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GuntherPrein

Its getting way to easy to shoot DD

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DD's future in this game at its current state is very uncertain. There are too many easy 1 button counters to DD. DD's survivability is based on remain unseen. DD's contribution to the battle is based on surprise and basically luck.

 

As more higher tier cruisers populate the server, and more ships equipped with detections, AND as the player population getting better. DDs' life is going to get harder.

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I think the stats reflect that 'some' DDs are easy to kill - However, wait for those that start crying out 'but what about the Khab!'

 

I think it reflects where many believe DDs should be when they say the Khab is OP. It is compared to other DDs but not compared to other tier Xs:

 

1. Harder to kill - yep frustrating! It operates a little further back from the front line meaning the enemy has to come further forward to get it in range (and get hit themselves). With speed to help evade and great guns, the Khab is the DD to survive in if you are a DD driver! (Has consistantly been at the top for DD damage and survival).

2. High WR - you are joking now aren't you? Look at point 1. It murders other DDs; it survives better than other DDs in general; of course if it survives it's likely to be on the winning side hence a high WR.

 

But what about the other DDs, generally poor survivability and poor damage, not surprising with 11 radar ships and 41 ships with hydro that a tier 7 DD could come up against! Add your RPF and vigilance skills, or a resonable screening force (DDs/spotters and fighters) and the detection rate of torps begin to mean nothing; everyone either knows where torps are coming from or can see them from a good distance. Don't forget CV influence as well (although I do not like the exclusion of CVs from CWs).

 

And yes, Soshi brought up a valid point when it comes to dodging. The closer you are to the front lines the faster rounds come in at you and the longer it takes you to get out of range. Dispersion spreads shots nicely, and where do you dodge to? Rarely is it one ship firing at one time. Multiple rounds from ships, at multiple incoming angles, at multiple times. And for god sake don't fire - that equates to a 20 second turkey shoot with the bloom effect! Lol

 

However, as stated this is not across the board and I don't believe DDs are in a bad place, 'some' just need to be tweaked a little. Being fair, that could be said of many CAs, BBs and CVs too! I think the small difference between them (the classes), being the DDs inability to soak up as much punishment in general. :Smile_honoring:

Edited by _WaveRider_
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1 hour ago, Wulfgarn said:

Take a look at almost any replay/vid on YouTube. It's littered with proof how OP BB AP is.

Like that's a surprise? FYI; BB AP is supposed to be powerful in order to... Drumroll please.... Pen BB's massive armor. And... Since BB AP does hella damage to BBs, why are thin hided DDrivers amazed that is does a lot of damage to DDs?

DDs are small, fast, very maneuverable targets that are damn hard for BBs, or anyone else for that matter, to hit so stop sniveling DDrivers.

Edited by ReddNekk

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22 minutes ago, ReddNekk said:

Like that's a surprise? FYI; BB AP is supposed to be powerful in order to... Drumroll please.... Pen BB's massive armor. And... Since BB AP does hella damage to BBs, why are thin hided DDrivers amazed that is does a lot of damage to DDs?

DDs are small, fast, very maneuverable targets that are damn hard for BBs, or anyone else for that matter, to hit so stop sniveling DDrivers.

I've yet to see any ship outrun a bullet! :Smile_teethhappy: DDs aren't that small (especially when levelling multiple guns at them) and the HP/Damage ratio isn't quite balanced atm.

 

Personally I would change the bloom times for the different classes to address the damage taken and....  drumroll please... remove torpedo armour belts from BBs, it's a game and it high time that when a torpedo actually hits a target (6-10% chance on average) it does damage.

 

 

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2 hours ago, NeutralState said:

DD's future in this game at its current state is very uncertain. There are too many easy 1 button counters to DD. DD's survivability is based on remain unseen. DD's contribution to the battle is based on surprise and basically luck.

 

As more higher tier cruisers populate the server, and more ships equipped with detections, AND as the player population getting better. DDs' life is going to get harder.

 

DDs are fine, they're one of the most common ships played because of the huge damage potential and they generally decide the game. Once one team loses their DDs they generally just lost the match.
 

