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HazardDrake

Make USN DDs, armed with the 5"/38, great again - Possible Solutions

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HazardDrake    899

Before patch 6.3, the USN 5"/38 was relatively balanced. Yes, the arcs were crap and the fire chance was low. However, the bloom only went to just under 10k. You could knife fight caps well and if you needed to disengage you only had to break contact with the DD you were fighting. If it was late game and you were on 150 health you could at least stealth torp and harass/reset capping enemies by stealth firing.

 

6.3 came and 5"/38 armed DDs got... Absolutely nothing to buff them. It has been months since 6.3 and USN DDs struggle to be anything except torpedo-boats. Gun builds have completely disappeared. EVERYONE is running the stock fire-control module to reduce their bloom, contrary to WG's stated desire of module upgrades to be actual upgrades.

 

5"/38 armed DDs are simply not competitive as gunboats, or even as jack-of-all-trades, and have been badly power crept by new DD lines and changes to game mechanics.

 

How bad are upper tier USN DDs doing? Now that Warships.Today has given their hamster another pellet, I can check against my pre 6.3 screencaps. The 2-week solo stats show;

 

T6
The poor Faragut. Went from 29,300 games to 11,000. Over a 60% drop in population.
T7
Sims was one of the hardest hit, due to it's long main gun range now meaning it is seen from the moon if it even thinks about firing its guns. It went from 13,300 games played to 7,500 games.
Mahan went from 31,700 to 15,100. Over a 50% drop in population
T8
Benson going from 36,700 games to 19,800. A drop of nearly 50%.
T9
The Fletcher, often claimed to be the gem of the line, has gone from 34,000 to 28,200. Nearly 18% drop on the BEST USN DD
T10
Gearing is the only ship to buck this trend, but gun builds are completely gone. 22,900 before and 26,900 now.

 

Other nations and classes of ships have mostly sen increases or stable populations. (The Yorck is a notable exception, it's average games played having dropped by about 50% since 6.3.)

 

The critical problem is that 5"/38 armed ships now have the same bloom as ships with MUCH flatter shooting guns that have almost equivalent RoF, resulting in a much higher effective DPM. My Udaloi will have two or three salvos into a Gearing before he has even found the range. A quick change of speed and course will completely throw off his aim while my guns shoot flat enough that I can keep up with any changes he makes. Not to mention I ahve a much higher chance of setting them on fire.

 

What can be done about this? I have several ideas.

 

Obvious option, Reduce the bloom time:

WG has rejected this idea. They claim they tested it, but nobody believes them. Moving on.

 

Other options.

Flatten arcs:

Increase the MV of the 5"/38 to be close to that of other nations. I'm not in favor of it because all it does is make all the ships reskins of each other. BORING!!!

 

Reduce dispersion:

I think this idea has lots of potential. While I could yell HISTORICAL ACCURACY about the USNs radar and mechanical computer fire control system to justify reducing dispersion, I'm not going to. I'm going to yell GAME BALANCE instead. The 5"/38 has horrifically bad arcs compared to every other ship a 5"/38 armed DD can see, yet nothing meaningful to compensate it for that.

 

Yes the reload is SLIGHTLY lower, 3.3 on my Fletcher vs 4.4 on my Udaloi with equivalent dispersion. However, with the arcs and dispersion, a Udaloi will win a gunfight with a Gearing, let alone a Fletcher, every time unless Udaloi eats a torpedo or the Fletcher has friends.

 

To what level do we reduce dispersion? Given the arcs of the 5"/38, I would say a 50% reduction in dispersion would be reasonable, though we could start with 40% depending on what other buffs are given. I will make a comparison with the VMF DDs of the same Tier, using skills and modules to get equivalent ranges.

