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Cpt_Cupcake

GZ fighters...

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I'm pretty sure WG is going to end up making them tier 7 so they can take advantage of the Captain skill. Currently a lot of people are calling for an HP or DPS buff to make them competitive. What about making them able to go 180kts instead of 175kts? I feel that would be a sufficient buff to make them competitive, but unique. What do you guys think?

Edited by Cpt_Cupcake
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11 minutes ago, Cpt_Cupcake said:

I'm pretty sure WG is going to end up making them tier 7 so they can take advantage of the Captain skill. Currently a lot of people are calling for an HP or DPS buff to make them competitive. What about making them able to go 180kts instead of 175kts? I feel that would be a sufficient buff to make them competitive, but unique. What do you guys think?

 

I don't think that's gonna help, they're already the fastest fighters at tier, the just need to be able to kill something when you get them in place.

Speed isn't the issue, the issue is, they can't dogfight, they seldom wipe out fighters with strafes, you get few strafes before they're empty and they fall out of the air if anyone looks at them funny.

 

Fully skilled, Graf Zeppelin puts as many aircraft as a fully skilled Hiryu in the air, with the same hanger size and with weaker aircraft at tier. She tears through her own air wing way too fast, you need to get some of your aircraft back to rearm if you expect to do your job through the entire game. The Hiryu also has the same problem, but nowhere near as bad because her air wing can get the job done, and if you're good, get something back to the ship.

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1 minute ago, SgtBeltfed said:

 

I don't think that's gonna help, they're already the fastest fighters at tier, the just need to be able to kill something when you get them in place.

Speed isn't the issue, the issue is, they can't dogfight, they seldom wipe out fighters with strafes, you get few strafes before they're empty and they fall out of the air if anyone looks at them funny.

 

Fully skilled, Graf Zeppelin puts as many aircraft as a fully skilled Hiryu in the air, with the same hanger size and with weaker aircraft at tier. She tears through her own air wing way too fast, you need to get some of your aircraft back to rearm if you expect to do your job through the entire game. The Hiryu also has the same problem, but nowhere near as bad because her air wing can get the job done, and if you're good, get something back to the ship.

I fully agree with you, but how would you attempt to balance them? Just a simple DPS/HP buff?

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Just a simple and very minor HP buff. Which would address another problem which many overlook (not having or very rarely playing their GZ in random battles), GZ tier8 fighters in a tier 10 match have as their principal task, scouting. They cannot do that efficiently if they get shot out fo the sky too quickly by enemy dds... A 10% hp buff would give them a fair chance of returning safely to their carrier to rearm after a strafing run, as well.

Players and WG make this all far more complicated  than it needs to be.

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Just now, Cpt_Cupcake said:

I fully agree with you, but how would you attempt to balance them? Just a simple DPS/HP buff?

 

That would depend on exactly what Wargaming wants to achieve.

 

If they want the fighters to be higher skill and strafe reliant, somewhat higher DPS, and a higher ammo count.

If they want them less skill dependent, newer CV player friendly, then more DPS and hit points. 

 

As a premium ship available in the store, I'd lean towards making them less skill dependent, as in theory, you'll have less skilled players paying real money for the ship, maybe without a good grasp of CV operations.

If she was a reward ship, or a ship high in a tech tree, then I'd go with being strafe reliant as the players receiving them would have the skills to handle it.

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26 minutes ago, nuttybiscuit said:

Just a simple and very minor HP buff. Which would address another problem which many overlook (not having or very rarely playing their GZ in random battles), GZ tier8 fighters in a tier 10 match have as their principal task, scouting. They cannot do that efficiently if they get shot out fo the sky too quickly by enemy dds... A 10% hp buff would give them a fair chance of returning safely to their carrier to rearm after a strafing run, as well.

Players and WG make this all far more complicated  than it needs to be.

I feel they still shouldn't be able to compete head on with their same tier counterparts, not with the current Me109 they have chosen to use. I feel they should have a unique advantage that can be used successful, hence why I'm the opinion of further speed increase to 180kts.

 

22 minutes ago, SgtBeltfed said:

 

That would depend on exactly what Wargaming wants to achieve.

 

If they want the fighters to be higher skill and strafe reliant, somewhat higher DPS, and a higher ammo count.