Quote

 

allright wargaming can we get a little more dispersion maybe or could we get original scaling for DD so its not quite so easy to delete them from 16 km away I got no probs hitting them with my Atago at max range or my Hindenberg from 18 km out and it gets quite stupid to lose in a knife fight you just dominated other DD because an N.Carolina hits you with armor piercing from 16 km out and deletes you from near full health. Will you maybe look at armor piercing make it so friggin BB have to change ammo at least

 

To be blunt, you're talking out of your rear saying that hitting a DD at 16km is easy. Even for the fastest shells in the game that's guessing where the DD is going to be 18 seconds later. If you're hit at that range the player shooting you either guessed incredibly well or you literally went in a straight line the entire time. The real question is why a DD is spotted at 3x its detection range to begin with. Solve that problem and you solve the former. Anyone refuting this is a moron and not worth acknowledging. 

Secondly your Hindenberg and Atago stats are nothing great, you barely sink HALF a ship a game, so where is all this DD deletion you claim to be doing going on? Ironically the best counter to them is CVs of which you are one of a few prominent players of. Why you didn't suggest nerfing the vision detection from CVs instead is no great mystery but hints at slight bias innuendo from you on a class that you hardly play as your BB games make up a paltry 5% of your total games.

 

Hard counters to DDs are CV spotting, other DD, and Cruisers in that order. If a battleship kills a DD the DD player was either focused and lost by weight of shear numbers or, more commonly, f'd up. Whining for WG to coddle you because you don't like being punished when you f up is not going to make for a better game.

Edited by ksix

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29 minutes ago, ksix said:

 

DDs are fine, they're one of the most common ships played because of the huge damage potential.
 

To be blunt, you're talking out of your rear saying that hitting a DD at 16km is easy. Even for the fastest shells in the game that's guessing where the DD is going to be 18 seconds later. If you're hit at that range the player shooting you either guessed incredibly well or you literally went in a straight line the entire time. The real question is why a DD is spotted at 3x its detection range to begin with. Solve that problem and you solve the former. Anyone refuting this is a moron and not worth acknowledging. 

Secondly your Hindenberg and Atago stats are nothing great, you barely sink HALF a ship a game, so where is all this DD deletion you claim to be doing going on? Ironically the best counter to them is CVs of which you are one of a few prominent players of. Why you didn't suggest nerfing the vision detection from CVs instead is no great mystery but hints at slight bias innuendo from you on a class that you hardly play as your BB games make up a paltry 5% of your total games.

DDs are ok, but certainly aren't fine when it comes to damage. Every ship has massive damage potential in this game - to which the game mechanics affect those damage potentials into actual damage results. DDs prop up the bottom of every tier (V-X) for damage and in many cases for survivability.

 

I agree with your long shot (16km) hypothesis; it is more likely the long bloom effect (after you have destroyed the DD you've been fighting) that is allowing for ships (closer) to take advantage.

 

The average for Hindenberg kills is 0.9, Atago is 0.6-7 (what he has), however a single person's stats aren't the ones we need to look at, the overall stats for DD survival would be better used when talking about....DD survival. Personally I don't like the idea of limiting more the CV plane detection levels; I'd prefer every ship being able to do a reasonable amount of damage through AA (or something that stops a sqn sitting over a DD indefinitely with no real risk).

Edited by _WaveRider_

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4 hours ago, GuntherPrein said:

LOOL do you think I am driving straight?? I hit DD turning no probs infact I like it when they do cause it seems easier once you know their turning radius because they slow down during turn, I get hit the least driving straight with speed boost on

Most DDs don't drive in a straight line, though they are so predictable with their movements that it still easy to do lots of damage :)

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6 hours ago, _WaveRider_ said:

I think the stats reflect that 'some' DDs are easy to kill - However, wait for those that start crying out 'but what about the Khab!'

 

I think it reflects where many believe DDs should be when they say the Khab is OP. It is compared to other DDs but not compared to other tier Xs:

 

1. Harder to kill - yep frustrating! It operates a little further back from the front line meaning the enemy has to come further forward to get it in range (and get hit themselves). With speed to help evade and great guns, the Khab is the DD to survive in if you are a DD driver! (Has consistantly been at the top for DD damage and survival).

2. High WR - you are joking now aren't you? Look at point 1. It murders other DDs; it survives better than other DDs in general; of course if it survives it's likely to be on the winning side hence a high WR.

