Deep-Water Torpedo Discussion

[AtlanticRim]

What are your thoughts on deep water torpedoes? (Disclaimer: Not a DD main, but still know most of the tactics and strategies)

I personally think they will be interesting, but very situational. There goes the opportunity to launch torps at destroyers and light cruisers. I also don't think they would be useful in area denial either. However, with increased damage to battleships and probably aircraft carriers, these destroyers will rely even more on suprise sneak attacks than other destroyers. Maybe a tactic would be traveling with another Japanese destroyer or French cruiser to provide regular torpedo attacks, while you both pull off suprise attacks on big battleships or aircraft carriers.

I also sorta want to see them on Russian cruisers. Russian torps only have the range to be last-ditch effort, so they may or may not be a good thing for them.

[Ensign_Cthulhu]

Notser had a vid up today indicating that the only immune class would be destroyers; everybody else would be vulnerable. If anyone knows better, please do fill me in.

 

I think this will be a mixed blessing, and that those who eagerly take them on will change their minds when in the heat of combat they try to torp US or Russian destroyers bearing down on them with guns blazing, only to get wiped out. My long-term prediction is that they will eventually  become a module or a captain skill rather than something which is invariably associated with a ship. I have already seen someone raise the point that the Graf Zeppelin's torpedo bombers will be armed with them, and what the hell happens when the GZ is left alone versus destroyers and doesn't have any dive bombers?

[Admiral_Thrawn_1]

Yeah I will be sticking with Normal Torps because far too much of the time I am using Torps to strafe enemy smoke for the DDs and quite often have t them.

[AtlanticRim]

6 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

Notser had a vid up today indicating that the only immune class would be destroyers; everybody else would be vulnerable. If anyone knows better, please do fill me in.

Hmm. Hadn't heard that part before. Thanks for that bit of info. They may be a bit better for area denial after all (but you would still have to make sure there were no DDs around).

[InvalidKey]

8 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

what the hell happens when the GZ is left alone versus destroyers and doesn't have any dive bombers?

 

[Herr_Reitz]

GZ has pretty ferocious secondaries i seem to recall... 

[Herodotus4]

46 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

I have already seen someone raise the point that the Graf Zeppelin's torpedo bombers will be armed with them, and what the hell happens when the GZ is left alone versus destroyers and doesn't have any dive bombers?

Well, the GZ has the same secondaries as a bismark

[Admiral_Thrawn_1]

11 minutes ago, Herodotus4 said:

Well, the GZ has the same secondaries as a bismark

Your joking I hope!? 

[Herodotus4]

10 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Your joking I hope!? 

No, it is the exact same secondaries. IIRC they are actually slightly better because all of them fire HE

[AtlanticRim]

If the Graf Zep has those killer secondaries, then really, deep water torpedo bombers are all you need on her to be a battleship killin' machine without having to worry about fending off DDs late game.

If your really concerned about DDs attacking Graf Zep, then you could possible run a secondaries-ish captain build like you might use on the Essex or other high tier US carriers.

[Admiral_Thrawn_1]

1 hour ago, Herodotus4 said:

No, it is the exact same secondaries. IIRC they are actually slightly better because all of them fire HE

I thought all Secondaries fired HE and only IJN had some AP mixed in with the HE Secondaries, I could be wrong though lol.

[AtlanticRim]

1 hour ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

I thought all Secondaries fired HE and only IJN had some AP mixed in with the HE Secondaries, I could be wrong though lol.

No, your right. Only a couple of IJN BBs have AP secondaries. The rest fire HE, even on British cruisers (that is a common misconception).

[Admiral_Thrawn_1]

10 hours ago, AtlanticRim said:

No, your right. Only a couple of IJN BBs have AP secondaries. The rest fire HE, even on British cruisers (that is a common misconception).

Which are the 2 IJN BBs have the AP Secondaries?

[AtlanticRim]

After scanning the wiki for a while, four IJN ships have AP secondaries

Kongo (V)

Fuso (VI)

Amagi (VIII)

Izumo (IX)

[bigalow87]

Ishizuchi also has 16 152's that only fire AP rounds....they are not that useful at that tier...

