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[Flamu] Clan Battles - What A S**tshow

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1 minute ago, chewonit said:

How much weight should we put on the claim that some top clan lobbied for the exclusion of CV because they don't have a good CV player?

 

He names that as one of the many feedback mechanisms that may have led to that request. It is possible, and you may eliminate this mechanism, but the others remain. More so he's trying to make the argument robust since we cannot entirely eliminate that possibility. After all, four people said BBs are ruining the game, now only one BB a side is permitted. It's not unreasonable to expect direct feedback to have influence or some impact on design.

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Neither Flamu, Notser nor any of the other loudmouth twits who are whining their eyes out over this version of CW bothered to participate and provide feedback in the testing process.  Lots of people from lots of clans across NA, EU and Russia participated.  It was an excellent process where lots of people tested, suggested and tested some more.  WG devs did a quite excellent job of trying CW in various modes at various tiers with and without CV's and ultimately came to the conclusion that the first season will be without CV's.  

 

Personally, I think this was the right call.  It opens the map up, allows for more diverse tactical play and once the smoke changes previously discussed come into play will make CW a truly fun and engaging experience.

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1 minute ago, Pope_Shizzle said:

Neither Flamu, Notser nor any of the other loudmouth twits who are whining their eyes out over this version of CW bothered to participate and provide feedback in the testing process.

 

How can you say this for sure when WG has a long history of ignoring ST opinions? Almost all clans in NA are against CVs being removed from clan wars.

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Well considering this is the first implementation of clan battles, I still think we need to give wargaming wiggle room so that eventually we make things perfect.

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5 minutes ago, Pope_Shizzle said:

Neither Flamu, Notser nor any of the other loudmouth twits who are whining their eyes out over this version of CW bothered to participate and provide feedback in the testing process.  Lots of people from lots of clans across NA, EU and Russia participated.  It was an excellent process where lots of people tested, suggested and tested some more.  WG devs did a quite excellent job of trying CW in various modes at various tiers with and without CV's and ultimately came to the conclusion that the first season will be without CV's.  

 

Personally, I think this was the right call.  It opens the map up, allows for more diverse tactical play and once the smoke changes previously discussed come into play will make CW a truly fun and engaging experience.

 

 Easy for you to say since you are used to T10's as well as your clanmates, GG for the mid tier clans who will want to participate and their lack of experience at T10 is just an automatic harmstring for them.

 

  T8 should be enough to show skill at the CW and being able to cover most of the players game experience IMO.

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36 minutes ago, Pope_Shizzle said:

Neither Flamu, Notser nor any of the other loudmouth twits who are whining their eyes out over this version of CW bothered to participate and provide feedback in the testing process.  Lots of people from lots of clans across NA, EU and Russia participated.  It was an excellent process where lots of people tested, suggested and tested some more.  WG devs did a quite excellent job of trying CW in various modes at various tiers with and without CV's and ultimately came to the conclusion that the first season will be without CV's.  

 

Personally, I think this was the right call.  It opens the map up, allows for more diverse tactical play and once the smoke changes previously discussed come into play will make CW a truly fun and engaging experience.

Sorry I disagree. The loadouts become very few and uniform. As much hydro and Radar as possible for as long as possible, zero AA builds and some tier 10s will be more equal than others.

 

Des Moines, Moskova for cruisers.

DDs Khab/Z-53(for more hydro)

BB you can bring Yamato or Conquerer.

 

Anything else, waste of time. Come on Shizzle. You've lived CW in tanks. This limits CW, doesn't open it up. Plus 7v7? REALLY? Why not 12v12 to get more players in fight?  And claiming it's so balanced, then take out carriers and limit BBs. Yeah...no.

 

Cluster frak.

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20 minutes ago, IronWolfV said:

Sorry I disagree. The loadouts become very few and uniform. As much hydro and Radar as possible for as long as possible, zero AA builds and some tier 10s will be more equal than others.

 

Des Moines, Moskova for cruisers.

DDs Khab/Z-53(for more hydro)

BB you can bring Yamato or Conquerer.

 

Anything else, waste of time. Come on Shizzle. You've lived CW in tanks. This limits CW, doesn't open it up. Plus 7v7? REALLY? Why not 12v12 to get more players in fight?  And claiming it's so balanced, then take out carriers and limit BBs. Yeah...no.