 

But what about the other DDs, generally poor survivability and poor damage, not surprising with 11 radar ships and 41 ships with hydro that a tier 7 DD could come up against! Add your RPF and vigilance skills, or a resonable screening force (DDs/spotters and fighters) and the detection rate of torps begin to mean nothing; everyone either knows where torps are coming from or can see them from a good distance. Don't forget CV influence as well (although I do not like the exclusion of CVs from CWs).

 

And yes, Soshi brought up a valid point when it comes to dodging. The closer you are to the front lines the faster rounds come in at you and the longer it takes you to get out of range. Dispersion spreads shots nicely, and where do you dodge to? Rarely is it one ship firing at one time. Multiple rounds from ships, at multiple incoming angles, at multiple times. And for god sake don't fire - that equates to a 20 second turkey shoot with the bloom effect! Lol

 

However, as stated this is not across the board and I don't believe DDs are in a bad place, 'some' just need to be tweaked a little. Being fair, that could be said of many CAs, BBs and CVs too! I think the small difference between them (the classes), being the DDs inability to soak up as much punishment in general. :Smile_honoring:

 

That's why Russian DD's are considered agile cruisers with low hit points in exchange for no citadel. Sure they've been granted the DD specification due to their size but they share very little similarities beyond that. That's why when talking about sweeping changes to DD's (for better or for worse), they are often excluded in the conversation. 

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10 hours ago, GuntherPrein said:

could we get original scaling for DD

 

Why won't this myth die.

 

Ship scaling is correct relative to each other.

 

It's camera perspective distortion that makes the scale look off.

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10 hours ago, Snargfargle said:

 

I still have trouble with AP, especially that from large battleships, being so weak against DDs. I don't care if the round explodes or not, a 16-inch shell, even if it hits nothing else of significance will put a 16-inch hole in the bottom of your destroyer. Two or three of those and you will sink like a rock, explosion or not. In my opinion, a hull penetration caused by plunging fire should cause flooding in unarmored ships.

 

Except there really isn't plunging fire, other than ranges where hitting the DD is pretty much all luck. 

 

And 3 1.33' holes that don't hit anything vital aren't going to make a 300' ship "sink like a rock". Even if on the very bottom of the ship, if you seal the compartment, air pressure will limit the flooding.

 

 

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9 hours ago, ReddNekk said:

Like that's a surprise? FYI; BB AP is supposed to be powerful in order to... Drumroll please.... Pen BB's massive armor. And... Since BB AP does hella damage to BBs, why are thin hided DDrivers amazed that is does a lot of damage to DDs?

DDs are small, fast, very maneuverable targets that are damn hard for BBs, or anyone else for that matter, to hit so stop sniveling DDrivers.

Maybe for you but not for me in the least I hit them very easily from 10 km out and further any thing under I can take at least 50% health from 1 salvo which I am fine with you should be hit easily and take punishiment from ships that focus you at 10 km or under if spotted.

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1 hour ago, Skpstr said:

 

Except there really isn't plunging fire, other than ranges where hitting the DD is pretty much all luck. 

 

And 3 1.33' holes that don't hit anything vital aren't going to make a 300' ship "sink like a rock". Even if on the very bottom of the ship, if you seal the compartment, air pressure will limit the flooding.

 

 

Those 16-inch shells weigh as much as cars and have a huge amount of momentum, whether they explode or not. The 8-inch shells my unit fired in the Army could penetrate fortified bunkers so I can only guess the damage a 16-inch shell would cause. Such a shell is going to punch a hole through anything in its path, taking out all sorts of vital components before it eventually punches through the hull, and it doesn't have to be coming straight down from above to penetrate below the waterline either. Holes aren't always patchable, don't believe everything you see in the movies.

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7 hours ago, joris92 said:

Most DDs don't drive in a straight line, though they are so predictable with their movements that it still easy to do lots of damage :)

yep you are right

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Just now, GuntherPrein said:

Maybe for you but not for me in the least I hit them very easily from 10 km out and further any thing under I can take at least 50% health from 1 salvo which I am fine with you should be hit easily and take punishiment from ships that focus you at 10 km or under if spotted.

Cruisers take a lot of damage from BBs in one salvo too, especially with their huge citadels, (which DDs don't have) and you don't see endless snivel posts from CA players about it.

