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NeutralState

[Rant] CV Too Much Influence, CV Removed From Clan Wars is Good Thing, for Now.

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Everyone and their mother are hating WG on removing CV from clan wars. But CVs do have disproportional impact on the outcome of a match. Their ability to provide vision anywhere on the map with little to no cost alone makes them extremely powerful. Their spotting will also be even more powerful with the upcoming smoke changes. Played a dozen or so rounds this morning, just now. Almost every loss is due to the skill differences between allied and enemy CVs. 

 

The opening spotting with planes alone can immediately change the behavior of both teams. In a game with abundant DDs, if one side's CV outplays the other and zones out enemy DDs, then the outcome of the match is pretty much written in stone from that moment onward. 

 

Really hope WG's going to change some of the CV mechanics. 

CV hate.png

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14 minutes ago, NeutralState said:

Everyone and their mother are hating WG on removing CV from clan wars. But CVs do have disproportional impact on the outcome of a match. Their ability to provide vision anywhere on the map with little to no cost alone makes them extremely powerful. Their spotting will also be even more powerful with the upcoming smoke changes. Played a dozen or so rounds this morning, just now. Almost every loss is due to the skill differences between allied and enemy CVs. 

 

The opening spotting with planes alone can immediately change the behavior of both teams. In a game with abundant DDs, if one side's CV outplays the other and zones out enemy DDs, then the outcome of the match is pretty much written in stone from that moment onward. 

 

Really hope WG's going to change some of the CV mechanics. 

CV hate.png

So instead of dealing with their impact, you want to increase your own and force people to deal with you.

 

Well I got something to say to that. Because of no carriers, no need for DFAA or AA builds at all, so get ready for the hydro/radar s***show.

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24 minutes ago, IronWolfV said:

So instead of dealing with their impact, you want to increase your own and force people to deal with you.

 

Well I got something to say to that. Because of no carriers, no need for DFAA or AA builds at all, so get ready for the hydro/radar s***show.

Agree. And random battles where you have no control over who teams up with you are not a good argument for clan wars where you have total control.

Your clan doesn't have any good CV players? Well. That's why you will have hard time winning, isn't it? It's no different from a clan not having good enough player of any type. Don't have a balanced roster, don't win as much.

This type restriction is just awful. Even from a DD player who absolutely hates seeing CV. 

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So besides your data-point of one, yourself, do you have anything else to substantiate your position?

 

You know, I've played every type of class, but what you're saying, and I will lump you in with the others who say the same about battleships is like this. . . 

 

There was a game called "Pirates of the Burning Sea" . . . It would be like saying "How dare you have fun playing First Rate Ships of the Line in game, they should have them all removed 100 guns is too much".

 

To be fair I said inevitably when the first video I saw "Are Battleships Ruining the Game" came out, that things would devolve into us patching each other out of existence. Alas, sure, let's rail against CVs who are already hurting and barely played.

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1 hour ago, Beneej_Spoor said:

So besides your data-point of one, yourself, do you have anything else to substantiate your position?

 

You know, I've played every type of class, but what you're saying, and I will lump you in with the others who say the same about battleships is like this. . . 

 

There was a game called "Pirates of the Burning Sea" . . . It would be like saying "How dare you have fun playing First Rate Ships of the Line in game, they should have them all removed 100 guns is too much".

 

To be fair I said inevitably when the first video I saw "Are Battleships Ruining the Game" came out, that things would devolve into us patching each other out of existence. Alas, sure, let's rail against CVs who are already hurting and barely played.

Pirates could of been something EPIC. Instead just meh.

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Man its only a bloody game you win some loose some! The 1st thing I will say is

If you don't like it quit playing Clan Battles. The 2nd thing is rather than knocking the gaming

developers suggest to them things that will lead to CVs being re implemented into Clan

Battles. AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST IS QUIT ACTING LIKE A BUNCH OF IMMATURE

PLAYER WHO WHINE WHEN THEY CAN NOT GET WHAT THEY WANT

 

 

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A DD in a CV game must stay close to the fleet. That may not be as fun as a game without a CV, but we all deal with it.

 

CVs aren't nearly as powerful when they can't pick off the lone wolfs of your fleet, and have to go through AA fire and DF consumables.

 

No one is going to tell you CVs are in a good place, not CV drivers that are noobs, not CV drivers that are unicums, and the same for noobs and unicums of DDs, Cruisers, and BBs. WarGaming is trying to rework them, but has been super slow in doing so.

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33 minutes ago, IronWolfV said:

Pirates could of been something EPIC. Instead just meh.

