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GuntherPrein

Its getting way to easy to shoot DD

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14 hours ago, Snargfargle said:

 

I still have trouble with AP, especially that from large battleships, being so weak against DDs. I don't care if the round explodes or not, a 16-inch shell, even if it hits nothing else of significance will put a 16-inch hole in the bottom of your destroyer. Two or three of those and you will sink like a rock, explosion or not. In my opinion, a hull penetration caused by plunging fire should cause flooding in unarmored ships.

Well IRL or a sim that would be the case but in a game that would drop DD survivability like a rock. In balance terms DD's are supposed to be the paper to the BB's rock by letting rock beat paper you destroy that balance. I'm mean even with several overpens you can chop off 25 to 50 percent of a DD's health anyway.

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You guys are just awesome shots.

I have trouble hitting those little ships, especially when they're moving.

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8 minutes ago, slokill_1 said:

You guys are just awesome shots.

I have trouble hitting those little ships, especially when they're moving.

I count it as a lucky shot if I hit a DD past about 7 km with anything but Soviet railguns (i.e. like Molotov).

OTOH, if I get a hydro spot on a DD at 4km, I better be able to hit him at that range in a cruiser.  If you're in a BB, start dodging torps and see what your secondaries can do, as  you won't get much help from your main battery, unless you manage to have your guns aimed the right way.  This situation came up last night, and my Friant (French T4 CL) came up aces, and fried him with HE at about 5 km before he could get turned to torp me.  Even then, I got the hits, but he was also dodging my teammates as well, so that allowed me to get in close while he was too busy dodging to line up a good torp spread on me.  So, I got the xp and the damage credit, but it was a team effort.

Edited by mavfin87

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I have my North Carolina spec'd out for secondaries and it has a 7.6 km range. If I can get a DD within that range it's most oftentimes a dead DD. Last game I killed a DD while my turrets were shooting at another ship on the other side.

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Few things overall from some of the replies..

 

Back in the day, BBs would choose what shell type. AP was for everything but DDs and HE was for nothing other that DDs. Many here have questioned why BBs are the only class that doesn't need to change between the two. WG changed this need because (ill say this as nice as i can) they wanted to make BB play easier because BBs are their main source of income. Many things have been changed in the game because of that reason and for that Ship Type.

 

Many have said since the update that the changed BB AP towards DDs that there was no way BB AP could do a great deal of dmg to DDs at any angle, and at any distance. I mentioned that in my earlier comment speaking from my knowledge from then until now. It's pretty much known at this point, but not long ago BB mains would say otherwise. Now, you can see it anywhere and everywhere.

 

DD population was/is on the decline and it was said the some of the "main" reasons for this was because of BB AP, Gun Blooms, and Radar. It's been said that WG isn't interested in backing away from any of those except BB AP. 

 

You could say that BBs take too long switching back and forth between AP and HE being an issue. I'll say that it is an issue, however packing everything into one shell type doesn't make much sense in the form of balance. We have Commanders skills, and upgrades that will help with all of that, but many BBs don't choose to use them.

 

I can say the same (skills/upgrades) dealing with fire.

 

I can also say the same thing for Cruisers not using RPF that hunt DDs. This point will be made during Clan Battles, fyi.

 

Main issue here is BBs should use HE against DDs. Its can potentially cause more dmg (see RN), and it would also help Cruisers in the process. Having a BB switch ammo would give them more breathing room while a BB is switching back and forth.

 

Ill also throw out there the whole Khab issue. Other Line mains like to complain about this one ship because it's the most performing DD out there. It's just that "one" ship that they can point and say, ah-ha!! Technically, the thing should be considered a light Cruiser, but I'll leave it at that. Just think if the Khab was nerfed into oblivion, what next would they point at? It'll always be something to try to throw into the argument. 

 

WG has started to lay off of nerfs to DDs. It's been said they've been over nerfed and an upswing is inc. IMO, i believe this is because of DD player retention and now we have scrubs running DDs predominantly. I also believe that somewhere around last season of Ranked, a good many other Mains started running DDs because they felt they could do better than the majority of Scrubs that are running them now. They found out that the core issues that DDs were complaining about were actually true. I've seen die hard Captains against DDs change their views since Ranked, and It's something I've enjoyed seeing. Not from satisfaction they were wrong, but that it's known to them and they can see things from the standpoint of game balance.

 

The majority of those that are against DDs hardly, to never run them. It's always smart to check someone's stats when they are arguing a point btw. It's easy to jump on board with others when they yell about issues within the game. Thats why when you post about any issues, the ones who reply first usually takes the topic in one direction (usually negative), but after a while others start to comment with clearer heads and are more interested in balance than Shiptypeism.