If they want them less skill dependent, newer CV player friendly, then more DPS and hit points. 

 

As a premium ship available in the store, I'd lean towards making them less skill dependent, as in theory, you'll have less skilled players paying real money for the ship, maybe without a good grasp of CV operations.

If she was a reward ship, or a ship high in a tech tree, then I'd go with being strafe reliant as the players receiving them would have the skills to handle it.

I agree with you however. If they were to re-release it with just fixed AP bombs or torps, the fighters would still get destroyed in their current state. That being said, the skill disparity between cv captains would is still an issue even with buffed fighters.

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When WG started 2nd testing? I just done with a match both allied & enemy team GZ test with torp bombers.

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56 minutes ago, Cpt_Cupcake said:

I feel they still shouldn't be able to compete head on with their same tier counterparts, not with the current Me109 they have chosen to use. I feel they should have a unique advantage that can be used successful, hence why I'm the opinion of further speed increase to 180kts.

 

I agree with you however. If they were to re-release it with just fixed AP bombs or torps, the fighters would still get destroyed in their current state. That being said, the skill disparity between cv captains would is still an issue even with buffed fighters.

 

Skill disparity will be a problem anyway, but that applies to every type of ship. It's just more obvious with CV's

 

She needs her fighters fixed, and her strike aircraft need to be able to get the job done. I can make the Stock GZ function with the HE dive bombers, I have never tried to use the stock AP dive bombers, and yes, the fighters are useless. The round 1's GZ Test 1's fighters are closer to right, they just needed a little more something, and the AP dive bombers we good enough (probably too good against German BB's, but they were still underwelming otherwise) I'd rather have the HE myself (I like the utility of them). and the round 1's GZ Test 2 was basically useless. I haven't got my hands on the round 2 ships yet, so I'll reserve judgement on the deepwater torps.

 

As far as their aircraft choice, the designation doesn't really matter, the aircraft are abstracted enough. If she's supposed to represent her initial 1940 configuration, the Bf109T's & Ju87C's are accurate, but they should be about tier 6 aircraft. The second go around on the GZ shortly before construction has halted for the last time, she would carry early Me155 project aircraft (the navalized Bf109G, not the high altitude fighter) and Ju87D-4's, and they would probably be tier 7 aircraft.

 

** and after rereading you reply, if her fighters cannot mix it up in some way with the other CV's fighters, she'll be completely useless, no matter how good her strike aircraft and the other CV would then ignore the fighters, and wipe out her strike aircraft **

Edited by SgtBeltfed

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Considering the fact I am now hearing GZ will have Bismarck Secondary gun power and those AP dive bombs, let's face it the ship has to have some weaknesses.

Personally though if they majorly dial back the AP Bomb power level I would not be opposed to GZ getting significant Fighter Buffs.

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12 hours ago, SgtBeltfed said:

** and after rereading you reply, if her fighters cannot mix it up in some way with the other CV's fighters, she'll be completely useless, no matter how good her strike aircraft and the other CV would then ignore the fighters, and wipe out her strike aircraft **

I should have been clearer, click-dogfighting is what I meant to refer to.

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4 hours ago, Cpt_Cupcake said:

I should have been clearer, click-dogfighting is what I meant to refer to.

Np, if they want a lower skill floor for less skilled players, then click-dogfighting it is. If they want a higher skill ceiling, then buff them for strafes.

 

With he HE dive bombers, and the tier 7 fighters, slightly buffed, she'd be easier for people new to CV's that don't have the skills.

Having a less skill dependent loadout, and a more skill dependent loadout might be a good idea, say making the tier 7 Bf109T's click dogfighters, and upgradable to tier 8 Me155's for strafing?

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17 hours ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Considering the fact I am now hearing GZ will have Bismarck Secondary gun power and those AP dive bombs, let's face it the ship has to have some weaknesses.

Personally though if they majorly dial back the AP Bomb power level I would not be opposed to GZ getting significant Fighter Buffs.

I think we'd excuse WG for removing the AP altogether, and leaving us with only the HE, if they buffed the fighters enough to make them useful as more than scouts in tier 6 matches. AP will never, and can never, be optimal in random battle meta t6-t10, because it is useless versus dds (similar problem with proposed torpedos).- an opinion based on the assumption WG does not intend to allow in game ammunition HE/AP switching for the dive bombers.