 

Benson:
Range - 11.6k
Dispersion - 102m
New Dispersion - 51m

 

Kiev:
Range - 11.1
Dispersion - 99m

 

Fletcher
Range - 11.8k
Dispersion - 103m
New Dispersion - 52m

 

Udaloi
Range - 12.1
Dispersion - 106m

 

Gearing
Range - 11.1k
Dispersion - 98m
New Dispersion - 48m

 

Grozovoi
Range - 11.0
Dispersion - 97

 

Switch the shells used:

The 5"/38 uses "127mm HE Mk32" for its HE shell. It's low filler weight is the reason that USN DDs only get a 5% fire chance. The problem is that this, unlike the HE-46 and HE-42 that VMF DDs use, is NOT an HE shell. The Mk32 is an ARMOR PIERCING shell with a bursting charge.

 

See here: https://maritime.org/doc/ordnance/pg035.htm

 

Other ships, like the Indianapolis and Arizona, use a proper HE shell for their 5"/25 guns, in this case the AAC Mk36, which has a HE filler of 7.25 pounds. This shell could be used as an AA shell or as a HE shell against light ships and shore targets. It also has a 9% chance of fire in-game.

 

https://maritime.org/doc/ordnance/pg038.htm

 

So, what should the 5"/38 armed destroyers be using for an HE shell? My limited research seems to indicate that the AAC Mk31 or AAC Mk34. The document linked indicates that the Mk31 was originally fitted with a base fuse, making it suitable as an HE shell. By the time of the publication, 1947, the fuses are obsolete and so only the VT fuses are used by then. The Mk34 is the replacement that has a base fuse. For practical purposes, the shells are identical, The Mk21 weighing 55.12 pounds with 7.25 pounds of Explosive D.

 

By comparison the HE-46 shell in the VMF destroyers weighs 73.6 pounds and has a filler weight of 7.89 pounds. I am unsure of the filler in the HE-46 and how it compares to the filler in the Mk34.

 

So, we have 2 choices:

 

Replace the "127mm HE Mk32" for the AAC Mk31 or Mk34. Same damage as before and increase the fire chance to 8-9%.

 

Increase the HE pen of USN DDs from 1/6 caliber to perhaps 1/3? Since they are firing an AP shell they should get more penetration.

 

Reduce the main gun range:

 

Hear me out on this. I got this idea while playing the Harekaze. The Harekaze has a stupidly short gun range of 9.4k, but as I played it I found that this was an advantage. It let me use pre 6.3 tactics because the gun range is basically what the bloom on ships like this were like pre-6.3. I could easily get one ship inside my max range, pop a few salvos into them, and zip out again and re-stealth. Or I could murder a DD and be re-stealthed as soon as I killed them.

 

You may ask, what about the people who run AFT on their Sims so they can miss ships at 15k? A very good question.

 

The new fire control system, rather than being a "stock" and an "Upgraded" version will consist of a variety of modules with a variety of ranges. Players will then be free to choose which that they want to run. The "top" fire control will still have the same max range as before, but players will be able to choose shorter ranges if they wish.

 

I will use the Fletcher as an example.

 

Current
Stock: 11.8k
Upgrade: 12.9k, 22,500 XP, 1,850,000 silver.

 

New
Stock: 8.4k
Upgrade: 1 9.9k, 7,500 XP, 1,250,000 silver.
Upgrade: 2 11.4k, 7,500 XP, 1,250,000 silver.
Upgrade: 3 12.9k, 7,500 XP, 1,250,000 silver.

 

Yes 8.4k is stupid short and puts you in range of all sorts of radar ships, but nobody with any brains is using the 5"/38 to take on a Des Moines at 10k. It will let USN DDs become more effective cap contesters as well as hit-and-run masters, dipping into range, unleashing several salvos, and zipping out of range again and re-stealthing.

 

Give 5"/38 armed DDs the option to fire from "spotter plane" mode:

Attach it to one of the unused consumable keys and when pressed it swaps the view to spotter plane view, except without a plane. When pressed again it cycles back to normal mode. If you want, or have to, make it a consumable with a 1 minute active time and a 1 minute cooldown, then give them 4-5 charges of it. This will make it easier for 5"/38 armed DDs to fire from behind islands as well as shoot at and hit ships in smoke.