No matter what you're driving, you going to take damage when you're hit. And the bigger the shell(s) the more damage. Deal with it DDrivers, everyone else does without whining about it.

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1 hour ago, issm said:

 

Why won't this myth die.

 

Ship scaling is correct relative to each other.

 

It's camera perspective distortion that makes the scale look off.

really was it a myth? I just remember DD being a lot smaller in the periscope view about a year and a half ago then suddenly they just seemd huge after one of the 5. something patches your prob right though you know the game a lot more than me issm and thanks for not listening to the cry babys on our team last week was hilarious you got top of team I came in third and whole game our team told us we don't know how to DD LOOL

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2 minutes ago, ReddNekk said:

Cruisers take a lot of damage from BBs in one salvo too, especially with their huge citadels, (which DDs don't have) and you don't see endless snivel posts from CA players about it.

No matter what you're driving, you going to take damage when you're hit. And the bigger the shell(s) the more damage. Deal with it DDrivers, everyone else does without whining about it.

Umm I do see a lot of snivel post from cruisers the only class I don't see any snivel post from is BB cause their drivers are too retarded to type is my only guess

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12 hours ago, GuntherPrein said:

allright wargaming can we get a little more dispersion maybe or could we get original scaling for DD so its not quite so easy to delete them from 16 km away I got no probs hitting them with my Atago at max range or my Hindenberg from 18 km out and it gets quite stupid to lose in a knife fight you just dominated other DD because an N.Carolina hits you with armor piercing from 16 km out and deletes you from near full health. Will you maybe look at armor piercing make it so friggin BB have to change ammo at least

UMbADnu.jpg

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9 hours ago, ksix said:

DDs are fine, they're one of the most common ships played because of the huge damage potential and they generally decide the game. Once one team loses their DDs they generally just lost the match.

I want to provide this info again.  People seem to think that XX class is always the most played when they are looking to nerf or buff something.  I pulled these stats out of Warships today so they are a little low since that site has been wonky the last couple of weeks; however I did this exact same thing a couple of months ago and the results are the same.

 

Total games played over the last two weeks T4-T10, all ships.

BB: 73,993

CA/CL: 64,869

DD: 48,316

CV: 8,630

 

As you can see DD are not the most played class, battleships and cruisers are more played than destroyers.

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11 minutes ago, Kyralee said:

I want to provide this info again.  People seem to think that XX class is always the most played when they are looking to nerf or buff something.  I pulled these stats out of Warships today so they are a little low since that site has been wonky the last couple of weeks; however I did this exact same thing a couple of months ago and the results are the same.

 

Total games played over the last two weeks T4-T10, all ships.

BB: 73,993

CA/CL: 64,869

DD: 48,316

CV: 8,630

 

As you can see DD are not the most played class, battleships and cruisers are more played than destroyers.

wow, almost 2x the amount of BBs, but thats not too shocking.

Lets have a moment of silence for CVs.

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13 hours ago, Snargfargle said:

 

I still have trouble with AP, especially that from large battleships, being so weak against DDs. I don't care if the round explodes or not, a 16-inch shell, even if it hits nothing else of significance will put a 16-inch hole in the bottom of your destroyer. Two or three of those and you will sink like a rock, explosion or not. In my opinion, a hull penetration caused by plunging fire should cause flooding in unarmored ships.

Fine.

 

At the same time, since we're talking about injecting realism, your 16-inch shells will now have about a 1-3% hit ratio, instead of the 28-35% you're used to, in order to better reflect reality.

 

Torpedoes will now mostly sink you in one hit, with a chance of only leaving you crippled dead in the water. Also, some torpedoes will be basically undetectable due to their propulsion system.

 

Damage repair parties will be removed from the game, to better reflect the fact that you simply couldn't really repair torpedo/bomb/shell gashes in the middle of the ocean, nor really rebuild sections of the ship that were ravaged by fire.

 

Aircraft carriers will be able to deploy all their planes in one wave, with as many as 60-70 attack aircraft coming up against you at a single time in higher tier battles (in case of there being one CV in the battle). Enjoy the 20-30 torpedoes being air launched against you.

 

 

 

 

Do you begin to see what the problem is when you start injecting some forms of realism (that you like or favor your play style), but not others (that are disfavorable to you or your play style)?

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