[Umikami]

On ‎9‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 3:14 PM, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

and what the hell happens when the GZ is left alone versus destroyers and doesn't have any dive bombers?

someone is going to feel very foolish

[SurpriseMotherTrucker]

On 9/29/2017 at 5:50 PM, AtlanticRim said:

What are your thoughts on deep water torpedoes? (Disclaimer: Not a DD main, but still know most of the tactics and strategies)

I personally think they will be interesting, but very situational. There goes the opportunity to launch torps at destroyers and light cruisers. I also don't think they would be useful in area denial either. However, with increased damage to battleships and probably aircraft carriers, these destroyers will rely even more on suprise sneak attacks than other destroyers. Maybe a tactic would be traveling with another Japanese destroyer or French cruiser to provide regular torpedo attacks, while you both pull off suprise attacks on big battleships or aircraft carriers.

I also sorta want to see them on Russian cruisers. Russian torps only have the range to be last-ditch effort, so they may or may not be a good thing for them.

 

Pan-Asian DD's - Looking at the current ship stats tier II-VI are similar to Anshan and tier VII-X are similar to Lo Yang. Low tier your gun velocity is near 900 m/s with one actually breaking 900 so you will have decent arcs and the longest reload down there is 5 seconds at the tier VI (carbon copy of Anshan). High tier your velocity drops to under 800 m/s so they will have lofty USN arcs but your reload is 3-3.34 seconds. So now you stick Deep Water torps on them ..... Well you basically have Benson (Yes I know Benson doesn't have deep water torps). Like with Benson you will use your guns and brawl with DD's but your torpedoes will be little use. Unlike Benson you can use your stealth to ambush capital ships with your torpedoes as they look pretty good where Benson's are just too slow to be effective with any certainty. I can see tier II-VI suffering a little bit because their torpedoes can't counter DD's and the turrets are REALLY slow like Anshan slow. The other thing low tier will suffer is no counter to smoke. I heard a rumor that they may have Radar but I suspect that is will be like the German line and only the higher tiers will get it. Again this is mostly data off the wiki pages so who knows how accurate it will be when released. Needless to say I will be playing them and we will see how it goes.  

[Ensign_Cthulhu]

On 30/09/2017 at 0:35 AM, AtlanticRim said:

No, your right. Only a couple of IJN BBs have AP secondaries. The rest fire HE, even on British cruisers (that is a common misconception).

This is interesting, because after all, the secondaries on many British cruisers (the Fiji, Belfast, Edinburgh especially) are the Black Swan primaries.

[NoCoGaming3645]

Well, unless the DWT do something to address the very low hit rate of torps in general, they're pretty much useless over existing torps.

Torpedo damage isn't an issue with torps. It's getting them to land in the first place, and the last year+ has been dedicated by WG to making this less and less likely.

Until WG addresses that fundamental problem, this is just lipstick on a pig. As another posters said elsewhere, this falls directly in line with WG's institutional obsession with new features and never bothering to go back and look to see how older ones are fundamentally broken (and, you know, just FIX them).

[SurpriseMotherTrucker]

10 minutes ago, EAnybody said:

Torpedo damage isn't an issue with torps. It's getting them to land in the first place, and the last year+ has been dedicated by WG to making this less and less likely.

 

Do you play DD's? Do you understand DWT concept? The reason why torpedoes don't hit is "you suck" or "they can see them before they hit" DWT torpedoes have a low detection, other then all but Khab so if you can't hit it's all you. 

[NoCoGaming3645]

Actually, yes, I play DDs a lot. And I'm familiar with what DWT will do.

Torpedoes have well under 10% hit rate, most hovering in the 6-8% hit rate, according to the latest NA Server stats. It's certainly NOT all me, and that's just an ad hominem fallacy, anyway.  The answer to a problem is not "Become Unicum". The answer is fix the problem so that the AVERAGE player isn't hurt by the issue.

Because DWT will STILL absolutely be detectable by DDs and aircraft in exactly the same manner as they do now - well away from any targets, giving them plenty of time to maneuver.  So DWT will be useful against pretty much just one target:  lone BBs. Which, if you get above T6, are pretty vanishingly small.  And of course, DWT torps address none of the problems with why torps are launched the way they are: far away from their targets, allowing for large gaps in spreads that make dodging trivial, because of the game's broken detection capabilities (among other things).