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6 minutes ago, nuttybiscuit said:

I think we'd excuse WG for removing the AP altogether, and leaving us with only the HE, if they buffed the fighters enough to make them useful as more than scouts in tier 6 matches. AP will never, and can never, be optimal in random battle meta t6-t10, because it is useless versus dds (similar problem with proposed torpedos).- an opinion based on the assumption WG does not intend to allow in game ammunition HE/AP switching for the dive bombers.

Yeah because AP is really only good for use against BBs and it's often of questionable use against CAs, and useless against DDs, Not sure how useful AP is against CVs either when lighting their flight deck on fire makes things more interesting.

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Just now, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Yeah because AP is really only good for use against BBs and it's often of questionable use against CAs, and useless against DDs, Not sure how useful AP is against CVs either when lighting their flight deck on fire makes things more interesting.

Marginal value against a CV with decent AA, as no DOT dmg to compensate lost dive bombers.

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Just now, nuttybiscuit said:

Marginal value against a CV with decent AA, as no DOT dmg to compensate lost dive bombers.

So basically the small group of players that hate BBs has gotten out of hand with their complaining to Wargaming and now we just have a Wapon that Only targets the BBs while providing only some Spotting assistance to their team which can easily enough get shot down...

Lol this will turn out interesting, hopefully they hurry up and get the Sever bugs patched so I can get back into the game. Need to finish the last of the XP needed for a tier 8 CZv since Graf Zeplin sounds like it will be fun to face from the air....

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3 minutes ago, Sir_Davos_Seaworth said:

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Just a thought...

 

 

Yeah BF109 was quite a fine aircraft and claimed thousands of kills in WWII, little surprised it's doing so bad in game. But as your pointing out there were other Fighter options.

Edited by Admiral_Thrawn_1

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People don't seem to realize that the Bf.109T is a 1936-1938 air frame, modified to work on a carrier rather than the dedicated carrier aircraft from the early 1940s that we get on the USN and IJN lines. So they should be weaker both offensively and defensively than their counterparts due to it being an older air frame. So if you compare it to aircraft of the same era (roughly the tier 6 into 7 aircraft) it's more or less on par with them in everything other than speed. So all in all I don't have a problem with the fighters as is. Although I do think they should be classavied as tier 7 due to the age of the air frame.

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On 10/1/2017 at 0:11 AM, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Considering the fact I am now hearing GZ will have Bismarck Secondary gun power and those AP dive bombs, let's face it the ship has to have some weaknesses.

Personally though if they majorly dial back the AP Bomb power level I would not be opposed to GZ getting significant Fighter Buffs.

 

The crazy secondary guns are pretty pointless from the standpoint of operating a carrier in game. They're funny when they actually do something (kinda like the AA guns on tier 2 ships when they shoot down a Katori's fighter or Kaga nuking a cruiser with her 8 inchers), but they're not the centerpiece of the ship. CV's are too fragile and flammable to get up close and personal like that on a regular basis.

 

The AP bombs on the dive bombers will probably never be good enough as a main weapon on a carrier without some kind of backup. Enterprise can get away with it because she has torp bombers, if there's no BB's on the field she can do a bad Shokaku impersonation. GZ turns into a bad air superiority CV with lots of bad scout planes. I still haven't got the torp bombers to test, but I don't have much hope in them from what I'm hearing.

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53 minutes ago, SgtBeltfed said:

 

The crazy secondary guns are pretty pointless from the standpoint of operating a carrier in game. They're funny when they actually do something (kinda like the AA guns on tier 2 ships when they shoot down a Katori's fighter or Kaga nuking a cruiser with her 8 inchers), but they're not the centerpiece of the ship. CV's are too fragile and flammable to get up close and personal like that on a regular basis.

 

The AP bombs on the dive bombers will probably never be good enough as a main weapon on a carrier without some kind of backup. Enterprise can get away with it because she has torp bombers, if there's no BB's on the field she can do a bad Shokaku impersonation. GZ turns into a bad air superiority CV with lots of bad scout planes. I still haven't got the torp bombers to test, but I don't have much hope in them from what I'm hearing.