 

It's overall funny when you think about all of this though. You and your team depend on every Ship Type out there, why would you want to shoot yourself in the foot by messing with those you depend on? Like DDs, everyone's all smiles when you have a good Captain and he uses his tools to better the team. Peeps want to cut their hands off and get mad when they dont perform. You can't have just the other teams ships nerfed peeps, it doesn't work that way.

 

Karma isn't important, but I hover around 100. I main in DDs and second in Cruisers, so predominantly those are from DD play. I have no doubt in my mind that they're happy that one battle, but when the next one starts, the hate had already come back to them.

 

Rambling, my bad...

 

Edited by Wulfgarn
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My opinion as a BB main.

 

First off, contrary to what some DD players (and BB players) believe, I can hit you. If you're broadside, you'll eat a bunch of overpens. If you try to angle, chances are you'll eat a couple pens and be dead. If you WASD, that will make it a lot harder for me. Unless you're really close, then I'll probably knock off half your HP no matter what you do. Of course, that doesn't help me when I eat 4 torps 5 secs later and die. If you're at range, and weaving, I'll maybe get the occasional overpen. Most of the time, I'll shoot someone else.

 

If I have to shoot you, and know I'll have to shoot you for a while, I'll switch to HE. 16HE really wrecks DDs. And after a few HE hits to the guns, the detonation chance is pretty good. Also, it wrecks your torpedoes.

 

WASD is great for dodging torps. DDs best bet is to either stealth torp, or stay at range and spam (I really hate Khabarovsks)

 

Do I think AP pens are a huge problem, no. Flamu is really good, but he tends to look at things from a super-unicum perspective. Most people don't land multiple AP shots on DDs on a regular basis. However, they could be reduced. I do agree that randomly taking a whole bunch of damage isn't fun.

 

However, don't remove it completely. BBs do need a way to do decent damage to DDs every once in a while. If a BBs only recourse to a DD charging them down is a couple of overpens, instead of a decent chance of a really punishing hit, that's not good. Charging a BB should have consequences. You might get him, but he should at least be able to make you pay for it somehow, instead of merely overpening a few time. Yes there's HE, but there is no reason why DDs should be completely immune to AP. Reduce the frequency of major AP hits, but don't make them go away. Also, reducing the pen frequency isn't easy, you have to play with some core mechanics that are already a little wonky, and apply to everything else in the game as well. Also, if you reduce the utility of AP anymore, BBs might start loading HE more. What are you going to do then, cry for a HE nerf?

 

Finally, nerfing dispersion might not help the DDs (and BB accuracy is already pretty bad). It's pretty much chance that a AP round pens, and more dispersion wouldn't change that.

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13 hours ago, ReddNekk said:

Like that's a surprise? FYI; BB AP is supposed to be powerful in order to... Drumroll please.... Pen BB's massive armor. And... Since BB AP does hella damage to BBs, why are thin hided DDrivers amazed that is does a lot of damage to DDs?

DDs are small, fast, very maneuverable targets that are damn hard for BBs, or anyone else for that matter, to hit so stop sniveling DDrivers.

Huh they are hard to hit??? you got 2 things  right bro they are fast and maneuverable but hitting them is easy as #$CK I am saying this because I see it every game I play Ive seen Unicum DD drivers get smashed to pieces from BB at 16 km out because a plane flew by them on way to rearm or some ship behind an island ten km out has radar

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4 hours ago, Kyralee said:

I want to provide this info again.  People seem to think that XX class is always the most played when they are looking to nerf or buff something.  I pulled these stats out of Warships today so they are a little low since that site has been wonky the last couple of weeks; however I did this exact same thing a couple of months ago and the results are the same.

 

Total games played over the last two weeks T4-T10, all ships.

BB: 73,993

CA/CL: 64,869

DD: 48,316

CV: 8,630

 

As you can see DD are not the most played class, battleships and cruisers are more played than destroyers.

Warshipstoday NA stats are broken. If you noticed those numbers are incredibly low as many ship stats don't even exist, for example the only tier 10 DD even on there are Shima and Gearing.

 

From the EU server for tier 9/10

 

382000 games in DD

422000 games in BB

409000 games in CA/CL 

I never said DD is most played, I said the class is "fine" as in healthily played and common, and it is, and they are. People like to make it sound like the class is going extinct or hardly represented. Well by those stats DD are represented on a 1v1 basis only ~10% less than a BB. The difference for CA/CL is even less yet people spout such stupidity as "World of Battleships". Once the NA stats are corrected you'll see a similar trend which is pretty much in line with everyones experience actually playing the game.