 

Oh that's fine, my point being is for an Arcade 18th Century sailing game, I find the talk here fascinatingly a lot like if somehow a player walked into that game and said "We should ban the rated ships" from the game. You know, the Man-o-Wars, the giant ships like the HMS Victory, let's punish players for enjoying the "easy" ships. I was drawing a comparison :P hating on the largest or most famous/infamous classes would be developer suicide.

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10 minutes ago, Beneej_Spoor said:

 

Oh that's fine, my point being is for an Arcade 18th Century sailing game, I find the talk here fascinatingly a lot like if somehow a player walked into that game and said "We should ban the rated ships" from the game. You know, the Man-o-Wars, the giant ships like the HMS Victory, let's punish players for enjoying the "easy" ships. I was drawing a comparison :P hating on the largest or most famous/infamous classes would be developer suicide.

I agree though I was more of a Frigate player. Though I only got to the mid tiers before being frustrated with some mechanics.

 

Though instead of making all types desirable, they've turned it into a s***show in this game.

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It's good that CVs are not in Clan Wars, and not 'everyone and their mother is upset' about it. A large swathe of players are quite happy about being able to play meaningful 7v7 matches.

 

A good place to look for perspective is the collection of threads on how to win in Ranked. They pretty much all recommend the same thing: when a CV enters the queue, you must exit. That is because if a CV is present everything depends on its quality, and too often, the CV is crap. Which means you lose. I follow that advice religiously.

 

Crappy CV drivers won't be a problem in Clan v Clan, mostly (though I've seem some awful CVs in clans). But the dominance of the CV on the outcome remains. 

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10 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

It's good that CVs are not in Clan Wars, and not 'everyone and their mother is upset' about it. A large swathe of players are quite happy about being able to play meaningful 7v7 matches.

I think you are right here. Someone posted a poll here and around 50% were good with carriers being excluded and 50% were upset they were excluded. Splits the players right down the middle and I would venture that is probably about right from my time in game and on the forums. With that kind of fairly even split, you should expect lots of love/hate going on about the decision. 

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4 hours ago, Lampshade_M1A2 said:

A good CV player *should* have a lot of influence in my opinion. That's why there is only 1 or 2 of them per team.

 

In a 7v7 match, CV influence is too great. The better CV will win almost every match, rendering the other players superfluous. Who wants to participate in meaningless clan war battles?

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16 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

 

In a 7v7 match, CV influence is too great. The better CV will win almost every match, rendering the other players superfluous. Who wants to participate in meaningless clan war battles?

With an entire class missing, it's meaningless now

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clan battle is nothing more than way to acquire more goodies and get bragging right.  most of the clans won't care about being top anyway.   only a few unicum clans are going to be dominating, and  while that may satisfy certain segment,  having majority of the clan being able to participate and get some reward isn't a bad thing.     if someone want to have real competition, they can always do their own league.          as mentioned already,   WG has done a lousy job of balancing and  maintaining that balance by continued addition of gimmicks.      frankly,  they wanted world of battleships and they got it.  at tier 10,  many of the  teams will be optimized unless they make a requirement where  you can only have 1 of each tier/class.      frankly, radar is OP anyway.  esp at t10  with extended scanner.  hopefully this ill be fixed as well. 

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12 hours ago, Taichunger said:

It's good that CVs are not in Clan Wars, and not 'everyone and their mother is upset' about it. A large swathe of players are quite happy about being able to play meaningful 7v7 matches.

 

A good place to look for perspective is the collection of threads on how to win in Ranked. They pretty much all recommend the same thing: when a CV enters the queue, you must exit. That is because if a CV is present everything depends on its quality, and too often, the CV is crap. Which means you lose. I follow that advice religiously.

 

Crappy CV drivers won't be a problem in Clan v Clan, mostly (though I've seem some awful CVs in clans). But the dominance of the CV on the outcome remains. 

Meaningful gameplay? Remember the tier 7 ranked season everyone hated? What do you think tier 10 CW is going to be like?

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a competently driven cv should be able to influence the match, just like a competently driven dd, or competently driven bb, or a competently driven cruiser should be able to influence the match... UNTIL, that competently driven dd is matched up against its natural predator (a cv), or that competently driven bb is matched up against its natural predator (a dd), etc etc.

 

from my observations, in matches without a cv dd's have the run of the table.  matches with a cv, dd's are the red-headed stepchild of the match.  cv's, not cruisers, are the hard counter to dd's.  the fact that the OP, obviously a competent dd main, had trouble in matches where the enemy team had a competent cv, just indicates to me that cv's are working as intended.

 

the OP complaining that a decently driven dd was countered by a decently driven cv strikes me as the same as a decently driven bb complaining that he was countered by a decently driven dd... its just whining because what happened is exactly what is supposed to happen in that situation.