 

Cluster frak.

 

Agreed. Sadly I am out of reputation so I have to wait until tomorrow to give you more :D

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Quote

How much weight should we put on the claim that some top clan lobbied for the exclusion of CV because they don't have a good CV player?

 

1 hour ago, Pope_Shizzle said:

Neither Flamu, Notser nor any of the other loudmouth twits who are whining their eyes out over this version of CW bothered to participate and provide feedback in the testing process.  Lots of people from lots of clans across NA, EU and Russia participated.  It was an excellent process where lots of people tested, suggested and tested some more.  WG devs did a quite excellent job of trying CW in various modes at various tiers with and without CV's and ultimately came to the conclusion that the first season will be without CV's.  

 

Personally, I think this was the right call.  It opens the map up, allows for more diverse tactical play and once the smoke changes previously discussed come into play will make CW a truly fun and engaging experience.

 

Seems like a pretty solid claim. 

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Regardless, this is all academic discussion and second guessing or armchair quarterbacking.  The decisions have been made.  You'll have to see how the first CW season goes.  Then we'll see what happens with CVs, and see what the next season brings.  Lots of opinions, of course, but no one knows for sure what's going to happen, not even WG.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Pata1985 said:

 

 Easy for you to say since you are used to T10's as well as your clanmates, GG for the mid tier clans who will want to participate and their lack of experience at T10 is just an automatic harmstring for them.

 

  T8 should be enough to show skill at the CW and being able to cover most of the players game experience IMO.

 

Having CW at tier 10 gives incentive for people to play to tier 10 and not just stop at 8.  It provides an endgame for people who have played to tier 10.  When CW started in WOT, there were very few players who had tier 10 tanks.  Clans busted their tails to get tier 10 tanks to enable them to participate meaningfully in CW.  Some of my fondest memories of WOT clan wars was loading in my tier 8 and 9 tanks with a team of other tier 8 and 9 tanks and seeing what we could do against the 10's.  Watching 8 Lowe's climb the hills on Sand River still amuses me to this day.  

 

Good players who congregate together are always going to beat average players, regardless of the tier.  If you lack tier 10 experience, well, this is the time to get it.  You never get better if you don't play against the best.  Mid skill clans are going to have plenty of games against each other.  What I will say about competitive ships is that a group of people who play together and coordinate together can beat more skilled players who aren't quite as into team play and like to pub stomp.  I was on a team in one of the first seasons of Supremacy League.  We had arguably the most talented group of deep purple players I've ever seen on one team.  We kind of laughed off practicing or strategizing and went into our first matches doing everything on the fly.  We got absolutely steamrolled by a couple teams of greens who had been working with each other and putting effort into their team play.  It was an absolute eye opener for me.

 

In the end, CW is not about everyone getting a participation trophy.  It's about groups of people who want to put in the time and effort to play with each other and get good.  If that's not your cup of team, you can still queue up for randoms and get your participation trophy via solo ranked.

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44 minutes ago, IronWolfV said:

Sorry I disagree. The loadouts become very few and uniform. As much hydro and Radar as possible for as long as possible, zero AA builds and some tier 10s will be more equal than others.

 

Des Moines, Moskova for cruisers.

DDs Khab/Z-53(for more hydro)

BB you can bring Yamato or Conquerer.

 

Anything else, waste of time. Come on Shizzle. You've lived CW in tanks. This limits CW, doesn't open it up. Plus 7v7? REALLY? Why not 12v12 to get more players in fight?  And claiming it's so balanced, then take out carriers and limit BBs. Yeah...no.

 

Cluster frak.

 

My experience says otherwise.  There are going to be some ships that are fairly useless.  But you are going to be shocked out of your mind when some smart folks start thinking outside the box and coming up with comps that are going to wreck the "standard" setup that a lot of people will bring.  

 

I don't agree with 7 on 7 in principle.  I think that is too limiting.  I also recognize that WOWS doesn't have the playerbase to support larger teams while leaving the game mode open to smaller groups.  I think that until WOWS has 20,000 people at a time online, that 7 on 7 is probably the best way to leave the game mode accessible to people.