 

Edited by ksix

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6 hours ago, Snargfargle said:

Those 16-inch shells weigh as much as cars and have a huge amount of momentum, whether they explode or not. The 8-inch shells my unit fired in the Army could penetrate fortified bunkers so I can only guess the damage a 16-inch shell would cause. Such a shell is going to punch a hole through anything in its path, taking out all sorts of vital components before it eventually punches through the hull, and it doesn't have to be coming straight down from above to penetrate below the waterline either. Holes aren't always patchable, don't believe everything you see in the movies.

 

That's just it though. A fortified bunker is going to slow the shell down a lot, and cause a large energy transfer. Shoot that same shell through a sheet of 1/2" plywood, and you'll just get a hole.

 

Try it at home with a pellet gun at close range. You'll do a lot more damage to a tin can than a piece of paper.

 

You did mention a hole in the bottom of the boat, not just below the waterline. There's a difference. If the hole's on the bottom, you seal the compartment, the air can't escape, and keeps more water from coming in. If the hole is on the side below the waterline, the compartment floods, but shouldn't go any further. And that's if, as you say, you can't patch the hole. If you can patch the hole, even better, you don't need to seal the compartment. And the whole ship isn't chock full of vital equipment, which would slow the shell enough to detonate it. 

Edited by Skpstr

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A great way to throw off a BBs aim is to slam the brakes when they fire on you from far away. If their aim is good then they should miss. If their aim is crap, then they might hit unfortunately. Sometimes driving in a straight, fast line causes them to miss.

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47 minutes ago, ksix said:

Warshipstoday NA stats are broken. If you noticed those numbers are incredibly low as many ship stats don't even exist, for example the only tier 10 DD even on there are Shima and Gearing.

 

From the EU server for tier 9/10

 

382000 games in DD

422000 games in BB

409000 games in CA/CL 

I never said DD is most played, I said the class is "fine" as in healthily played and common, and it is, and they are. People like to make it sound like the class is going extinct or hardly represented. Well by those stats DD are represented on a 1v1 basis only ~10% less than a BB. The difference for CA/CL is even less yet people spout such stupidity as "World of Battleships". Once the NA stats are corrected you'll see a similar trend which is pretty much in line with everyones experience actually playing the game.

 

I quoted your exact post and it said that DD are one of the most commonly played ship classes.  They are in fact 3rd out of 4 total.  Lets not mention that CV, the 4th most commonly played class has a 1-2 limit on their presence in a game.  You could also say that DD are one of the least played ship classes, 2nd only to CV.  You are also cherry picking stats by only showing T9 & T10.  The game does exist outside of that bubble.  In fact I found more DD being played at T9 and 10 when I pulled stats.  More BB were at the mid tiers between 5&7 and I saw more Cruisers around T6&8.  By looking at the entire tier spread as evenly as possible you get a better sense of population balance.

 

Quote

Games Played

BB = 597,633

CA/CL = 754,394

DD = 430,829

CV = 103,097

French Cruisers = 243,398 of the 754,394 total cruiser games

As you can see there were clearly more games played in Cruisers than any other class.  The current combat missions for the French line are surely inflating these numbers some, although we can't be sure if cruiser players are playing more French cruisers or BB and DD players are playing French cruisers.  CV are also hard to compare due to there only being 1 or 2 per team due to matchmaking rules.

This is the post I made on July 28th about this exact same subject.  The stats were pulled from the NA server on that date and include all ships from T4-T10.  Still you can see that DD is the lowest played class besides CV and in those stats by a fairly decent margin.

 

The way people word their posts creates a great deal of context.  That context can also be misinterpreted.  No where in my post did I mention an opinion on class balance or viability but your response to the post sure seemed like I did.  I think most DD are fine although some need to be worked on.

 

Back to the OPs post.  I don't feel that DD are any more easier to shoot than before.  There is however a lot more opportunities to shoot one now.  The way that OWSF was removed has made it much easier for DD to be spotted and to stay spotted and that in turn gives you many more chances to fire on and hit a DD.

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20 hours ago, GuntherPrein said:

allright wargaming can we get a little more dispersion maybe or could we get original scaling for DD so its not quite so easy to delete them from 16 km away I got no probs hitting them with my Atago at max range or my Hindenberg from 18 km

wish I was as good as you

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I have no problems getting away from gunfire in my DDs, unless I'm within 8km, or being shot at by three or more ships. I must be OP.

 

Lazy players want the game to take care of them, and their complaints end up making things worse for everyone.

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1 hour ago, Kyralee said:

I quoted your exact post and it said that DD are one of the most commonly played ship classes.  They are in fact 3rd out of 4 total.  Lets not mention that CV, the 4th most commonly played class has a 1-2 limit on their presence in a game.  You could also say that DD are one of the least played ship classes, 2nd only to CV.  You are also cherry picking stats by only showing T9 & T10.  The game does exist outside of that bubble.  In fact I found more DD being played at T9 and 10 when I pulled stats.  More BB were at the mid tiers between 5&7 and I saw more Cruisers around T6&8.  By looking at the entire tier spread as evenly as possible you get a better sense of population balance.