I think a combination of these ideas will let the USN 5"/38 armed DDs be relevant without being overpowered and add some additional flavor to them.

 

Note, these are only gun related changes. I think there are other things that can be done to help USN DDs be made more competitive, but those are for another thread.

 

Let me know your thoughts and thank you for reading this far.

Edited by HazardDrake
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HazardDrake    899
1 minute ago, NeutralState said:

What will IJN DDs get? 

No clue. I don't play them much. Go figure out some options and start a thread on it.

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NeutralState    354
2 minutes ago, HazardDrake said:

No clue. I don't play them much. Go figure out some options and start a thread on it.

There's your problem. USN DDs already dominate knife fight against an entire nation's destroyers. And now you want them to be stealthier when firing. Making them from powerful to over powered. The nerf happened for a reason. Just check USN DD's win rates. They are nuts.

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DoctorMcDerp    98

IJN needs a buff slightly more, and I am against removing the arcs, seeing as how good USN DDs are at simply sitting on one side of an island and raining hell down on people who can't fire back.  If anything, change the terrible shell velocity, not the arc, as the arc does work in favor of USN DDs if you know how to use it.

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HazardDrake    899
16 minutes ago, NeutralState said:

There's your problem. USN DDs already dominate knife fight against an entire nation's destroyers. And now you want them to be stealthier when firing. Making them from powerful to over powered. The nerf happened for a reason. Just check USN DD's win rates. They are nuts.

flat,1000x1000,075,f.jpg

 

Go back under your bridge please. You are asking me to solve every game balance problem in ONE thread. Not gonna happen. Go do your own work on how to fix IJN DDs.

 

Tech tree IJN DDs have higher winrates over USN DDs in Tiers 10, 8, 7 and 6. The USN DD solo stats are near bottom of the charts in every tier except T9, and Fletcher is still second.

 

IJN DDs are the ONLY nations DDs that it can dominate in cap fights. EVERY nations DDs dominate IJN DDs in a cap fight. Russian and German DDs do it even better than USN ships, gun wise.

Edited by HazardDrake
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Russian DDs (and I use the term DDs loosely) don't cap fight well.  Their turrets turn to slowly. 

USN knife fights better than any simply because they can keep their guns on target.  They dominate knife fights. 

 

USN also gets way better smoke. 

 

I think DDs could use some love, but I don't think DPM or alpha is the way to go. I think agility - accelerate faster, lose less speed in turns. I think that would improve life

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NeutralState    354
1 minute ago, Destroyer_Suzukaze said:

Russian DDs (and I use the term DDs loosely) don't cap fight well.  Their turrets turn to slowly. 

USN knife fights better than any simply because they can keep their guns on target.  They dominate knife fights. 

 

USN also gets way better smoke. 

 

I think DDs could use some love, but I don't think DPM or alpha is the way to go. I think agility - accelerate faster, lose less speed in turns. I think that would improve life

 

I rarely see a Russian DD out turned by USN DD just due to their sheer speed and acceleration. They can circle USN just fine. The guns are also better and with a HP advantage, a heavy HP advantage, USN DD can't win a knife fight against same tier Russian DDs 1v1.

Edited by NeutralState

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_WaveRider_    421

Difficult situation as I think addressing bloom duration would be a better start (and help DDs across the board):

 

DDs 10 secs, CAs 15 secs, BBs 20 secs. Only problem there is the Russian DDs that play like Cruisers (how I wish WG would stop merging the ship types).