 

Carriers stifle gameplay.  At tier 10 they perma spot everything and force people to ball up into AA bubbles.  Flanking and repositioning is impossible.  Cross torping is impossible because planes are everywhere.  Carriers cause a turtle mentality until one of the CV's makes a mistake and then the game is over.  Games become about who has the best CV player.  Everyone else is just watching Starcraft for 10 minutes until one of the CV's screw up.  

 

I have lived tanks CW.  It was incredibly fun for a long time.  Comps will change based on the map and the ships available.  I hope that WG doesn't limit the game to tier 10's.  Meaning if you want to bring a Fletcher, you should be able to.  Or if you have a guy who has advanced no further than the Missouri he can bring it.  That was some of the most fun I had in the early days of CW before everyone had full stables of tier 10's.  Some of the stuff we pulled off with 7's, 8's and 9's was the most fun I've ever had gaming. 

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1 hour ago, NeoRussia said:

 

How can you say this for sure when WG has a long history of ignoring ST opinions? Almost all clans in NA are against CVs being removed from clan wars.

 

What makes you think that ST's are the only people involved in testing things?  I'm not going to get into specifics, but there were hundreds of players involved in testing clan wars battle mechanics.  And where is the scientific poll where most clans are against removing CV's?  I'd like to see that.  I'd even be willing to look at an unscientific one.  

Edited by Pope_Shizzle
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13 minutes ago, Pope_Shizzle said:

 

Having CW at tier 10 gives incentive for people to play to tier 10 and not just stop at 8.  It provides an endgame for people who have played to tier 10.  When CW started in WOT, there were very few players who had tier 10 tanks.  Clans busted their tails to get tier 10 tanks to enable them to participate meaningfully in CW.  Some of my fondest memories of WOT clan wars was loading in my tier 8 and 9 tanks with a team of other tier 8 and 9 tanks and seeing what we could do against the 10's.  Watching 8 Lowe's climb the hills on Sand River still amuses me to this day.  

 

Good players who congregate together are always going to beat average players, regardless of the tier.  If you lack tier 10 experience, well, this is the time to get it.  You never get better if you don't play against the best.  Mid skill clans are going to have plenty of games against each other.  What I will say about competitive ships is that a group of people who play together and coordinate together can beat more skilled players who aren't quite as into team play and like to pub stomp.  I was on a team in one of the first seasons of Supremacy League.  We had arguably the most talented group of deep purple players I've ever seen on one team.  We kind of laughed off practicing or strategizing and went into our first matches doing everything on the fly.  We got absolutely steamrolled by a couple teams of greens who had been working with each other and putting effort into their team play.  It was an absolute eye opener for me.

 

In the end, CW is not about everyone getting a participation trophy.  It's about groups of people who want to put in the time and effort to play with each other and get good.  If that's not your cup of team, you can still queue up for randoms and get your participation trophy via solo ranked.

 

Well said pope

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33 minutes ago, Rocketpacman said:

 

 

Seems like a pretty solid claim. 

In what capacity, other than he has cited literally nothing; never mind that the players that enjoy Tier Xs . . . are those quote, "loud mouths"

 

Just now, Fog_Battleship_NCarolina said:

 

Well said pope

 

I give up, this is pointless.

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11 minutes ago, Pope_Shizzle said:

Having CW at tier 10 gives incentive for people to play to tier 10 and not just stop at 8.  It provides an endgame for people who have played to tier 10.  

I must admit, this is well reasoned logic. Personally I quit grinding ships and focused more on captains because it seemed pointless to go beyond tier 8 (for me). The only other reason that made sense to me was so I wouldn't be up tiered and that seemed a bit pathetic. Clan wars does give incentive to push up assuming the rewards are worthwhile. 

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16 minutes ago, Pope_Shizzle said:

 

My experience says otherwise.  There are going to be some ships that are fairly useless.  But you are going to be shocked out of your mind when some smart folks start thinking outside the box and coming up with comps that are going to wreck the "standard" setup that a lot of people will bring.  

 

I don't agree with 7 on 7 in principle.  I think that is too limiting.  I also recognize that WOWS doesn't have the playerbase to support larger teams while leaving the game mode open to smaller groups.  I think that until WOWS has 20,000 people at a time online, that 7 on 7 is probably the best way to leave the game mode accessible to people.