I think you'll find that GZ is about as tough as any tier 8 cruiser when it comes to armor, with more health so taking to the second line is possible. I wouldn't say I recomend it but I have gotten some amusing kills with the secondaries. As for the All or nothing bomber load out I am hoping we get an Torpedo/AP bomber choice with some HE bombers mixed in there too. 

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54 minutes ago, Grathew said:

I think you'll find that GZ is about as tough as any tier 8 cruiser when it comes to armor, with more health so taking to the second line is possible. I wouldn't say I recomend it but I have gotten some amusing kills with the secondaries. As for the All or nothing bomber load out I am hoping we get an Torpedo/AP bomber choice with some HE bombers mixed in there too. 

 

I'm with you hoping for a loadout with some utility.

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Just got the GZ Test 1 with tier 7 Bf109T's and torp bombers. Just took it into a co-op to drop some torps, they're gonna take some getting used to.

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22 hours ago, SgtBeltfed said:

 

The crazy secondary guns are pretty pointless from the standpoint of operating a carrier in game. They're funny when they actually do something (kinda like the AA guns on tier 2 ships when they shoot down a Katori's fighter or Kaga nuking a cruiser with her 8 inchers), but they're not the centerpiece of the ship. CV's are too fragile and flammable to get up close and personal like that on a regular basis.

 

The AP bombs on the dive bombers will probably never be good enough as a main weapon on a carrier without some kind of backup. Enterprise can get away with it because she has torp bombers, if there's no BB's on the field she can do a bad Shokaku impersonation. GZ turns into a bad air superiority CV with lots of bad scout planes. I still haven't got the torp bombers to test, but I don't have much hope in them from what I'm hearing.

 

If the GZ truely ends up with Secondaries as strong as Bismarck it will mean that many DDs will not even be able to get into their attack range without possibly getting killed and CAs will get nervous too if the GZ is secondary build, meaning only a CV, BB, some CAs would be able to be counted on to actually kill a GZ and the GX AP Bombs currently are so Overpowered at the moment Any BB or some Heavy Cruisers attempting to attack the GZ can get blown out of the water with 1 bomb usually, sometimes a ship can take 2 or possible 3 of those bombs but receiving 3 GZ AP Bomb hits and surviving would be really pushing it.

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7 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

 

If the GZ truely ends up with Secondaries as strong as Bismarck it will mean that many DDs will not even be able to get into their attack range without possibly getting killed and CAs will get nervous too if the GZ is secondary build, meaning only a CV, BB, some CAs would be able to be counted on to actually kill a GZ and the GX AP Bombs currently are so Overpowered at the moment Any BB or some Heavy Cruisers attempting to attack the GZ can get blown out of the water with 1 bomb usually, sometimes a ship can take 2 or possible 3 of those bombs but receiving 3 GZ AP Bomb hits and surviving would be really pushing it.

 

No cruiser at tier should have a problem killing a GZ, they should engage from beyond effective secondary range and be mostly immune to the dive bombers either by shooting them down, or what's left overpenning while they burn the GZ to the waterline. BB's only have a huge problem if they're German. Also, if you secondary spec the GZ, you aren't going to contest the air at all, and the other CV's gonna have a field day. If a DD can get in gun range and someone spots for them, all they have to do is drive up, pop smoke, and start shelling. The AP bombs are neat when they work, 

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On ‎10‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 5:21 PM, SgtBeltfed said:

 

The crazy secondary guns are pretty pointless from the standpoint of operating a carrier in game. They're funny when they actually do something (kinda like the AA guns on tier 2 ships when they shoot down a Katori's fighter or Kaga nuking a cruiser with her 8 inchers), but they're not the centerpiece of the ship. CV's are too fragile and flammable to get up close and personal like that on a regular basis.

 

The AP bombs on the dive bombers will probably never be good enough as a main weapon on a carrier without some kind of backup. Enterprise can get away with it because she has torp bombers, if there's no BB's on the field she can do a bad Shokaku impersonation. GZ turns into a bad air superiority CV with lots of bad scout planes. I still haven't got the torp bombers to test, but I don't have much hope in them from what I'm hearing.

In my personal experiences, you can reliably 1v1 most crusiers and dds. Those two classes can't really do citadels to the GZ. But, Alas, I don't run it as I would a traditional CV...

shot-17.10.03_19.58.43-0128.jpg

shot-17.10.03_19.58.20-0726.jpg

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