So unless DWT can't ever be spotted by anything not running Hydro, or can never be spotted by aircraft AND any not by ship more than 200m away, it's just more lipstick.  If those are true, then we're back to the time of "invisible" torpedoes, and that's another whole bad thing.

Once again, it's adding a new "feature" that doesn't address the root cause of the problem, but instead brings its own host of issues.

[SurpriseMotherTrucker]

13 minutes ago, EAnybody said:

Actually, yes, I play DDs a lot. And I'm familiar with what DWT will do.

Torpedoes have well under 10% hit rate, most hovering in the 6-8% hit rate, according to the latest NA Server stats. It's certainly NOT all me, and that's just an ad hominem fallacy, anyway.  The answer to a problem is not "Become Unicum". The answer is fix the problem so that the AVERAGE player isn't hurt by the issue.

Because DWT will STILL absolutely be detectable by DDs and aircraft in exactly the same manner as they do now - well away from any targets, giving them plenty of time to maneuver.  So DWT will be useful against pretty much just one target:  lone BBs. Which, if you get above T6, are pretty vanishingly small.  And of course, DWT torps address none of the problems with why torps are launched the way they are: far away from their targets, allowing for large gaps in spreads that make dodging trivial, because of the game's broken detection capabilities (among other things).

So unless DWT can't ever be spotted by anything not running Hydro, or can never be spotted by aircraft AND any not by ship more than 200m away, it's just more lipstick.  If those are true, then we're back to the time of "invisible" torpedoes, and that's another whole bad thing.

Once again, it's adding a new "feature" that doesn't address the root cause of the problem, but instead brings its own host of issues.

 

Your idea is sound yet flawed. These are my own stats - Shima Type 93 Mod 3, 6% HR - Yugumo combo between Type 93 Mod 3 and F3 5% - Benson 14%. The difference between detection is roughly 500 meters but Yes it makes a difference. Another example is I just finished a game in Shima, 55 torps 6 hit, 101K damage with torpedoes only (107K total). Hell I'm not Unicum , most the time I'm "Below average", but the torpedoes aren't broken, yes they could be better but DW will be interesting. 

[Umikami]

19 hours ago, Pete_Darling said:

Pan-Asian DD's

Lot of work in that post Pete; good job!

Both you and @EAnybody have points to make, and you both make them well.

He's correct in that is isn't the damage that is the issue, it's getting the damn things to hit something in the first place. And he's right again when he says WoW has spent a lot of time and effort into making that difficult. They have, in nerf after nerf, in patch after patch.

But you are correct, Pete, when you say that DWT's have a significantly lower detection range than existing torpedus do; you are again correct when you say that even a small difference in detection range can have a huge difference in hit ratios for torps.

My opinion is that this is a wait and see issue because it isn't really taking anything away from anyone or their ships; it's adding a new dimension which will have to be, and I really hate using this term, "balanced in" (WoW being so very famous for getting that right on the first try).

So I would say we wait until we get some hit ratios on DWT's before we trash them entirely, while at the same time remembering that when @EAnybody says " The answer to a problem is not "Become Unicum", The answer is fix the problem so that the AVERAGE player isn't hurt by the issue" he is basically correct because regular torps, especially IJN torps, really need a detection range adjustment.

[Kunra_1]

How low are their detection range? If I'm not mistake Germans have lowest detection on their torps atm. I my self have a hard time hitting targets at the mid to higher tiers without ample planning and usually doing a large spread half way behind the indicator then dropping a tight spread on the indicator hoping they keep going and miss the one and go into the 4 ? .I can say when I take my genis out I have very little problems dodging ship torps. 

[dechion]

Just wondering what the advantages of the deep water torpedoes are, if any. The latest dev blog post about changing their ranges and detection range seems to have just made them a less capable version of the IJN torpedoes.

 

I'm not being sarcastic, I'm serious.

Take tier 4 for instance and compare The dev blog data with the type 6 on isokaze (det range data based on the LWM Isokaze review)

 

Isokaze 
Range 7 km
Speed 57 knots
Detection distance 1.2 km

No one immune

 

Verses 

 

ShenYang 
Range 6.4 km
Speed 52 knots 
Detection distance 1.1 km

DD's are immune

 

I didn't list ship stealth values For comparison or torpedo damage as I was unable to find the data on the pan-asian ship.