 

a valid criticism of the game is complaining that 2+2 should equal 4, not 5... but the OP is complaining that 2+2 equals 4... in spite of the fact that the OP doesn't like how things turned out, everything is working as intended from what i can tell.

Edited by Shadeylark

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12 hours ago, Lampshade_M1A2 said:

A good CV player *should* have a lot of influence in my opinion. That's why there is only 1 or 2 of them per team.

a good player in any class should have a lot of influence... but this game isn't entirely based around skill.  not all classes are mirrors of each other.  each has their own strengths and weaknesses.  each one is particularly vulnerable to certain classes who are particularly good at exploiting those specific vulnerabilities.

 

the nature of rock-paper-scissors balancing is that sometimes you will have two players of equal ability pitted against each other, but because one is playing rock and the other is playing paper, the former will always lose to the latter, even though they are both equally skilled.

 

if a bb beats a dd in a one v one fight... the bb won in spite of the advantages the dd has.  if a dd wins against a cv, its in spite of the advantages the cv has.  if the dd beats the bb in a one v one, that's not something to complain about, that's exactly what was intended to happen.  if the cv beats the dd... that's not something to complain about, that's exactly what was intended to happen.  sometimes, depending on the class matchup, mechanics trump skill.  right or wrong, like it or not, that's the way the game is designed.

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24 minutes ago, Shadeylark said:

a competently driven cv should be able to influence the match, just like a competently driven dd, or competently driven bb, or a competently driven cruiser should be able to influence the match... UNTIL, that competently driven dd is matched up against its natural predator (a cv), or that competently driven bb is matched up against its natural predator (a dd), etc etc.

 

from my observations, in matches without a cv dd's have the run of the table.  matches with a cv, dd's are the red-headed stepchild of the match.  cv's, not cruisers, are the hard counter to dd's.  the fact that the OP, obviously a competent dd main, had trouble in matches where the enemy team had a competent cv, just indicates to me that cv's are working as intended.

 

the OP complaining that a decently driven dd was countered by a decently driven cv strikes me as the same as a decently driven bb complaining that he was countered by a decently driven dd... its just whining because what happened is exactly what is supposed to happen in that situation.

 

a valid criticism of the game is complaining that 2+2 should equal 4, not 5... but the OP is complaining that 2+2 equals 4... in spite of the fact that the OP doesn't like how things turned out, everything is working as intended from what i can tell.

Exactly. And looking at OP's screenie:

 

20 hours ago, NeutralState said:

 

CV hate.png

He's cherry picking because wants it to look only the bad CV's fault. I also noticed his lack of notes on the victories, which means probably those didn't have carriers.

 

Perhaps instead of whining, he should've come here asking for a competent CV to div with?

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the issue i that CV has no real counter except  another CV since it has all the initiative and rest of the ships can only react to it.   current guise of CV is nothing more than guided missile ship that does everything DD does but multiple times better    current match is setup such that if you have CV,  you basically have queen and bunch of pawns.   why I keep suggestion of having CV war mode where you have bigger map,  multiple   CVs and rest being escort.     CV in a gunfight isn't really historic or realistic anyway.  

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I want to hear dd unicum's opinions, how do they deal with CVs that completely keep them spotted, spot their torpedoes or decided to delete them outright? Do not answer - to stay close to friendly AA cruiser, that makes dds meaningless.

When in the beginning of the match I see 3 radar ships, I know what I am gonna do to overcome that challenge, but when I see a CV, all I can do is pray that he is a potato. You cannot outran or out stealth planes.

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20 hours ago, IronWolfV said:

Well I got something to say to that. Because of no carriers, no need for DFAA or AA builds at all, so get ready for the hydro/radar s***show.

 

Why are all the CV fanboys bringing up radar all the time now? 

 

Like "Well, if CVs don't matter, everyone's going to take radar, oh noes!".

 

You people do realise that radar doesn't share a slot with anything AA related, yes?

 

So stop bringing that crap up.

 

(PS: Hydro is infinitely easier to deal with than planes)

Edited by issm

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Did someone say something to me. Oh no one of importance.

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2 hours ago, IronWolfV said:

Meaningful gameplay? Remember the tier 7 ranked season everyone hated? What do you think tier 10 CW is going to be like?

People disliked tier 7 ranked for completely different reasons:

1. OP premiums - problem solved, no premiums at all

2. Smoke + Radar on one ship - problem solved, no tier 10 can do both at the same time

3. Weak tech tree cruisers- problem solved, tier 10 has some of the strongest CAs tier for tier plus only

one BB allowed

4. Heavy smoke camping - problem solved, incoming smoke changes plus two strong tech tree radar options including a radar that almost reaches 12 km. 

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