest assured that the Cruisers you'll be seeing will be lots of Radar Cruisers.  Hydro will be the bare minimum.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,225
[SYN]
Members
14,847 posts
11,306 battles

I think it is very likely you will encounter a 1x Gearing, 5x Des Moines / Moskva and 1x Conqueror as the optimal build in CW.

5x DM or Moskva can chain hydro and radar quite well. Moskva being a bit more tanky, while Des Moines offering more firepower.

Gearing is mainly there to smoke up a ship taking too much fire.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Testers
1,883 posts
10,762 battles
4 hours ago, MrDeaf said:

I think it is very likely you will encounter a 1x Gearing, 5x Des Moines / Moskva and 1x Conqueror as the optimal build in CW.

5x DM or Moskva can chain hydro and radar quite well. Moskva being a bit more tanky, while Des Moines offering more firepower.

Gearing is mainly there to smoke up a ship taking too much fire.

I suspect CW will go live at or after the time the smoke nerf. In that case, there's no use for the Gearing. Heck with the constant radar coverage, smoke is useless anyway.

I think 7 radar CAs will be the norm. 1 of them may even be a Minotaur just in case the opponent is stupid enough to bring any DD.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,480
[FOXEH]
Beta Testers
9,327 posts
15,768 battles

Has anyone considered what not having CV's in the matches will mean to spotting? Especially spotting done by spotting aircraft?

With NO ONE specced for AA, and no CV planes to kill them, shooting down spotter aircraft will be marginal at best. Think hydro and radar are going to be bad? How many high tier BB's and cruisers carry spotting planes?

No CV's, one BB, and 6 more slots to fill. I'm thinking a minimum of 8 spotter aircraft in the match, every match.

Who here wants to sign up now for being the guy who has the enemy plane spotting him for every red there is?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
408
[CVA16]
Members
2,782 posts
10,470 battles

Maybe WG should have further delineated the team composition to: 1BB, 3CA, 3DD. Kind of a "hire the handicapped" approach. Force a team to take DDs to limit the inevitable radar chaining that everyone (except WG apparently) knows is going to happen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
982 posts
4,606 battles

I do not plan to play cw, so I care less tbh, but Cw will truly show all the poor balance decisions that wg keep doing, it already did with cvs being excluded. Radar and 2x spotters per ship show how stupid things like that take all the tactical play out of the game, together with fun.

It will all come down to who can focus fire enemy better and out dpm them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
569 posts
12,978 battles
16 hours ago, EAnybody said:

Let's be clear here:  in the kind of game that Clan Wars is gonna be, here's what's gonna happen:

 

  1. Every team will contain a minimum of 3 radar cruisers, which means you can chain radar for almost 12 MINUTES continuously.

 

 

Your math is off here.  Minotaur and Des Moines both have radar that lasts 40 seconds, with a 2 minute cool down, when using Premium consumables.  With Superintendent and Premium Consumables combined, they can use Radar 4 times each.

This is thus every easily to calculate.  With 3 radar ships, yes, you can indeed provide continuous radar, provided that all 3 ships continue to survive in the game.   Once one goes down, you will then have cool down gaps.   But assuming that all three continued to stay alive, the correct max number for having continuous radar is 8 minutes, not 12.  40 seconds times 3 ships is 2 minutes.   And 2 minutes times 4 consumables per ship then gives you a total of 8 minutes of radar coverage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
408
[CVA16]
Members
2,782 posts
10,470 battles

Just wondering, if you have DD-less matches (1BB, 6CA) you won't have much smoke (unless all the CAs are Brit, and even then they are small smoke clouds). Does radar then lose most of its value? . If both sides have a similar composition and can pretty much negate each others smoke at will, what would the major advantage of having all radar CAs be? Most ships are already visible at radar ranges. Seems the ships caught sitting in smoke will die early so the side with the highest firepower would get the early advantage that should lead to a win so you only need enough radar for the initial encounter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
139 posts
2,313 battles
2 hours ago, Sabot_100 said:

Just wondering, if you have DD-less matches (1BB, 6CA) you won't have much smoke (unless all the CAs are Brit, and even then they are small smoke clouds). Does radar then lose most of its value? . If both sides have a similar composition and can pretty much negate each others smoke at will, what would the major advantage of having all radar CAs be? Most ships are already visible at radar ranges. Seems the ships caught sitting in smoke will die early so the side with the highest firepower would get the early advantage that should lead to a win so you only need enough radar for the initial encounter.

This is why I thought if there is a destroyer it'll be the Khabarovsk.  Smoke won't be that useful, but if there's a DD, you want one that just pew pews stuff to death.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
842 posts

Smoke will be a a screen, not a camping spot. Since it still blocks LOS, you'll put up a smoke 2-4km in front of your forces, blocking view. The Radar cruisers then can't get close enough to spot through it without they themselves being erased.  That's where the DD will play it's small role:  creating the smoke, then going WAAAAY outside to spot.  I'd actually vote for a Gearing over a Khab, but both should be quite effective.

And radar is still really useful for it's See-Through-Mountains thing, which severely negates a whole lot of positional strategy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
408
[CVA16]
Members
2,782 posts
10,470 battles
14 hours ago, WidochMeirker said:

This is why I thought if there is a destroyer it'll be the Khabarovsk.

I was thinking that too. It is a great decoy. Everybody wants to kill a spotted DD and no DD has the  same ability/speed to dodge the incoming shells. If you are wasting your time trying to hit a target while the enemy is actually doing damage, the enemy is winning.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×