 

I also understand NeutralStates pov regarding IJN DDs as well (especially with the PA DDs coming soon and having the kind of specs many IJN DD players will be saying wth WG!? at).  Most classes have a 'reasonable' balance compared to other nations ships, but IJN DDs - well you know they have been shafted when BB mains confess pity towards them. :Smile_Default:

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too tired to make a long post but i will make a few comments.

from what i seen, the RU turret traverse isn't that bad.  reason being is that you are firing at range, which makes it easier to keep guns on target.   if you want to fight a DD, charge at them, and then turn away when they fire.  they are now spotted for 20 seconds, and thanks to your better guns, can beat them to death.   the turrets may take a few seconds to turn, but you can make up for it easily. you can really crap on US DDs with ease past 7km.(where US DDs effective range ends) 

I find the US DDs guns about as good as some of the IJN guns.   When i play my IJN DDs, i can do a # against other DDs.   especially if you are kiting away, where it is easier for you to hit them than you.   Sure, that US DD you are fighting shoots faster, but kiting, i can land 3-4 shots for a 1-2k damage.  maybe even 2k+ with a good salvo.  they have to land 3-4 shots constantly to do the same amount, which isn't as easy.  IJN DDs may not be DD hunters with their guns, but they can still pack a punch.  Trading evenly in a gun fight is not something to scoff at when you are not a gun boat vs a gun boat.    The IJN could use some love too, but that is for another thread.

one of the biggest buffs you can give to the gearing would be removing that stupid 50mm plate that the khaba gets with something else that the gearing can pen.  better pen for US DDs in general would be an interesting buff.  you would have to crunch the #s to see if it lets you pen stuff you couldn't before.  extra fire chance would be an interesting buff as well. 

 

the shorter spotted duration based on gun size would be a logical buff for a lot of ships, especially for DDs.  why they decided against it, idk. 

tbh, i think US DDs should be the best in close in knife fights.  Germans should win said fight with smoke and hydro combo(what a great combo to have on a DD), but lose outside of it.  RU should win long range, but lose close range.  IJN should overall avoid fighting DDs head on, but use their guns for kiting or in support.   They should be torp boats first. 

the longer gun range does have its uses though.  i still make use of it on my fletcher.   I was out shooting a DM the last time i played it.   Not bad for raining shells on BBs either. 

 

i will say, i would be careful with buffing US DDs too much or in certain ways.  They are one of the best support lines in the game.(despite WG attempt to make them less useful in CW)   Make them too good and they can do it all.  Only if doing support roles actually paid off in this game outside of maybe making your chance of winning higher.(imagine getting XP and credits for smoking up teammates or using DF to interfere with a drop!!  such heresy.)

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I personally think that US DDs should get their shell velocity buffed. This would allow them to keep the sky-high arcs, but these would be less of a weakness when an enemy shifts course. This would allow more consistent hits, while still allowing an enemy some chance to throw off a fixed aim.

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Grizley    1,281
54 minutes ago, Destroyer_Suzukaze said:

Russian DDs (and I use the term DDs loosely) don't cap fight well.  Their turrets turn to slowly. 

USN knife fights better than any simply because they can keep their guns on target.  They dominate knife fights. 

 

USN also gets way better smoke. 

 

I think DDs could use some love, but I don't think DPM or alpha is the way to go. I think agility - accelerate faster, lose less speed in turns. I think that would improve life

 

KM makes USN useless at cap bullying.

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BlailBlerg    246

They mucked up USN (and IJN) DDs really bad. It really sucks.  

 

Big bump for good ideas

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b101uk    23

you can argue a 5"/38 armed DD is always going to have a worse dispersion than the same 5"/38 gun mounted on a cruiser or larger, as cruisers etc provide a much more stable platform that pitches and rolls with the sea less and more slowly, and has a greater likelihood of the 5"/38 gun being aimed by optical sights, due to the turrets &/or target directors being situated higher, whereas a DD would have to change to radar sooner, due to the turrets/target directors being situated much lower vs the curvature of the earth thus the effective horizon.

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SireneRacker    1,434
3 hours ago, JediMasterDraco said:

I personally think that US DDs should get their shell velocity buffed. This would allow them to keep the sky-high arcs, but these would be less of a weakness when an enemy shifts course. This would allow more consistent hits, while still allowing an enemy some chance to throw off a fixed aim.