Because they are one of the most common. 10% (from my numbers) is nothing. I don't consider such a swath as 4-10 a fair representation of where players stick for a few reasons such as lower damage output, lower captain skills (no concealment makes a big difference) and you're adding in a much greater amount of games from Cruiser and BB premiums which far outweigh DD premiums especially at lower tiers (4-7) where, of course, DDs are going to be heavily outweighed. 

Those tier 8/9/10 DDs didn't come out of thin air. Fact is it is indeed one of the most commonly played classes very close to the other 2. If you want to nitpick then yes, its still technically the least played, but if I say 91 and you say 100 we're still talking about pretty much the same quantity. You quoted me after all, I didn't quote you. What I was targeting was "DD's future in this game at its current state is very uncertain" when the numbers say otherwise. 

Edited by ksix

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I can see a whole lot here that three or so 16-inch shells could wreak havoc on, disabling and sinking the ship without even exploding.

 

fletcher_cutaway.jpg

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1 hour ago, ksix said:

Because they are one of the most common. 10% (from my numbers) is nothing. I don't consider such a swath as 4-10 a fair representation of where players stick for a few reasons such as lower damage output, lower captain skills (no concealment makes a big difference) and you're adding in a much greater amount of games from Cruiser and BB premiums which far outweigh DD premiums especially at lower tiers (4-7) where, of course, DDs are going to be heavily outweighed. 

Those tier 8/9/10 DDs didn't come out of thin air. Fact is it is indeed one of the most commonly played classes very close to the other 2. If you want to nitpick then yes, its still technically the least played, but if I say 91 and you say 100 we're still talking about pretty much the same quantity. You quoted me after all, I didn't quote you. What I was targeting was "DD's future in this game at its current state is very uncertain" when the numbers say otherwise. 

Except that part were there is this elephant in the room known as BB overpopulation.  

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14 minutes ago, Snargfargle said:

I can see a whole lot here that three or so 16-inch shells could wreak havoc on, disabling and sinking the ship without even exploding.

 

fletcher_cutaway.jpg

The DDE 413 Samuel B. Roberts fought Japanese capital ships at point blank range for an hour taking 40 hits (through and through) before the Kongo found her engine room. If the shells don't hit something solid and explode the ship still fights

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1 hour ago, Destroyer_Suzukaze said:

The DDE 413 Samuel B. Roberts fought Japanese capital ships at point blank range for an hour taking 40 hits (through and through) before the Kongo found her engine room. If the shells don't hit something solid and explode the ship still fights

 

I'm not saying a DD couldn't survive non-detonating large ordinance hits but that they definitely have the potential to sink one. If a 16-inch shell hits a boiler or anything explosive it's goodby DD. With all that momentum, an AP shell hitting a torpedo warhead would be like a very large version of a kid hitting a firecracker with a hammer -- boom!

 

However, it's interesting to take a look at the actual destroyer losses in WWII. Most of the US destroyers lost were lost to aircraft, and most of those to kamikazes.

 

A couple of names familiar to this game came up too: the USS Pillsbury was sunk by the IJN cruisers Takao and Atago. 

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24 minutes ago, Snargfargle said:

 

I'm not saying a DD couldn't survive non-detonating large ordinance hits but that they definitely have the potential to sink one. If a 16-inch shell hits a boiler or anything explosive it's goodby DD. With all that momentum, an AP shell hitting a torpedo warhead would be like a very large version of a kid hitting a firecracker with a hammer -- boom!

 

However, it's interesting to take a look at the actual destroyer losses in WWII. Most of the US destroyers lost were lost to aircraft, and most of those to kamikazes.

 

A couple of names familiar to this game came up too: the USS Pillsbury was sunk by the IJN cruisers Takao and Atago. 

 

When the Kongo hit the engine of the Sammy B with her 14 inch rifles it ripped a 40 foot hole in her side.

 

Destroyers are not prone to detonations - more battleships detonated than destroyers in WW2 (only 7) for all that DDs were in more battles

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9 hours ago, Snargfargle said:

I can see a whole lot here that three or so 16-inch shells could wreak havoc on, disabling and sinking the ship without even exploding.

 

fletcher_cutaway.jpg

 

I also see a lot there that wouldn't sink the ship, as well as extensive compartmentalisation.

 

And it's represented in game. You do pen damage instead of overpen, and module damage, when you hit important things.

 

Also, we ARE playing a game, and DDs need some artificial help if they're going to be a viable and equally attractive choice for players to use.

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