 

Carriers stifle gameplay.  At tier 10 they perma spot everything and force people to ball up into AA bubbles.  Flanking and repositioning is impossible.  Cross torping is impossible because planes are everywhere.  Carriers cause a turtle mentality until one of the CV's makes a mistake and then the game is over.  Games become about who has the best CV player.  Everyone else is just watching Starcraft for 10 minutes until one of the CV's screw up.  

 

I have lived tanks CW.  It was incredibly fun for a long time.  Comps will change based on the map and the ships available.  I hope that WG doesn't limit the game to tier 10's.  Meaning if you want to bring a Fletcher, you should be able to.  Or if you have a guy who has advanced no further than the Missouri he can bring it.  That was some of the most fun I had in the early days of CW before everyone had full stables of tier 10's.  Some of the stuff we pulled off with 7's, 8's and 9's was the most fun I've ever had gaming. 

Agree to disagree Shizzle. DDs will simply be marginalized by Des Moines and Moskova. DDs can run around till they are blue in the face, teams will turtle up anyways around hydro/radar and have it running most the match. Which makes maneuvering s*** anyways.

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3 minutes ago, Taylor3006 said:

I must admit, this is well reasoned logic. Personally I quit grinding ships and focused more on captains because it seemed pointless to go beyond tier 8 (for me). The only other reason that made sense to me was so I wouldn't be up tiered and that seemed a bit pathetic. Clan wars does give incentive to push up assuming the rewards are worthwhile. 

 

At some point, they are going to release a global map, like in World of Tanks, where there are real rewards like gold and whatnot.  There are going to be rewards in this iteration like increased XP, increased credits, etc that only clans who participate in CW are going to have access to.  So, while the benefits aren't quite as lucrative, they will be there for people to take advantage of.  I think if people stopped forming lynch mobs at the word of every loudmouth who makes a youtube video and enjoyed the game for what it was, people would have a lot more fun.  

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1 minute ago, IronWolfV said:

Agree to disagree Shizzle. DDs will simply be marginalized by Des Moines and Moskova. DDs can run around till they are blue in the face, teams will turtle up anyways around hydro/radar and have it running most the match. Which makes maneuvering s*** anyways.

 

My experience says otherwise.  But we'll see what happens when the game mode goes live.

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I do like the idea of clan wars being at t10, since without it the only incentive to having t10s is having fun in the occasional match, then going lower tiers to pay for it.  But not allowing CVs and severely limiting BBs is just wrong, so is only having it being 7v7.  It basically says screw you to the CV players.  The "Year of the CV" was basically for selling premium CVs, not fixing the problems with them.  They do have till the end of the year to make CVs right, but at this point it probably won't happen.  As an FYI, I don't play CVs, but I have had an interest in some point playing them, been waiting for the "fixes" though.

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It's not about handing out participation trophies, it's about members of this community being told they can't participate PERIOD - at least not in the class of ship they've devoted considerable time, effort, and most likely money, to become good in. And from my own limited efforts trying out carriers, I daresay it's probably the hardest class to become good at. Essentially, WG has told a portion of their playerbase that because they've done such a poor job of balancing ship classes and game mechanics over the past 2 years, that they're simply going to take the easy way out and simply prohibit them from playing the ship class they prefer in Clan Battles, instead of actually fixing their bloody game.

For my perspective, in so many words, WG has basically told CV mains "you're not part of our community". I don't blame any of them that take this as the last straw and exit stage left.

 

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6 minutes ago, Pope_Shizzle said:

 

My experience says otherwise.  But we'll see what happens when the game mode goes live.

Come on Shizzle think about it. 3 Des Moines or Moskova with SI and premium consumable radar then toss in the time extender with radar, out of 20 minutes you can keep up constant radar for 13 of them. Hydro almost as long.

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2 minutes ago, why_u_heff_to_be_mad said:

I have a hard time listening to whiny videos, even if I agree with some of the points. 

 

For me it depends on the context and whether or not it's capturing a point that's true or at least partially substantiated with statistics or publicly available information.

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12 minutes ago, why_u_heff_to_be_mad said:

I have a hard time listening to whiny videos, even if I agree with some of the points. 

I have trouble listening to Flamu, period.  I understand that he's a good player, etc.  Not saying he's bad, but his manner is like nails on a chalkboard to me.

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