 

4 hours ago, HazardDrake said:

Flatten arcs:

Increase the MV of the 5"/38 to be close to that of other nations. I'm not in favor of it because all it does is make all the ships reskins of each other. BORING!!!

 

Thing is that the muzzle velocities are one of the few factors in this game that are 100% historical. Some fun with navweaps told me this

                       in-game        historical

Kagerou         915 m/s        915 m/s

Fletcher         792 m/s         792 m/s

Leberecht      830 m/s         830 m/s

Z-23 (15cm)   835 m/s         835 m/s

Z-46               830 m/s         830 m/s

Akizuki           1000 m/s       1000 m/s

Gnevny          870 m/s          870 m/s

 

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twitch133    607

I don't understand what this obsession over the ability to "knife fight" is. Because knife fighiting is not an advantage, it is one of the dumbest tactics for a DD in the game.

 

Why you ask?

 

Simple. A knife fight is always an hp trade at best. Even with survivability expert on, you have at most, enough HP for one good knife fight. 

 

That at is not ok. That makes it a bad tactic. In order to truly carry enough weight to win games, you need to always be trading up.

 

Going into a cap and trading a DD for a DD is not trading up. Please, stop obsessing over this crappy tactic like it is a good thing.

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twitch133    607
13 minutes ago, SireneRacker said:

 

 

Thing is that the muzzle velocities are one of the few factors in this game that are 100% historical. Some fun with navweaps told me this

                       in-game        historical

Kagerou         915 m/s        915 m/s

Fletcher         792 m/s         792 m/s

Leberecht      830 m/s         830 m/s

Z-23 (15cm)   835 m/s         835 m/s

Z-46               830 m/s         830 m/s

Akizuki           1000 m/s       1000 m/s

Gnevny          870 m/s          870 m/s

 

 

They could mess with the drag coefficients to make the USN shells keep speed longer, and other nations bleed it faster, to put them all on a little bit more even keels.

Edited by twitch133

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SireneRacker    1,434
Just now, twitch133 said:

They could mess with the drag coefficients to make the USN shells keep speed longer, and other nations bleed it faster, to put them all on a little bit more even keels.

 

That is a possibility, but muzzle velocities themselves should not be touched at all. I personally would add some drag to the Russian DDs, just because I hate them.

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Has anything mechanically actually  happened to the USN 5" except for stealth/detection changes?

 

ive come back from a year long absence and have been completely wrecking face still with Sims, Farra and Fletcher. The guns still feel the same. 

Edited by why_u_heff_to_be_mad

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NeutralState    354
9 minutes ago, twitch133 said:

I don't understand what this obsession over the ability to "knife fight" is. Because knife fighiting is not an advantage, it is one of the dumbest tactics for a DD in the game.

 

Why you ask?

 

Simple. A knife fight is always an hp trade at best. Even with survivability expert on, you have at most, enough HP for one good knife fight. 

 

That at is not ok. That makes it a bad tactic. In order to truly carry enough weight to win games, you need to always be trading up.

 

Going into a cap and trading a DD for a DD is not trading up. Please, stop obsessing over this crappy tactic like it is a good thing.

 

Are you saying DD vs DD is a HP trade that benefit neither involved? How dare you! we don't tolerate that kind of comment on this forum. Don't you know? DD vs DD is totally skill! Just make your opponent miss, simple! A skilled DD captain never gets hit and will always land all their shells on target! There's a super high skill ceiling involved! Take your HP trade heresy outa here!

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IronWolfV    6,626

Personally I'd like the see the option of replacing the 5/38s with the 5/51s like you can with a/b hulls of Nicholas.

 

Since Farragut and up to with stock, B hull(more guns) then C hull is the 5/38 AA option I'd like to see from Farragut to Fletcher, B hull option go tonthe 5/51 option.

 

Sure you take a RoF loss, but you get this in return:

960mps velocity, sure lighter shell but much flatter arc.

 

So the trade off is you lose RoF and a bit of shell damage for a much better arc and higher velocity. Sure at the end of the trip the 38 is faster, but the 51 isn't sub orbital.

 

That's how I'd do it. For Gearing let her have the Ability to swap out for a pair of dual 5/54s and the B turret be converted to say a pair of 3/50s for AA defense.

 

I know completely non historical idea, but it would help the USN.

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Big_Spud    2,284

Only one on this list that I 100% agree with is the fire chance buff, but I think it should be from 5 > 7 instead of 5 > 9.

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6 hours ago, JediMasterDraco said:

I personally think that US DDs should get their shell velocity buffed. This would allow them to keep the sky-high arcs, but these would be less of a weakness when an enemy shifts course. This would allow more consistent hits, while still allowing an enemy some chance to throw off a fixed aim.

Shell velocity doesn't need buffing, their arcs are made artificially high by the game engine. ~70-100 m/s difference in muzzle velocity (MV) between US and other guns doesn't make them into mortors. WG must have made the ballistic coefficient (BC) really low causing them to loose speed faster. I don't mind them having lower MV (historically accurate) but the artificial BC is stupid. With a more realistic BC they would have flatter arcs but still wouldn't be as good as their German and fantasy Russian counterparts.

Edited by SavageTactical
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IronWolfV    6,626
42 minutes ago, SavageTactical said:

Shell velocity doesn't need buffing, their arcs are made artificially high by the game engine. ~70-100 m/s difference in muzzle velocity (MV) between US and other guns doesn't make them into mortors. WG must have made the ballistic coefficient (BC) really low causing them to loose speed faster. I don't mind them having lower MV (historically accurate) but the artificial BC is stupid. With a more realistic BC they would have flatter arcs but still wouldn't be as good as their German and fantasy Russian counterparts.

Actually 5/38 really did go orbital. At max range of 17 KM the guns could really do, their downward arc was almost 60 degrees. Even at 13 KM we're talking 24-26 deg angle.

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twitch133    607
3 hours ago, SireneRacker said:

 

That is a possibility, but muzzle velocities themselves should not be touched at all. I personally would add some drag to the Russian DDs, just because I hate them.

 

I really think this is the best idea. While I do not want all of the DD's to be completely equal in gun power, they need to be a little bit more level.

 

I think the IJN guns are in a good place for that, they have a high-ish initial velocity and they seem to retain it well. Plus they have stupid high alpha. Even in a USN DD, I still fear them. They have much better stealth than I, and they can easily hit me with 2-6 shells every salvo, ripping off 2-4k every time. They may not have the same top DPM I do, but with the higher shell velocity and much higher alpha, the effective DPM is not that much different.

 

Soviets, they really need a lower coefficient. The laser beams they fire are a little bit ridiculous. Considering how easy it is even to hit another maneuvering VMF DD at range with them? They are just way too easy to use and give up nothing.

 

USN.... They need a higher coefficient. The initial velocity is really not that bad, but, after a few km, they seem to just fall from the air.

 

3 hours ago, NeutralState said:

 

Are you saying DD vs DD is a HP trade that benefit neither involved? How dare you! we don't tolerate that kind of comment on this forum. Don't you know? DD vs DD is totally skill! Just make your opponent miss, simple! A skilled DD captain never gets hit and will always land all their shells on target! There's a super high skill ceiling involved! Take your HP trade heresy outa here!

 

 

Any skilled DD driver will never take on another DD of any nation on even terms. That means knife fights are a no go. 

 

The only time I will take on another DD, is if they are considerably lower HP than I. (I am talking being able to finish them off before they can get 2k damage on me. That is the most HP I am usually willing to trade on that one. But it is highly situational.)

 

Or, I have teammates close by... preferably division mates that will drop whatever they are doing to get a DD off the map. Edit.... Oh, and a smoke ready to drop off detection if need be after the fight. 

Edited by twitch133

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